The Hate Monster (mod 9 concept build)

[Thanimal]

With the Beta NDA finally lifted, it's time to publish this idea I've been thinking about that is designed to work well with new rules (especially Grazing Blows) and new abilities (especially the Defender line). I'm also expecting the AC "bar" is lowered just a little since it's been stated that Grazing Blows will "allow" them to reduce mob to-hit values.
As usual, this build is intended more to inspire others than to say "My build is the uber r0x0rs." (Heh, I can't even fake that kind of boasting.)
Also as usual, this is long. So strap in!

BUILD GOALS (note that some of these are exceeded by the example build below):
- Able to hold aggro reliably from hate against any build that is not trying to hold aggro
- Full time DR 7 to significantly mitigate Annoying Bee Sting damage in Mod 9
- Evasion
- By level 16 (just because I know the targets for that), AC of 60 "easily" (i.e. standard buffs and no rare equipment); 80 feasible. These targets would have been 65 and 85 before, so I am counting on the rumored reduction in to-hit that is paired with Grazing Blows.
- By level 16, saves of 25/30/25 with pretty standard equip/buffs

Nice to have:
- Able to "fake it" as a DPS build when holding aggro is not required
- Able to use a Tower Shield passably if turtling up for max DR becomes a good idea
- WF immunities
- Cure Wand use

It turns out the best build I came up with toward the above goals has the same level breakdown as The Monster. But it's a pretty different build, with significantly less DPS (though still "decent" when needed) and significantly better ability to tank.
My wife dubbed the concept The Hate Monster.

The Hate Monster
Warforged Fighter (Defender) 12/Ranger (Tempest) 6/Monk 2

Starting stats and targets AT 16 [point costs in brackets]
STR 16 [10] + 2 Tome + 3 fighter + 4 bumps + 6 item + 3 stance = 34
DEX 16 [10] + 2 Tome + 2 ranger + 6 item = 26
CON 11 [1] + 2 Tome + 2 wf + 6 item + 3 stance = 24
WIS 13 [8] + 2 Tome + 1 Monk + 6 item = 22
INT 11 [3] + 2 Tome = 13
CHA 6 [0]


Master feat list: Dodge, TWD, TWF, iTWF, gTWF, Khopesh, Focus: Slashing, Spec: Slashing, PA, CE, DRx4, iCrit, Toughness, Mobility, Spring Attack, FE: Undead, FE: Evil Outsider

EDIT: Although my original feat order was perfectly fine, I think the new order below is just slightly better. This allows me to get CE a little earlier - 10 instead of 14 - and CE is pretty key to go into GH because those guys hit hard. (The bad news is that this requires finding a +2 INT Tome a little earier, too.) This ordering also requires two respecs, but Dragonshards are pretty cheap these days, so I think it's worth it. (And one respec is free courtesy of Lockania.) If you're really opposed to paying for respecs, just take Mobility at 6 to being with, and then use Scimitars at 9, 10, 11. (Before iCrit hits at 9, Monk weapons are probably overall better.)

Level sequence and Feats
1: Ranger. +DR, FE: Undead (granted: Bow STR)
2: Ranger. (granted: TWF)
3: Monk. +DR, MBF: Dodge
4: Monk. MBF: Toughness
5: Fighter. FBF: TWD
6: Fighter. +DR, FBF: Khopesh Proficiency (changes to Mobility @ 12)
7: Fighter
8: Fighter. FBF: iTWF (changes to Spring Attack @ 14)
9: Fighter. iCrit: Slashing
10: Fighter. FBF: CE (Defender I hits here)
11: Ranger.
12: Ranger. (respec Khopesh to Mobility; then take Khopesh Proficiency here)
13: Ranger. FE: Evil Outsider
14: Ranger. (respec iTWF to Spring Attack; granted: iTWF) (Tempest I hits here)
15: Fighter. gTWF
16: Fighter. FBF: Power Attack
17: Fighter.
18: Fighter. +DR, FBF: Focus: Slashing
19: Fighter.
20: Fighter. FBF: Spec: Slashing (Defender II hits here)

So some stuff comes pretty darned late, here, especially for "DPS mode." But I think it makes a lot of sense to front-load the DR, because DR is effective against all hits in the early game. If you want to emphasize DPS more at lower levels, some rearrangement is very possible.

EDIT: I updated the AC for some additional equipment and options, and also noted the "known" stuff coming at 20, at the end.
EDIT: It turns out they did NOT take away the "Centered Bonus" in Mod 9 for characters who aren't actually centered. Apparently I completely imagined that. So free extra point of AC!

AC at 16
Without farming
10 base
9 DT docent
1 alchemical
8 dex
6 wis
5 CE
2 Tempest
5 Deflection
2 stance
1 Defender
1 Dodge feat
1 TWD
2 Chaosgarde
1 Centered Bonus
---
54

Standard self-buff
1 Haste
3 Bark
---
58

"Easy buffs"
+2 Ranger
+4 Bard
---
64 (actually a bit better than target)

With farming
3 Dodge
4 Insight
---
71

Slightly less likely buffs
+5 Paladin
+2 Recitation
---
78

Favored Enemy
79

Even more uber equipment
+2 DEX from +3 Tome and +3 exceptional bonus (Lightning Strike weapon)
+2 WIS from +3 Tome and +3 exceptional bonus (ring)
---
83

All-out defensive pose (Wind Stance and Kamas)
+1 DEX from Wind Stance
---
84

Short-term
+2 Shield clickie
---
86

Very short term
+3 Fighter AC boost (it's a prereq to Defender, might as well use it!)
---
89

Stuff that hits at 20
+1 Defender II
+1 Defender Stance II
---
91

Saves at 16
Without Heavy Farming
Fighter 8: 6/2/2
Ranger 6: 5/5/2
Monk 2: 3/3/3
Resist: 5/5/5
GH: 4/4/4
stance: 1/1/1
luck: 1/1/1
attributes: 7/8/6
enhancements: 0/0/1
---
32/29/25

Uberer equipment
luck: +1/+1/+1 (Head)
Stats: +0/+2/+2 (Tomes and exceptional on DEX and WIS)
Crafting: +1/+1/+1
---
34/33/29

Extended to 20
4 more fighter levels: +2/+2/+2
Stance II: +1/+1/+1
---
37/36/32

So takes some slightly uber stuff to hit the Reflex target, but certainly "pretty good." Btw, this is one of the big reasons I don't like the Fighter 18/Monk 2 option as much, since that path has noticeably worse Reflex save, making Evasion less of an asset.
Also note we do get the full effect of anybody with a Paladin aura.


Enhancements through 20 (not in any particular order)
12: Warforged Damage Reduction III
4: Ranger Tempest
6: Ranger Dex II
2: Monk Wis I
6: Fighter Haste Boost III
12: Fighter STR III
3: Fighter Intim II (prereq)
3: Fighter AC Boost II (prereq)
1: Fighter Item Defense I (prereq)
3: Fighter Toughness II (prereq that I actually want)
6: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
1: WF Construct Thinking I
2: WF Healer's Friend I
6: WF Brute Fighting III
6: WF Con II
3: Ranger Favored Damage II
1: Ranger Favored Defense I
1: Ranger Sprint Boost I
1: Fighter Khopesh Spec
1: WF Toughness I

Overall, enhancements weren't too ugly. There's always more useful stuff, but all the key stuff made it with a few nice-to-haves.
Note that Wind Stance should be taken early and used all the time until about level 9, but then probably dropped. It may then make a return at very high levels when the extra WF Hate can be backed off, to be used for Max Protect Mode if tanking an uber boss on Elite.

Hit points at 16
Without effort
20 base
19 Toughness
30 Toughness enhancements
112 CON (in stance)
80 Fighter
48 Ranger
16 Monk
20 IFL
20 Minos Hat (added 8/12/09)
---
365

With effort
+10 GFL
+10 favor award
+45 Shroud item
---
430

Extended to 20
+40 Fighter
+4 Toughness
+28 CON
---
502

EDIT 2009/10/06: I fixed an error in my computation, but I see I'm still coming up a little short of one-shot protection against Horgoth (elite) -- folks seems to report that target at about 530. This may well mean that the last two feats should not be the Focus/Spec pair for DPS, but instead two more Toughness feats, to bring this total to 548. Unfortunately, this requires a semi-awkward respec, since Toughness is not actually a Fighter Bonus feat. Would have to swap the feats from 9 and 12 to Toughness, and then use the feats at 18 and 20 for iCrit and Khopesh Proficiency. Totally doable, though, and may well be worth it. Also, I believe I'm going to have 6 enhancement points available upon hitting 20, as WF Brute Fighting will become unnessary with +100% hate. Those can be converted into +20 HP fairly trivially. So without any rage effects (which are annoying because they reduce AC, but that might be fine in some cases), that would be a "fairly comfortable" 568.

Skills
Skills are really an afterthought here, but it seems we get some, especially if willing to eat a +1 Tome at level 1. Jump and Balance seem pretty obvious for tanking utility, and I suppose there's no reason not to max Intimidate as a crowd control device for trash mobs. Then maybe some Spot to be able to see whom to tank??

EDIT: It's been pointed out by Monkey_Archer and Dworkin that it could be worth going for UMD as your "other skill." This is a little ugly, but theoretically by the end-game it might be much more of an asset than Spot.

12 Ranks + 2 (Charisma with a +2 Tome and +6 Item) + 5 (Seven Fingered Gloves) + 6 (Green Steel) + 2 (Head of Good Fortune) + 4 (GH) = 31 UMD. You gotta be a fairly uber power-gamer to get there, but if you are it might be the best way to go with skills. Of particular note: This gives you a reasonable shot at UMDing a Shield Wand (10th), which could keep you at peak AC during almost an entire end-game boss fight on Elite.

And finally, DPS. I'm not going to list out a pile of computations here, but I did my best to compare this build against a fully boosted Monster, and as long as both builds are the same level, have similar equipment, and the same party-wide buffs, it appears the +70% hate from Defender I stance and WF Brute Fighting III is more than enough to hold aggro. At level 20, this jumps to +120% hate, which is probably overkill.

In addition, if this build assumes DPS Mode (mainly by Power Attack instead of CE), then I believe it's able to hit about 70% of a fully boosted Monster. -30% is not a trivial drop, but at the same time it also means this build can be a non-negligible contributor in pure DPS situations. In fact, I guess I think this build will use Power Attack quite a lot.

Possibly worth noting: This build ranked first among tanks on Monkey_Archer's Shroud-DPS metric. (He may have been slightly generous in what feats/enhancements would fit, but it appears to me it would be on top of the tanks anyhow.)

NOTE: If you're interested in hate tanks, be sure to take a look at the Valenar Crusader, too: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=192261. It achieves many of the same goals, with slightly different strengths and weaknesses.

Turtle Tank Appendix (added 2009/10/07)
Later in this thread you'll see some discussion about how this build would approach ToD/elite boss tanking. For that particular task its AC is useless (indeed it's going to be VERY hard for any build to get sufficient AC it seems), and its HP are a bit light to just stand there and take it (even if take Toughness 3 times as hinted at above). However, it appears it can do a passable job using Intimidate and turtling, which theoretically might be useful in a few other spots, too. Here's some relevant info:

Intimidate score optimally equipped at level 20:
EDIT 2009/11/10: It seems I added this wrong before! And now that I've fixed that mistake, it seems I am well short of being hold Elite end-game bosses via Intimidate. But meanwhile there are some ways to greatly improve my HP for the possibility of Hate-based tanking with full-time healer covering me. UPDATES COMING EVENTUALLY!
23 ranks
+15 item (no proof yet of better -- PLEASE let me know via PM if you discover otherwise)
+3 CHA (6 base + 6 item + 4 Tome = 16)
+6 Shroud CHA skilz item
+4 GH
+2 luck (head)
+6 enhancements (2 Fighter enh are prereqs to Stalwart II and Stalwart II grants +4)
+2 Bard Song (hopefully available if tanking the game's hardest raid on Elite!)
---
61

DR in full turtle mode
11 BAB
15 Levik's shield
7 WF DR
4 Stalwart II turtling bonus
---
36

+13 if Docent of Defiance fires
---
49 sometimes

[rezo]

Looks good, going to roll one up and see how it works.

[Thanimal]

Looks good, going to roll one up and see how it works.

SWEET! I would love it if you can report your experience here. My playtime is never a lot, and in the summer it's even less, so I won't be personally advancing this build much any time soon. (Actually, full disclosure: I kinda need to unlock 32 point builds before I make this build. It really suffers as a 28.)

[Depravity]

I've been thinking of how to do this myself, especially if I can build something to run bracers of the demon consort - (on hit 20% each chance of a 30 point heal, dc 17 curse, inflict moderate wounds, and 1% chance of unavoidable level drain).

Iirc, chaosgarde and the stance are both +2 dodge bonuses, so they may not stack (as per chattering ring/DT armor).

Also, does anybody know if guard effects create hate? if so, builds like this may be able to stretch their aggro generation a bit by loading up on guard items.

Please keep us posted if you build one.

[Thanimal]

I've been thinking of how to do this myself, especially if I can build something to run bracers of the demon consort - (on hit 20% each chance of a 30 point heal, dc 17 curse, inflict moderate wounds, and 1% chance of unavoidable level drain).

Sounds fun, and may be pretty interesting if Grazing Blows trigger on-hit effects (which it's been claimed they do).

Iirc, chaosgarde and the stance are both +2 dodge bonuses, so they may not stack (as per chattering ring/DT armor).

I would be VERY surprised if they don't stack. That dodge rule only applies to two items with the same bonus.

Also, does anybody know if guard effects create hate? if so, builds like this may be able to stretch their aggro generation a bit by loading up on guard items.

Great question! I would think they should, but really have no evidence for that guess.

[Thanimal]

Hey where's Shade, btw? I've got a tank here that doesn't use Intimidate except for crowd control. Just like he's been saying we should!

[drsmooth]

I like this idea and have been trying to come up with a decent pure paladin aggro holder that uses the increased hate generation from the Defender of Siberys line. Right now I am trying stuck on going WF or dwarf. WF obviously have WF brute strength AP line that gives you even more hate on your melee attacks, but if the fighter defender Pre is eventually available to dwarves a la arcane archer to elves, I would go dwarf(Depending on requirements). Though two defender stances can't be activated, the fighter defender Pre has bonus AC(non-stance) per tier which would still work. If anyone has tried taking both defender lines on a pally/fighter during the Beta let me know what the results were

[Depravity]

I would be VERY surprised if they don't stack. That dodge rule only applies to two items with the same bonus.

Knowing the way things work around here, I'd half expect the code to see it as "a dodge bonus is a dodge bonus". Know of any items w/ a +1 dodge bonus on them I could test on a character with the dodge feat? I can't think of one, in which case this hasn't come up before.

[Thanimal]

I like this idea and have been trying to come up with a decent pure paladin aggro holder that uses the increased hate generation from the Defender of Siberys line. Right now I am trying stuck on going WF or dwarf. WF obviously have WF brute strength AP line that gives you even more hate on your melee attacks, but if the fighter defender Pre is eventually available to dwarves a la arcane archer to elves, I would go dwarf(Depending on requirements). Though two defender stances can't be activated, the fighter defender Pre has bonus AC(non-stance) per tier which would still work. If anyone has tried taking both defender lines on a pally/fighter during the Beta let me know what the results were

Just for completeness, there was one huge reason I didn't go Paladin and I didn't go Dwarf: DR. I feel that if we're not going to use a tower shield (and obviously we can't because then the DPS * hate isn't CLOSE to enough to hold aggro) then we need some non-trivial permanent DR for those annoying grazing blows. Paladin simply doesn't have the feats to fit enough DR. That said, it's possible to equip a Bloodrage Symbiont for full-time DR 5, and maybe that's enough.

[Thanimal]

Knowing the way things work around here, I'd half expect the code to see it as "a dodge bonus is a dodge bonus". Know of any items w/ a +1 dodge bonus on them I could test on a character with the dodge feat? I can't think of one, in which case this hasn't come up before.

The Dodge feat and the alchemical ritual (which is currently a Dodge bonus as far as I know) stack.

[Taojeff]

Just for completeness, there was one huge reason I didn't go Paladin and I didn't go Dwarf: DR. I feel that if we're not going to use a tower shield (and obviously we can't because then the DPS * hate isn't CLOSE to enough to hold aggro) then we need some non-trivial permanent DR for those annoying grazing blows. Paladin simply doesn't have the feats to fit enough DR. That said, it's possible to equip a Bloodrage Symbiont for full-time DR 5, and maybe that's enough.

I had no problem keeping aggro with my Dwarf Palidan, even with several frenzied wf in the party. Why cause with greensteel and exalted smite you are hitting for 600+ in some cases. Ok so with 200% hate its just like you hit for 1200 to that mob. Both divine sacrifince and exalted smite both got another level.

That being said. I am going to take the stalwart for my pally if they let dwarves get it for dwarven defender. Then you can take knight of the challice for some extra evil outsider damage (which is most of mobs in next mod). Now you have great ac, decent dps, great saves....

Another thing is if they let dwarves have the pre you can have room to splash in classes like pally/fighter/rogue etc.

[Thanimal]

I had no problem keeping aggro with my Dwarf Palidan, even with several frenzied wf in the party. Why cause with greensteel and exalted smite you are hitting for 600+ in some cases. Ok so with 200% hate its just like you hit for 1200 to that mob. Both divine sacrifince and exalted smite both got another level.

Good points. However, I don't think it's quite as obvious as you're saying that that's enough. Under ideal circumstance, the Monster has been shown at over 600 actual DPS per second (for 20 seconds). So even hitting for 1800 (600 actual with +200% hate of Defender III) gives you a 3-second "head start." That's plenty as long as you still have Smites, because you can do that again every 4 seconds. But once you run out of Smites, I hypothesize you will lose aggro soon thereafter??

In terms of peak possible DPS, the Frenzied WF isn't at the top. See http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906. (I use the full-buffed Monster as the mark for aggro generation, because I assume all those Rogue builds that can do more actual DPS are smart enough to take Subtle Backstabbing. And even if they aren't, whenever aggro turns to them their DPS drops like a stone in a vaccuum, allowing me to catch up quickly.)

But in any case, the concept I was aiming for was TWF for "actual" DPS. I probably should have just steered away from making any claims about S&B, since I hadn't given that any serious thought.

That being said. I am going to take the stalwart for my pally if they let dwarves get it for dwarven defender. Then you can take knight of the challice for some extra evil outsider damage (which is most of mobs in next mod). Now you have great ac, decent dps, great saves....

Another thing is if they let dwarves have the pre you can have room to splash in classes like pally/fighter/rogue etc.

Personally, I am going to be very surprised if they offer that to dwarves. Although they hinted at that quite a while back, I think once they thought it through they saw it could mean nobody ever built another tank who wasn't a Dwarf. Of course, I've been wrong before. At least once...

[drsmooth]

True pure Paladin might not be able to hold off a perfectly geared max dps'er, but shouldn't do that bad of a job. I mostly just wanted input on how effective(if it is) that non-intimitanking is. Defender 3 gets 200% and the Divine Righteousness boost(2xhate only 20secs tho). The DR for grazing blows shouldn't be a problem, as you can UMD stoneskin wands, or have an arcane cast on you.
I was also trying to create a decent pure class tank. I am actually not a fan of pure classing, hence why this is a challenge for me. I have one pure class character out of max slots and he is a WF wizard. I am also sick of way too many dwarf melees, but sometimes you just have to

[maddmatt70]

What is your projected DR? A side comment since the NDA is lifted all builds should list projected Damage Reduction due to grazing hits.

[Thanimal]

What is your projected DR? A side comment since the NDA is lifted all builds should list projected Damage Reduction due to grazing hits.

full-time 7

[Thanimal]

True pure Paladin might not be able to hold off a perfectly geared max dps'er, but shouldn't do that bad of a job. I mostly just wanted input on how effective(if it is) that non-intimitanking is. Defender 3 gets 200% and the Divine Righteousness boost(2xhate only 20secs tho). The DR for grazing blows shouldn't be a problem, as you can UMD stoneskin wands, or have an arcane cast on you.
I was also trying to create a decent pure class tank. I am actually not a fan of pure classing, hence why this is a challenge for me. I have one pure class character out of max slots and he is a WF wizard. I am also sick of way too many dwarf melees, but sometimes you just have to

I must admit I haven't tried it, but I'm pretty sure Stoneskin is not the answer to Grazing Blows. On Elite, you are getting hitting on 50% of all enemy attacks, which means in a crowded room your Stoneskin is going to last for about 20 seconds. Best case, this is going to get EXPENSIVE fast, and I think more realistically it's just not going to work.

If somebody with actual experience says otherwise, I'll definitely listen!

[Thanimal]

I mostly just wanted input on how effective(if it is) that non-intimitanking is.

Well, non-intimitanking is going to be exactly as effective as your hate-DPS, right? So I don't think it's a "general question" -- I think the question is whether you can out-hate everybody or not. I think any build that can out-aggro-generate the best DPS builds in the game can be expected to be effective in the roll that would normally be an intimitank. Any build that cannot will sometimes not be able to be a tank at all.

[CIuB]

One thing to bear in mind is that Dwarves will qualify for the dwarven defender line without being a fighter. ( But this will take away the possibility of having another fighter line).

This change will probably come MOD 10

So soon all low levels will be full of 7-15 year (Coming August 6th!) old drow fighters with 6 con, so it might be a good idea to get those builds capped now, even the ones that may be usefull later on. Not to mention getting that mad madstone XP before its nerfed

[cforce]

Good points. However, I don't think it's quite as obvious as you're saying that that's enough. Under ideal circumstance, the Monster has been shown at over 600 actual DPS per second (for 20 seconds). So even hitting for 1800 (600 actual with +200% hate of Defender III) gives you a 3-second "head start." That's plenty as long as you still have Smites, because you can do that again every 4 seconds. But once you run out of Smites, I hypothesize you will lose aggro soon thereafter??

Hm, this just reminded me of an important flip side that worth considering when trying to hate-tank with the new defender lines: when *they* get a head start.

I'm sure I shouldn't worry about that, though -- because it's not like anyone ever copies the highest DPS builds right off of the forum, and then plays them like an idiot, zerging into every crowd first...

...oh, wait.

So, when thinking about a situation where a Monster build gets, say, a 1.5-second head start, how long would it take the hate-tank to overtake it? I think it might be a (relatively) long time?

We could simply say, "well, they're being stupid, and deserve the extra aggro they take". However, one advantage of intimitanking is certainly "saving stupid players from themselves". (And the Cleric's SP bar.)

[Thanimal]

Hm, this just reminded me of an important flip side that worth considering when trying to hate-tank with the new defender lines: when *they* get a head start.

I'm sure I shouldn't worry about that, though -- because it's not like anyone ever copies the highest DPS builds right off of the forum, and then plays them like an idiot, zerging into every crowd first...

...oh, wait.

So, when thinking about a situation where a Monster build gets, say, a 1.5-second head start, how long would it take the hate-tank to overtake it? I think it might be a (relatively) long time?

We could simply say, "well, they're being stupid, and deserve the extra aggro they take". However, one advantage of intimitanking is certainly "saving stupid players from themselves". (And the Cleric's SP bar.)

Yeah, it's a serious issue. Here's some mitigating factors:
- The build does have Intimidate (and is arm-twisted into +6 Intim from enhancements), so often can gather trash mobs the old fashioned way. Hopefully in the "big" fights people will strategize more and let you engage first.
- This build actually has more DPS than some "DPS" builds, so with the Hate bonus it can catch up quickly against anything suboptimal.
- Ranger sprint boost to enter the battle first.
- To catch up against an optimal DPS build, it will probably have to switch PA on, and just eat the fact that it's a suboptimal tank. However, it's a better tank than that optimal DPS build, so would still rather have the aggro. And then you say "please don't do that, I'm trying to tank here."

Another thing that may be tough is if a Barbarian insists on throwing Intimidate, which trumps all hate aggro. About all you can do there is say "Let me do that so you can dominate in kills."