Will Ranger Capstone Stop the Ranged DPS Hate?

[Udinthrik]

You fail at thinking.

Of course you don't have to kite spellcasters. Therefore the fact that you're using a ranged weapon gives you no benefit, and you might as well melee him so he dies faster and you can work on some other mob.

no benifit?

next time a caster is shooting at you, try moving side to side. You can dogde a ton of damage spells in this game. I dont know if your supposed to be able to, but you can. Same with ranged mobs.

Hell, you can just twitch most of the time and the spell will go 20 feet off target for some reason, the further away you are the less you have to move.

Also if you are out of casting range alot of casters will just stand there like an idiot and throw axes at you instead of running into casting range.

[sisterjinx]

A LONG time ago I ran with this australian group of players who just blew my mind with their heavy repeaters. 3 of them were heavy repeater builds and NONE of us ever got to hit anything. They KNEW what they were doing. All mobs were dead before we reached them. we nicknamed them the oozies lol. I had never before and never since run with any ranged rangers that I so respected, admired, and wanted to be like.

It's not the ranged build it's the player behind it. If you KNOW how to play the build, if you don't pull aggro you can't kill or handle, if you don't make the party chase you and a mob, if you can play your part and do your part then GREAT but I've seldom met ranged rangers who understood all this.

9 times out of 10 I find myself telling the ranged ranger "I'm not going to chase it so if you can't kill it don't shoot at it". Usually upsets them but hey better that I warn them than have them wonder why they died.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

no harm trying

Well, I can play the assumtion game too.. such as with over 7,500 posts you are "commenting" more than you are "contributing" said DPS...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

WoP is currently effective DPS .. in august, WoE will replace it -- by the time the mob gets to you, they're 0 str and autocrit. A well-built repeater character is a terror in most quests .. especially if they've learned to circle-kite once the mobs close to melee range.

A LONG time ago I ran with this australian group of players who just blew my mind with their heavy repeaters. 3 of them were heavy repeater builds and NONE of us ever got to hit anything. They KNEW what they were doing. All mobs were dead before we reached them.

QFT.

Why would you say this? Wop is still better then WoE other then for rogues. Wop mobs are stunned and you get autocrit is > then just autocrit.

That is false. You amusingly leave out the fact while you walk your melee toon into position, a ranged ranger has probably ALREADY DROPPED monster to 0.

[VKhaun]

I agree, but doesnt it bother you that a class is considered completely useless? Should the players that play ranged DPS really be ostrisized?

Its not their fault, they are part of the game, hell its not even a multiclass. We need to blame the devs not punish the players.

---> IMHO <---

1) Yes it bothers EVERYONE that archery is weak. Another example would be spell focus enhancements and spell lines. Lots of people come to DDO and try to make a necromancer, or a fire specialist, and find themselves gimped just like the guy who assumes an elf with a bow will do fine DPS.




2) Kicking depends on the group... If you have a PUG that grabs six people and then says 'What can we do with what we've got?' that's all fine and dandy. Play as you like, on what you like. Same with guild groups that know eachother, or a purpose-made group that has completed or failed it's original quest target.

But when you have an LFM for a specific quest on a specific difficulty, either you can handle the quest, or you can't. If you can't, you need more contribution. Archers are going to find themselves on the wrong side of this question very often. Even if you brought him and succeeded, you could have beaten it without him unless he's got some kind of special effect on a bow the tanks at hand just happen to be missing from their weapons. This isn't archery winning though, this is coincidence.

Just like you'd kick someone out for zerging ahead and getting killed to replace them with a team player fighter that contributes, or kick a cleric who doesn't bother to tell you he's a 'battle' cleric and then refuses to heal, you'd kick him in order to get a real healer not neccesarily because you have a problem with battle clerics or zergers or archers, just that you need the contribution in order to complete your goal.



3) Yes. The devs are to blame for the state of the classes, but the players are to blame for staying with the class in a game totally team oriented, but only allowing six players to a group. In the harbor and early game? Sure, they actually do really well there sometimes and anything putting out a damage number can make the magic happen, but once you realize you're not pulling your weight you should be asking what you're doing wrong and talking to be people about a reroll.

I have no sympathy for ANY kind of gimped out character above lv10. Archer, arcane/melee mix, nothing. There's no excuse for joining a purpose-made group to go take a specific quest, when you can't actually contribute to taking down that specific quest. That is being rude to, and imposing upon, other players. Make PUG's and take what you can, or join zerg groups and find a way to make them go faster, even if it's just pulling levers/open doors for them or wand whipping.

My first character is a gimp with ~100hp at lv15. It's beyond aggro management and into incidental damage dropping me, or having to be so careful I barely contribute. Unless they need me for some specific task, no other INT rune openers applying, or they need buffage and DDoor's... I'm not coming. She's a farm toon for plat and she was my favor grinder, for making characters with what I've learned. Not a burden for others to carry. She only even hit 16 by accident killing so many rats and idiots in the Orchard of the Macabre.

[VKhaun]

no benifit?

next time a caster is shooting at you, try moving side to side. You can dogde a ton of damage spells in this game. I dont know if your supposed to be able to, but you can. Same with ranged mobs.

Hell, you can just twitch most of the time and the spell will go 20 feet off target for some reason, the further away you are the less you have to move.

Melee can jump over or roll around casters casting and not be hit by projectile spells. This is not a ranged benefit this is a disparity in player skill.

They shoot 20ft away because they were making an attempt at leading the target when you were moving side to side. If you run in a straight line at a constant speed they can still hit you with rays and arrows sometimes/usually because they do this. Not that you would do that, just explaining the phenomenon.

[VKhaun]

Rangers weren't meant to do massive ranged dps obviously but the are still REALLY nice to have around, when they're not idiots anyways.. rangers are supposed to kill the casters from a distance so nobody gets flamestruck and ect. A good ranger doesn't jump around kiting all the mobs while the party yells at him to stop moving.. A good rangers kills the casters weakens the mobs then switches to his duel wielding weapons and helps clean up to.

The +25% increase won't help OVERALL dps for ranged attacks but will help eliminate enemies from a distance faster, killing casters weakening mobs 25% more effectively, which is pretty **** nice in a lot of cases.

This.

Making a pure archer is choosing to focus on a part of your class in an unintended way, instead of making the class strong overall. Just like people trying to make pure necros who won't buff, or pure pro trap disablers who don't want to fight, or monks with all four stances. You're elf bow archer running away all night long kiting with the worst weapon type in the game needs to be told to bust out his swords and plan to do so often. Tempest or not, he's got the full TWF line and favored enemy bonuses.

[Udinthrik]

Melee can jump over or roll around casters casting and not be hit by projectile spells. This is not a ranged benefit this is a disparity in player skill.

They shoot 20ft away because they were making an attempt at leading the target when you were moving side to side. If you run in a straight line at a constant speed they can still hit you with rays and arrows sometimes/usually because they do this. Not that you would do that, just explaining the phenomenon.

the benifit is its much easier with a ranger.

[VKhaun]

the benifit is its much easier with a ranger.

How so?...

See him casting, move.

If anything it'd be harder to see with melee guys in your way.

[Aranticus]

A LONG time ago I ran with this australian group of players who just blew my mind with their heavy repeaters. 3 of them were heavy repeater builds and NONE of us ever got to hit anything. They KNEW what they were doing. All mobs were dead before we reached them. we nicknamed them the oozies lol. I had never before and never since run with any ranged rangers that I so respected, admired, and wanted to be like.

It's not the ranged build it's the player behind it. If you KNOW how to play the build, if you don't pull aggro you can't kill or handle, if you don't make the party chase you and a mob, if you can play your part and do your part then GREAT but I've seldom met ranged rangers who understood all this.

9 times out of 10 I find myself telling the ranged ranger "I'm not going to chase it so if you can't kill it don't shoot at it". Usually upsets them but hey better that I warn them than have them wonder why they died.

note the red words

[Aranticus]

QFT.

That is B.S. You amusingly leave out the fact while you walk your melee toon into position, a ranged ranger has probably ALREADY DROPPED monster to 0.

if those 3 guys were using wop repeaters, yes prolly thats what happened, but if you are talking about dps repeaters, it aint gonna happen in current context unless you are a L16 in a L5 dungeon. since you have 3 yrs of experience, tons of characters, i'm sure you can tell me how many mobs a melee toon, and how many mobs a ranged toon can take down in 2 mins.

and the ranged ranger is probably useless after dropping the mob to 0 con

[Aranticus]

but once you realize you're not pulling your weight you should be asking what you're doing wrong and talking to be people about a reroll

you'll be surprised how resistant some people are to help and advice. my list is full of people who are too proud to open up. if you play on khyber, then you might probably hear that there was a 500 hp cleric who led a shroud today in which 40 odd pots are used....

no he still insists hes right

[Aranticus]

This.

Making a pure archer is choosing to focus on a part of your class in an unintended way, instead of making the class strong overall. Just like people trying to make pure necros who won't buff, or pure pro trap disablers who don't want to fight, or monks with all four stances. You're elf bow archer running away all night long kiting with the worst weapon type in the game needs to be told to bust out his swords and plan to do so often. Tempest or not, he's got the full TWF line and favored enemy bonuses.

qft

it isnt just fair to say ranged suck. if we are looking at a ranged toon with multishot, then its pretty simple. with MS active, the ranged toons dps is very hard to match. unfortunately, you can only use it 20s per 2 min. the rest of the 1min 40s is a period of extremely low dps. whip out 1 or 2 melee weapon and start hacking away. when the cooldown is over, bring out the bow!

the same thing can be said about melee players. put 1 freaking ranged weapon in your pack! when you need to hit something you cant reach, at least be able to range it. its pretty much pointless to melee an air elemental, grab a bow or returning weapon to hit it

[Blazer]

it isnt just fair to say ranged suck. if we are looking at a ranged toon with multishot, then its pretty simple. with MS active, the ranged toons dps is very hard to match. unfortunately, you can only use it 20s per 2 min. the rest of the 1min 40s is a period of extremely low dps. whip out 1 or 2 melee weapon and start hacking away. when the cooldown is over, bring out the bow!

the same thing can be said about melee players. put 1 freaking ranged weapon in your pack! when you need to hit something you cant reach, at least be able to range it. its pretty much pointless to melee an air elemental, grab a bow or returning weapon to hit it

I wish more people would take note of this post and think about it. The point is to be flexible in whatever you do. Most paladins/fighter/barbarians/rogues I know carry one bow or one returning weapon for the odd occasion where it's needed, but the sheer number of rangers who carry ZERO bows is amazing to me. I have lost count of how many shrouds I've been in when, in part 3, a ranger is done his puzzle first and is just standing there at the entrance to the center room with the water, not using a bow to break the crystals so water can be run. The last four times I've seen this I've asked and the reply was always a variation of "bow rangers are gimp".

[jmonty]

I have lost count of how many shrouds I've been in when, in part 3, a ranger is done his puzzle first and is just standing there at the entrance to the center room with the water, not using a bow to break the crystals so water can be run. The last four times I've seen this I've asked and the reply was always a variation of "bow rangers are gimp".

mind boggling..

my ranger mainly uses axes but i also carry silver arrows to put in my holy/pure good bow to many shot the end guy in the shroud..

a WoP bow [or even 'just' puncturing] and manyshot is also win, as well as a transmuter to help finish off the hound.. etc, etc..

[Raithe]

Yes it bothers EVERYONE that archery is weak.

While archery is almost as weak as I'd like, it isn't quite, so I guess you could accurately say that it bothers me, but only to a very small degree.

I have no sympathy for ANY kind of gimped out character above lv10. Archer, arcane/melee mix, nothing.

No sympathy?

It's funny that hybrid ranged/melee combat is just now receiving some acceptance in a thread like this. From my perspective, almost every ranger, many rogues, and a good percentage of other melee that I've grouped with have been practicing it since launch. Much of my own style of gameplay was copied from the observations of these other players. A specific example that popped in my head upon reading the above quote was a run of Western Threnal elite back when the level cap was 10. I was somewhat impressed by a warforged fighter/wizard who basically solo'd the entire series. I'm not going to list the name here, but people on Thelanis would recognize it because a similar character (perhaps the same one) is still joining groups for high level content 3 years later (and obviously succeeding).

I wonder why others (particularly those with a January 2009 join date) aren't able to notice the same examples I have...?

[transtemporal]

agro is something alot of players do not understand. agro while dps dependant is not determined by dps alone. given no agro management items, skills, agro dependant on sustained damage OVER time. in vod, a monk can hold agro so long as he is given some lead time to build up agro to such a high level that the rest of the players will not grab agro

against a raid boss, a smart range player will let melees grab the agro and hold it. when the agro is firm, the range player can then let loose multishot or nukage if caster. the agro will not jump to the range player. i would say, the ranged player you are with is much better than most as he knows how to control agro

Correct. But in this case, it wasn't that the ranged guy let us establish aggro first. This is a semi-regular group so we all attack at the same time to determine who the hero is gonna be. (Admittedly, I cheat a little from time to time by using intimi at the start to grab aggro onto the melees).

[maddmatt70]

QFT.



That is B.S. You amusingly leave out the fact while you walk your melee toon into position, a ranged ranger has probably ALREADY DROPPED monster to 0.

Again huh. The statement was W/e > W/P. This is incorrect I would much rather use a w/p longbow over a w/e longbow and I don't think there ia any disputing this fact. On a melee rogue with crippling strike w/e is > then w/p in mod 9, but for everyone else assuming they all have access to w/p in the party w/p is > then w/e.

[Hadrian]

I'd say it's situational depending on the attributes of the target.

The W/P stun is great, but if something has twice as much con as strength or dex, it might be best to damage a different stat for the faster auto-crit.

Also, if monster ACs do increase in later content, this gives another situation where dex damage can be a reasonable option.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Again huh. The statement was W/e > W/P. This is incorrect I would much rather use a w/p longbow over a w/e longbow and I don't think there ia any disputing this fact. On a melee rogue with crippling strike w/e is > then w/p in mod 9, but for everyone else assuming they all have access to w/p in the party w/p is > then w/e.

It would be so boring to play with anyone with your mindset. "ONLY ONE WAY TO GO." Its a good thing so few listen to people on this forum who use math as the only source of information. This is NOT pnp. there are many player skill dynamics and monster types and other random situations involved that can EASILY make a weapon type preferable over another. EVERYTHING in DDO is situational... including w/p and w/e.

You cant even pay attention to the conversation. The post you replied to was discussing RANGED.