Help with Arcane Trickster

[ariel7]

Hey all, would like to know your experiences with your arcane tricksters. I've got a few tomes prepared, and am going to use them all on one last roll before the new mod. I'm considering either a drow or wf 18/2. I say considering, because this will be my final roll before the mod, and, indeed, for several months I believe. I should add that I intend on rerolling one established character for a better version of itself, but that hardly counts, to me. I'm nearly done capping all my characters, and want to make a really fun build that I can:

Solo the **** out of high end quests
potentially have a new main, if anything would ever be a more defining character for me than my "new" cleric.

Priorities in order:
Soloability
Survivability
Raid usefulness
Versatility
Efficiency in looting

I made a drow version that I rerolled at level 8 (I realized I made two mistakes, one taking a second rogue level at level 7, and finally being really high (relatively) in dex, which I feel was wasted, as I was too squishy, and insightful reflexes fixes the saves. I made a WF wizard that I deleted at level 6, it just wasn't fun yet. I capped a wf sorc in under a week and WOOOOOOW is he fun. (also being rerolled in probably 1-2 months, gear already saved for this purpose, but this is like a fine-tuning re-roll, and since Turbine can't help me get a new sigil, since he can't raid abbot, eff it, I'll reroll, and never but my sigil frame in the bank. What a waste of time.) I have capped a rogue. I have experience with pure sorc, pure rogue, and a melee rogue splash and am wanting to hear about how this will be different, what your opinions are of raid usefullness, and just how survivability is playing out at level 16 with such builds. Especially desired is experiences with a pure caster as compared to own experiences with a trickster build.

I really don't want to level another one up to 8 and say, oh, should done this/that, been prepared for x,y,z and so on. Especially with the changes in tomes that will be soon arriving, I want to make this build as perfect as I can. I'm the type of guy who is about to re-roll a 100 raid completing cleric that has +3s, a TON of raid gear but I put a level up point in the wrong spot once, and didn't take what I now consider to be perfect skill selections, and finally, I would have moved 2 points at creation to another stat. My intim is perfect. My two rangers are perfect (for me) my new cleric is perfect. I want this build to be, totally and absolutely perfect, as any attempt to reroll would not yield the same results due to impending changes.

Thank you for your time. I realize this is an odd sort of request, but I really am hoping for constructive feedback because its one of those things I seem to never get to be as ideal as I intend for it to be. I know I'm not here presenting a build, and asking for criticism, I'm taking a wholly different route. Asking for things YOU would have done, and evaluating them and re-defining what I've got planned based on that. I hope to allow for more creativity and less pre-defined responses from this.

[Monkey_Archer]

I have a 13wiz/2rogue/1barb (my first capped toon, main toon, and favorite to play)
Drow with 14/14/12/18/10/10 starting stats, 22/26/21/36/12/12 current stats
Uses greataxe for melee
Feats currently are toughness, spell pen, improved spell pen, mental toughness, improved mental toughness, heighten, maximise, empower, extend

My biggest regret was not maxing UMD.... (first toon, didnt realize the importance of it)

Personally, i have often thought about the advantages of going WF (selfhealing and all that) but i really dont know what i would give up for it... since an equivalent WF build would have to either start 16 int or loose points elsewhere.

With your order of priorities I would definatly reccommend WF though, mine isnt really a good solo build... (although its not terrible either) Soloability and survivability are definatly WF traits... while drow accel more at versitility.

My best advice to all arcane trickster builds: Dont underestimate melee capability.

Ive seen many 8 str builds out there that end up just being bad casters with evasion. With lower spell pen then pure casters, there are times when pulling out a vorpal is just the most effecient way to deal with stuff (thinking devils & orthons here). While other casters ignore, run from, or enervate/finger each one... I usually just toss one web and vorpal away

[ariel7]

Going to bed, but before I do had to respond to that reply. That looks like a very fun build, and quite similar to Oddlived's, but Drow version.

Wonderful advice and input. I have a couple of questions for you, though.

How, with three non-casting levels, but having spell pen and greater spell pen feats (and presumably the ap enhancements as well) do you find your casting ability using spells with sr?

Have you considered swapping a feat for quicken?
You appear to have a mid 20's reflex save by using dex instead of int (and saving a feat). This ever a problem, end-game raiding?
What % of your raids are conducted in-house (guild)? I know you from your posts on here, but I know that a lot of people have expectations that immediately come to the fore when seeing various class breakdowns. Was just curious as to how much its affected you.
How many hit points and spell points, if you don't mind me asking?

Many, many thanks for such a rapid, and detailed response.

[Monkey_Archer]

I have experience with pure sorc, pure rogue, and a melee rogue splash and am wanting to hear about how this will be different, what your opinions are of raid usefullness, and just how survivability is playing out at level 16 with such builds. Especially desired is experiences with a pure caster as compared to own experiences with a trickster build.

Wanted to respond to this separatly...

As far a raid usefulness i concerned, I cant say enough about a well build/geared trickster/ battle caster...

VOD for example... a good build can:
-disarm traps
-web/kill bats
-heal WF tank if neccessary
-contribute to dps and vorpal devils

Shroud:
how many casters have you seen that can:
-finger trogs
-dps trogs to save sp if portals are going slowly
-Solo either elemental in part 2
-Unlock doors
-Then jump in and Melee harry after debuffing/nuking

Abbot:
Obviously melee capability and evasion put you above any pure caster here

Hound:
Fog, fog, finger, finger, vorpal, vorpal, blah, blah


Survivability is a result of player skill IMO, and is not a result of any magical build or stat allocation. I only have 264 hp on mine (with only pot healing i might add) and survive through just about everything. High reflex, evasion, displacement, and stoneskin will go far. A drow version can easily achive enough dex for reflex, while a WF might be better suited taking insightful reflex then dumping dex to save stat points.

The key to raid usefulness though is gear (or pots )
Having less sp then pure casters may hurt a bit while leveling or newly capped, but will do well once you get those shroud items crafted, maybe a min 2, concordant opposition items, etc...

[Monkey_Archer]

How, with three non-casting levels, but having spell pen and greater spell pen feats (and presumably the ap enhancements as well) do you find your casting ability using spells with sr?

Only took 2 of the 3 AP enhancements, other things were more important then that last, expensive, 6 AP for +1 spell pen
Its an annoyance sometimes for sure... but it is only 4 below a pure caster...
While a pure caster can debuff harry by rolling an 11+ i need a 15+ (resulting in about 2x the sp usage, but often dont bother depending on the group)
Fingering trogs etc.. i have no troubles, Devils and orthons i tend to just vorpal or web.

Have you considered swapping a feat for quicken?

No. While valuable for a WF to self heal, its less important to my build, and often a waste of sp.... More of a playstyle thing...

You appear to have a mid 20's reflex save by using dex instead of int (and saving a feat). This ever a problem, end-game raiding?

7 Base
8 Dex
5 Resistance
2 Head of Good Fortune
4 GH
--
26

High enough to make a save on almost every spell cast by anything.... but obviously not nearly high enough for high end traps.

What % of your raids are conducted in-house (guild)? I know you from your posts on here, but I know that a lot of people have expectations that immediately come to the fore when seeing various class breakdowns. Was just curious as to how much its affected you.

About 0% now since my guild fell apart...
You can probably ask Loklyn/Nobodi/Everybodi/etc... I think he is in your guild now after bailing
Sometimes I have been denied from pugs, most likely due to build... (legion you know who you are ) But i dont blame them, it is a unique build that could have been built terribly gimped (like dumping intel for str or something)

How many hit points and spell points, if you don't mind me asking?

264 hp unbuffed (no shroud hp item because im lazy and have 9 other toons to worry about)
396 fully raged
1441 sp (had 1501 at one point but scrapped 2 levels of enhancements)

[Noctus]

Solo the **** out of high end quests

Priorities in order:
Soloability
Survivability
Raid usefulness
Versatility
Efficiency in looting

1st:
DEX on a Wizards is a plain waste of Buildpoints, as you will take Insightfull Reflexesanyway. And for AC it´s irrelevant, too.


18Wizard / 2 Rogue has an excellent soloability all by itself. But this class split on a Warforged has unparralled Survivability. No amount of Healscroll using and Pot drinking can make up fr the simple ability to cast a quickened Reconstruct on yourself!

Raid Usefullness:
Have all the usuall buffs, as well as an excellent DC on your offensive and CC spells.
---> Heighten is a must-have, as well as maxed out INT. Perhaps a Spellfocus in necromancy for better fingering, and/or SF:Conjuration for stickier all-time-favorite Webs. As well as 1 or 2 feats in Spell Penetration as in high level quests monsters have relevant Spell Resistance.

Versatility:
Comes with Wizard. Also max out UMD so you can use some Clerical scrolls in special situations. Also being able to take care of your own health through repair spells in a pinch amkes you much less depending on a group healer.


looting:
depeds on the new quests. Currently you can farm yourself silly in the Monastery and the reaver revuge explorer areas with such a build.




sample attribute distribution:
Strength 14
Dexterity 8
Constitution 18
Intelligence 18
Wisdom 6
Charisma 6

STR 14 for lower level soloing Master´s Touch + Greataxe is very nice, especially against CC´ed mobs, also dont get encumbereed in high level quests. STR 14 opens up a whole new level of versatility, compared to +2 CON for another 16 HP.....

[Monkey_Archer]

1st:
DEX on a Wizards is a plain waste of Buildpoints, as you will take Insightfull Reflexesanyway. And for AC it´s irrelevant, too.

Or insightful reflex is a waste of a feat... depends on how you look at it.
The drow version can easily achive high dex, while WF would be better suited for insightful reflex. Although rare, the ability to use ranged weapons can come in handy sometimes.

/agree with the rest of your post

[ariel7]

Is a third rogue level putting entirely too much strain on casting ability for a build like this? (Changing from 18-2 to 17-3)

In large part, I realize I'm building for mod 8 on the brink of mod 9. I know some of the choices I make are going to potentially have me just under the benchmarks I'm hoping to stay above. I have accepted this. My next area for greatest concern is in skills. With an 18 starting intel, and a +2 tome at level 1 (one of the last like this, certainly my last) I'm faced with a good number of build points. Assuming two possibilities, rogue at 1 and 11, or 1, 11 and 20 and all level ups in intelligence (with no +3 tomes until 20) I would have either (48 from rogue 1, 42 from wizard 1-6 (levels 2-7), 24 from wizard 7-9 (levels 8-10), 14 from rogue 2 (level 11), 32 from wizard 10-13 (levels 12-15), 36 from wizard 14-17 (levels 16-19) and then either 9 or 15) 205 or 211 at level 20, if I have made no mistakes.

In order to decide how many skill points were needed, I've attempted to ascertain the difficulty level for various current high-end needs.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=191131
Is the thread I've asked some pivotal questions...
What spot do you need to see the scorpions in monastery?
Amongst VoD, Rainbow, Monastery, what is the most difficult trap dc on normal? Elite?
What is the OL check for the doors in Shroud, part 3?
I suppose I should add...is it possibly to knock the door in fleshmakers? Certainly shroud doors can be knocked, but if I can knock most everything, then is there a reason to NOT scrap the points in Open Lock?

I've gotten no responses yet, and hope I can find the answers at some point. Having deleted my pure rogue...I can't actually find out on my own.

To arrive at the proper destination and come in on budget with my skill points I've assumed teh following for open locks/disable device: (again, assuming knock is not used instead of OL)

+7 bonus to both from +5 theives tools
4 from gh
15 item
1 from the VOM
gives me a nice +27 bonus from which to start
I figure, conservatively to have 18 start +4 levels, +2 tome, +6 item, +3 class = 33 intel @level 16 for a minimum additional +11 for disable, and if I go insightful reflexes and neglect dex, a -1 (we'll call it break even since I would use a dex tome by then) which gives us +38 disable, +27 open lock.

Using full ranks in disable I'd be at +57, which is good enough for most everything. (I AM ASSUMING it is for monastery, really need an answer for that) I know I'd need a good roll on optional chests in rainbow, but if that's all, I'm not going to stress about scrounging up ventilated bracers, the extra intel, etc.

8 ranks in OL would give me +35, and with a roll can open up to 55. This leaves me shy of the fleshmakers door, which is supposed to be between 58-68. With such a wide disparity, and unaware of another door so high (I can't really build for that door since I can just kill the stuff and get the key) Potentially better information will allow me to adjust my rankings here.

Search: I pretty much take the same +37 from disable, since it is an Intel based skill, minus the +7 from tools and sit at +30. 48 seems to be the high water mark, and a decent goal. Without seeing much reason to not be able to pop those boxes, and not having any information on the refuge quests, I'm forced to take full ranks here.

Spot: Little information is here. I know a mid 30's will be enough (have tested on my ranger 20s not enough, the mid 30s was enough) to see the scorpions in monastery. I'm thinking that with being geared for soloing I also don't want to skip to terribly much. I also take the biggest hit on spot, can't use tools or a good modifier on wisdom. Quite possibly I'm going to have a 6 wisdom. I'm not counting on doing that, but not wanting to base my plans on sunshiney, overly-optimistic projections either. This would set me up, (the base above, item, gh, etc) at +25 after taking a -2 hit from wisdom. My goal here is 40, so figuring 15 ranks.

Now we have what appears to be a baseline for rogue skills (pure trapping skills I should specify) of full ranks in DD and search, 3/4 in spot and 8 ranks (for now)in OL. So, 23 (level 20's worth, since we have a total of skill points by then)+23+8+15 = 69 At first it seems like we're way ahead, but then there are two things to think about. First, that's a 1-for-1 purchase rating @69. No jokes about how all my math ends up at that number. Since many of the skill points will be cross-class, that can double. Just for arguments sake, let's take it at 48 rogue skills (but maximum of 16 (ie 4 in each skill) from level 1, then 14 more at level 11. This is 30 directly into pure rogue skills. The other factor was other skills. I intend to be sorta sneaky also, and hide/move silent would be pretty much full ranks as well. UMD is quite useful. Concentration and balance are another two favorite skills. Of them, only concentration is a wizard skill.

Full ranks of Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, UMD, Balance and Search costs 6x23=138 at level 20. Add in 8 ranks of Open Lock, 15 of spot and we're now at 161. Uh-oh we don't have enough. Sometimes, in DDO, 161 > 205 and 211 both. And concentration wasn't even a factor.

Let's look at the build with only the 2 levels of rogue, and the pre-set big 4 of trapping + hiding. 69+46=115. 6 of those skills get 4 points at level 1, so out of our first 48 skill points, 24 are counting directly off of the 115 number, reducing it to 91. Level 11's 14 skill points drop this number down to 77. 77 remaining skill points, cross class = 144. We can't count any of the points from first level, they're being spent elsewhere. From 2-7 we have 42, from 8-10 we have 24, 12-15 we have 32, and finally 36 from levels 16-19. 42+24+32+36 =134. Level 20 gives us only 9 skill points if we're going wizard, leaving us 1 short. And no UMD, balance or concentration.

So here we are, looking into my brain as I analyze a problem and probably saying....this guy is weird. I recognize concentration can be made up for with quicken, but will mourn its loss anyways. Balance....an item and a gh will help a little. but I'm already going to bne so gear-centric swapping out to disarm at times its just one more and hoping to not be straw to break the camel's back. UMD? I like it, a lot. Being able to raise/throw heal scrolls is just sexy. A 3rd rogue level would allow for a lot more 1-for-1 purchases, so the difference is not just like 6, its more like 12. Could radically change the outlook of a key skill, and be the difference in, say having or not having UMD. Or sneak skill that high. Sneak skills are even harder to get that baseline I had before with the other rogue skills. Assuming dustless boots (+15 ms, +11 hide), 0 stat modifier, 4 gh, 1 vom I'm looking at a base of 20 move silently, 16 hide. I can possibly skimp on one or the other, but at 16 I'm only at 36, the minimum for monastery.

Quite possibly 2 separate shroud accessories for the tougher to hit skills (OL, Hide, MS are all dex, DD and search are int) would help since +6 is nothing at all to sneeze at.

I also know that invisibility can help with the hide portion. There just seems to be a better way to allocate my skill points, I am just not finding it at this point. What do you experienced guys think of my current issues on the skill point issue?

Thanks for your time. I know I'm writing a lot, but by bringing what I consider meat to the table, I hope that many will be able to get some thoughts and ideas from such posts, and to better the community.

[Monkey_Archer]

/Block of text hits you for 10 points of damage
Concentration Failure!

Read what I could, skimmed a bit...

First, I have no clue what the difficulty of what traps are where.... All i know is that there are no traps in the game i cant disable... Hell, I was disabling monestary traps with 8 neg levels

Anyway, I'm bad at planning out exact skill point choices per level.

Concentration is important! Max this using your wizard levels.

Starting with rogue level 1 max out all your rogue skills, jump, balance, tumble, hide/ms etc.... whatever is important

With 7 skill points per wizard level (1-6), I would do something like:
1 Concentration (1 pts)
0.5 search (1 pts)
0.5 Disable (1 pts)
1.0 UMD (2 pts)
0.5 Open Locks (1 pts)
0.5 Spot or Balance(1 pts)

Then use your higher wizard levels and second rogue level to max out open locks, and whatever other skills are important to you (like hide/MS, spot, etc..).

No, this will not max your search/disable... but honestly (unless they add some rediculouly hard trap in the future content) you wont need it. With low dex/cha It is more important to max out open locks/UMD and leave search/disable a bit behind (should end with at least 11 base with above plan)


IMO 3 rogue levels is perfectly acceptable by level 20. Level 17 wizard will still give you access to lvl 9 spells. And, if you want extra skills like hide/ms/balance I would actually reccomend it.


EDIT: Most important to me would be to keep UMD, Open locks and concentration maxed. Next would be to get search/disable to at least 10-15 base. Other skills are less important to me, but this is more determined by your playstyle.

[ariel7]

Tonight in the shroud a wizard in my guild used knock and rolled a 15+29 and had no problem with the door. That makes 44....so could I completely shave out open lock with no serious consequences? Is there something you REALLY need unlocked with rogue skills and the spell isn't enough?

[Monkey_Archer]

Tonight in the shroud a wizard in my guild used knock and rolled a 15+29 and had no problem with the door. That makes 44....so could I completely shave out open lock with no serious consequences? Is there something you REALLY need unlocked with rogue skills and the spell isn't enough?

Knock works fine in shroud etc... you can definatly scrap open lock skill in favor of stealth, or maxing search/disable. There are situations (usually high level locked doors and some chests) that knock will not work though. Up to you which is more important.

[Noctus]

Is a third rogue level putting entirely too much strain on casting ability for a build like this? (Changing from 18-2 to 17-3)

Yes! Dont do it, or you´ll regret it.

While you start with getting 7 points each level and later will get 8, as well as getting a nice boost when taking the 2nd rogue level. On average you have between 8 to 9 skillpoints to spend on each level up.

A decision you have to make if you want either Spot or UMD:
I´d clearly advocate Spot out of personal preference, and also as Spot is an all or nothing skill, either yu beat the traps Spot DC or you dont see it. While you already can use mostof the important UMD stuff (Stoneskin wands / resit energy wands , Teleport scrolls, wands for selfhealing....) by being a Warforged Wizard, without fail.

So maxing out the critical skills Concentration, Spot, Search, Disable --> 7 skillpoints.
Put some into Open lock, you can be around 5-8 ranks less than maxed and still get all the unlocked stuff, although you might have to roll several times, but as locks dont explode that is no issue. Which still leaves you with wiggle room for some dabbling in Jump or Balancem which are both nice-to-have skills.

And OL cant be made up for with Knock, there are many instances where Knock doesnt cut it and you need the real skill to open a door or a chest.

So here we are, looking into my brain as I analyze a problem and probably saying....this guy is weird. I recognize concentration can be made up for with quicken, but will mourn its loss anyways.

Dont do this. You will burn through your mana pool like there is no tomorrow and then be useless once you run dry. Trying to substitute Concentration through Quciken is a bad move.
Simply get Concentration and reserve Quicken for raid and endfight situations.

Hide, MS

Nobody expects you to have then, nobody uses them, you dont have the skillpoints to skill them on your build --> ignore them without any loss. Dont stretch an already tight build tooo thin.

balance

Not necessary for this build, by far, Just a nice to have skill if you have the spare skillpoints. Which you dont have. And you´ll do fine with the initial 4 points at level 1.

In order to decide how many skill points were needed, I've attempted to ascertain the difficulty level for various current high-end needs.

You dont need to "be so thorough". A good comparative benchmark is all you need to see if you are better or worse off.

And i have just that. My Human Warchanter with 2 levels of Rogue started with a 14 INT and ate a +2INT tome. All level ups into STR. Search and disable are the critical skills you need to have maxed. A failed spot can be compensated by Healing and Open Lock can be rolled several times and generally needs a lower threshold to work well.

With maxed skills and a base INT of 16 through all levels i never had any problems with traps, using appropriate skill items, the 1st tier of skillboost, the 1st tier of the search enhancement, Heroism Pots and Greater Heroism buff spells and wearing a +INT item just for the 6 secs when disabling traps.

So your Warforged Wizard/Rogue has a significant advantage of a much higher INT which directly raises Search and Disable my build could never archieve. At 16th level, endgame situation, you will have a INT of [18 base +4 level up +2 tome +3 wizard enhancement +6 item +1 exceptional bonus to INT on a easily to craft shroud weapon as your "boomstick" to raise all your Spell DCs by 1 , as well as your Search and Disable skills ---> ] INT 34.
Compared to my characters INT 22 when disabling traps. You you are simply 6 points ahead by the virtue of having a higher skillbase attribute.
All the other influences into the skill are the same, so no differences there. Both of us can get the same enhancements, skill items and boosting spells.

In conclusion:
I dont have any problems with traps, you are +6 points ahead in Disable and Search ---> You wont have any problems dealing with traps.

[ariel7]

100% pure gold getting advice from you guys. Thank you so much. Off to work on the finalized build.

[ariel7]

How about skipping spot? Sad thing about playing this game so long is you can either a.) remember them all, or b.) tell the barbarian to take a few steps forward lol...ok I'm mostly kidding about that. I'm 100% happy with my build if I can slack on spot and keep UMD for divine scrolling.

[sigtrent]

A. We are utterly different kinds of players. Capping in two weeks, unimaginable for me. Re rolling a 100+ raid character? I still have two characters I made the first week the game was live and only one is capped.

That said....

I think the 18/2 split is the best for arcane trickster.
I think WF is the superior choice for versatility and owning high level play.
From the way you describe your style I'd take Quicken for sure, if you are willing to eat the extra SP cost you can ditch concentration as a skill which is handy on such a build.

Spell pen and Greater Spell pen are a good way to compensate for the lost levels. It works for me on my Fighter 1 Wizard 15.

Spell points are more shallow on a trickster build. The loss in levels and the need to put enhancements elsewhere means less SP. You need to be conservative with casting unlike a full bore Sorc. On mine I melee a lot, sometimes 80+% of my kills are melee on my Wizard. I'm still using SP, I'm just using it for CC/Buffs due to the nature or duration of the quest.

On the topic of melee. The one reason to consider dex is if you want to Melee, in which case you might go Drow. Its easy to get Dex up to around 26+ while still keeping Int maxed out, and you can take TWF feats. Personally I off hand seeker or sneak attack weapons to bump damage and accuracy (for the sneak). I run effect weapons (WoP, Banish etc...) and sometimes damage proc heavy weapons. I can clean house with WoP/Backstab 5. The off hand weapon is more to power the main hand attacks that for the extra swings. I love it, but it does take some investment and its less synergystic with WF which is the superior racial choice IMO. Due to the stat bumps and enhancements etc, I don't need to use DP clickies or the like to get a good attack rate so long as I'm not pulling agro (which is rare but happens in weak parties). Mine sucks at solo play but thats due to a lack of raid gear or self healing in my build.

Such characters do make a mockery of pack space though. Between all the components, trapping gear, weapons, and armor options... it gets silly.

I've a feeling you might not like the build no matter how you make it. Its just not the kind of build that offers raw power. Its more about flexibility and a kind of desire to do everything all in one character.