True Paladin

[toughguyjoe]

3) Divine sacrifice works very well on undead. 7d6 i believe for tier 2. + pally capstone is what 4d6? when it comes out.

He isn't talking about Divine Sacrifice. He said: Divine Light.

Divine light is an enhancement a paladin or cleric can take that expends a use of their turn undead to deal damage to undead in the immediate area around the character.

I've never used it so i don't remember its damage or AP cost but my guess on cost is 1/2/3.

I read it once, found it to be beneath my notice.

[Aranticus]

1) Divine righteousnes. for Agro management. I doubt many will do the amount of DPS necessary to pull agro should a pally use this ability.

divine righteous is based on the dps you do. the more dps the greater the hate and more importantly, if you invest in the dps to do hate, other abilities will suffer. unless you splash mnk to get wisdom bonus, it is very difficult to have a sufficient ac on a twf pally, go snb you generate so little dps that your hate doesnt matter

2) It doesnt matter that Intim is a cross class skill a well built/equiped pally should be able to intim all but the most dificult mobs if they so choose to spend the skill points for it.

wrong, it matters. a pally lacks the intim enhancements of a fighter (+4) and being a cross class skill 1/2 the skills (+12), kensai PRC gives +3 or defender for +4. thats at least a difference of ~20. try making it up with cha. just in case you have not made an intimitank before, my current fighter spent 2 feats, 13 APs to get 60 intimidate (vod orthons are approx at 45 intim, suulo norm is 56, hound norm 70s). trash mobs do not need intim, they are desposed easily enough so why spend skill points trying to get trash?

3) Divine sacrifice works very well on undead. 7d6 i believe for tier 2. + pally capstone is what 4d6? when it comes out.

10hp 1 sp, cooldown ~3s in which a pure fighter would have made up the difference based on higher str and specialisation. wait, against non "pally FE" a fighter pulls way ahead!

4) Heal and Rez abilites are still nice to have. The nice thing is it is a part of the character build and does not require UMD or other resources (scrolls and wands).

My whole point is a well built pally may not be the best healer, highest dps, etc etc. but can help any party in a variety of ways.

true that the heal and rez is part of the character build and is very nice to have. i cant remember how many times my old pally survived due to LoH. problem is investing in these abilities tear into my ability to do stuff. more LoH = APs spent, more heal = more devotion = APs spent, where do they come from?

the problem i have isnt with the pally but rather how intensive they are in terms of AP investment, feat investment to make a really good build which rocks. a pally is awesome to play mod 3-5. i had a pally who could do alot of stuff due to its immunities and abilities. with the entry of shroud, you can craft a triple neg item and in 1 item, confer most of a pallys immunity to any class. thats the gripe i have

[Mr_Ed7]

1)My whole point is a well built pally may not be the best healer, highest dps, etc etc. but can help any party in a variety of ways.

My point too.

Also, If you are not shield-blocking, then you may be causing needless mana waste.

I can tell, that many times, rogues, clerics, casters, and rangers are quite pleased that I am holding the door for them...

...and the two-weapon psychos are on the ouchy side of my shield. It is actually fun to play as such...really its fun.

No I am not kidding I am having fun playing my Paladin, which was actually the real point of the OP!

LoL

[Aranticus]

My point too.

Also, If you are not shield-blocking, then you may be causing needless mana waste.

I can tell, that many times, rogues, clerics, casters, and rangers are quite pleased that I am holding the door for them...

why shield block when you have an untouchable ac?

...and the two-weapon psychos are on the ouchy side of my shield. It is actually fun to play as such...really its fun.

what ac are you at? my twf fighter runs around with 60+ ac. when there are mobs ie like suulomades, i put on my shield and tank too

No I am not kidding I am having fun playing my Paladin, which was actually the real point of the OP!

LoL

you keep saying stuff that people can do, if not better

[toughguyjoe]

Also, If you are not shield-blocking, then you may be causing needless mana waste.

You just said that A pally SHOULD be standing in the doorway shield blocking because otherwise the cleric is going to have to sit there and heal him? Who exactly do you play with? I had no idea people were firewalling a doorway and having everyone plug it up and use the bad AI of the game in their favor.

That kinda sounds like someone an old school pen and paper player wouldn't be much into? ya dig?

I can tell, that many times, rogues, clerics, casters, and rangers are quite pleased that I am holding the door for them...

Just remember whose cloak is whose and you'll keep your job. Just don't expect any tips.

[Alcides]

Last I played Dungeons & Dragons we did not use such terminology.

This may be Dungeons and Dragons Online. However, it's still an MMO. And it can basically watered down to a resource management game. The trick to any encounter is to minimize the amount of resources used to beat that encounter. PnP arguments don't apply in this context, as the combat system in DDO takes into account more variables than PnP rules. You can further argue if you like, but this game is basically no different in essence than any other MMO with the tank, dps, healer paradigms. Paladin's are backup healers, not true healers. The only 2 true healers this game has is clerics, and bards. And honestly, if you want to be a melee group healer you should be a monk and use ki to heal the party which consumes no resources.

[Riorik]

Your 40+ score is but an exaggeration I am assuming. We are not talking about a hypothetical situation, I have shield-blocked the door, and I have healed.

It's a realistic example - not an exaggeration. Isn't the concentration check something like 15+damage taken?

I can be a secondary killer & healer though.

I'd have to disagree with this one. There are far better ways to be a killer or a healer. At best, from what you describe, you're going to be a third tier melee build which puts you pretty close to Wizard/Sorceror damage.

On healing...second tier healers are usually healing spec'd Bards or multi-class Clerics that have splashed in Monk/Fighter/Paladin. You'd also be a third tier or worse healer.

I guess what I'm trying to write is...every character has the potential to do a limited amount of stuff really well. It's a matter of focus - you can spread out and de-focus, but there's still a finite amount of stuff you can be good at. Show me a character good at everything and I think an analysis would show it's only mediocre at everything.

What I'd say is, you suggested your build would like to focus on a few things - mainly being able to block a door and backup heal and then you'd be ok on melee -- and this from your PnP background.

Most of the responses (from actually playing the game) are, not only are you wrong, but you're dead wrong. Your character will be nowhere near as effective as you think even doing the tasks that you believe you are 'focused' to do...which just means the rest of it is further down the hill. Your idea of secondary focus is in the category of "just plain awful".

And - I even write that from the perspective of a guy that doesn't really play uber-optimized builds. Pulling a number from the sky, mine might be 80%+ of the maximum DPS potential but they do some stuff other than just DPS as a tradeoff...and I like/prefer that style of play.

I'd say, don't multiclass if you don't want to, but there are much better way's to do your character than what you suggest...just follow some of the advice.

[Thrudh]

wrong, it matters. a pally lacks the intim enhancements of a fighter (+4) and being a cross class skill 1/2 the skills (+12), kensai PRC gives +3 or defender for +4. thats at least a difference of ~20. try making it up with cha. just in case you have not made an intimitank before, my current fighter spent 2 feats, 13 APs to get 60 intimidate (vod orthons are approx at 45 intim, suulo norm is 56, hound norm 70s). trash mobs do not need intim, they are desposed easily enough so why spend skill points trying to get trash?

FYI, there are plenty of times where intimidating trash is quite useful...

Also, the orthans in VoD normal can be intimidated consistently with a 40 intimidate...

[Thrudh]

10hp 1 sp, cooldown ~3s in which a pure fighter would have made up the difference based on higher str and specialisation. wait, against non "pally FE" a fighter pulls way ahead!

It's 5 hp and 1 sp... very easy to spam it constantly... 7d6 every 3 seconds is not bad

And don't forget Divine Might and Divine Favor... Divine Might III gives +6 damage to every hit... Divine Favor gives +3 damage..

That's +9 damage that works on everything...

The devs have done a good job evening out all the classes... Barbarians have rage, rangers have favored enemies, Paladins have the above, Fighters have the specialization feats..

And then of course, in Mod 9, everyone (except rangers) get even more DPS...

[Thrudh]

Clearly you are not well versed with the Raiding Holy Trinity of MMOs. You have 3 character archetypes.
1. Tank - An individual who manages the aggro, and mitigates a majority of the incoming damage of an encounter, in order to minimize resources consumed to beat said encounter.
2. DPS - An individual who maximizes damage done to mobs during an encounter in order to reduce encounter duration.
3. Healer - An individual who keeps the party alive during an encounter, with a minimal consumption of resources used during the encounter.

You forgot:

4. Crowd Control

And buffing is pretty important... where does that fit in?

[Alcides]

You forgot:

4. Crowd Control

And buffing is pretty important... where does that fit in?

I can see an argument for Crowd Control as an archetype. However, I personally believe that it's the job of tanks to handle a majority of the aggro in an encounter (95%+). Not to mention when a DPS archetype can kill a mob in under 5 seconds, while a tank has it's aggro...What's the point of having a Crowd Control archetype? Also when a mob is immune to Crowd Control, it's normally not immune to damage. So I would say Crowd Control is a secondary function.

Buffing is a also secondary function. You can slap a cleric and bard in a party have all the essential buff spells covered (save Stoneskin).

[Thrudh]

I can see an argument for Crowd Control as an archetype. However, I personally believe that it's the job of tanks to handle a majority of the aggro in an encounter (95%+). Not to mention when a DPS archetype can kill a mob in under 5 seconds, while a tank has it's aggro...What's the point of having a Crowd Control archetype? Also when a mob is immune to Crowd Control, it's normally not immune to damage. So I would say Crowd Control is a secondary function.

Buffing is a also secondary function. You can slap a cleric and bard in a party have all the essential buff spells covered (save Stoneskin).

Tanks controlling aggro is more of a archetype in other MMOs...

We don't see tanks controlling aggro as much in DDO...

Crowd Control spells are much more effective in DDO...

I would actually say, in THIS game, Crowd Control is one of the three archetypes, and tanks (using hate or intimidate) are a subset of CC.

[baddax]

true that the heal and rez is part of the character build and is very nice to have. i cant remember how many times my old pally survived due to LoH. problem is investing in these abilities tear into my ability to do stuff. more LoH = APs spent, more heal = more devotion = APs spent, where do they come from?

the problem i have isnt with the pally but rather how intensive they are in terms of AP investment, feat investment to make a really good build which rocks. a pally is awesome to play mod 3-5. i had a pally who could do alot of stuff due to its immunities and abilities. with the entry of shroud, you can craft a triple neg item and in 1 item, confer most of a pallys immunity to any class. thats the gripe i have

ok, now i understand your point. I have not looked at the cost/benifit of third tier pally pre's. As for the enhancement costs as is yeah some are to expensive and force tough decisions. For example on my 14 pally 2monk i do not cary the Rez ability for this reason.

As a side note when are Red named Orthons considered trash?

[baddax]

Why all the pally hate, i dont see people complaining about no DPS pure bards?
Lastly +4 to AC and +4 to saves for an entire quest is nothing to sneeze at.

[Alcides]

Tanks controlling aggro is more of a archetype in other MMOs...

We don't see tanks controlling aggro as much in DDO...

Crowd Control spells are much more effective in DDO...

I would actually say, in THIS game, Crowd Control is one of the three archetypes, and tanks (using hate or intimidate) are a subset of CC.

I would say that is a correct assessment for the level 16 content of this game; however, I would say that is not quite a correct assessment of the level 20 content to come. First of all, Crowd Control spells are dependent upon saving throws. Intimidate checks are not. As levels increase, saving throw DCs plateau, but saving throws continue to increase. So you end up in situations where spells that require saving throws become ineffective. The only exception to this (in DDO) is Bard Fascinate since the spell DC is actually a skill check. So it will continue to scale as level increases indefinitely. This however is limited to the number of songs the bard can use.

Intimidate scales indefinitely with level as well, and has no saving throw. As long as an intimidate check meets or exceeds a mobs Intimidate DC, it is controlled. The only time that intimidate doesn't work is when the mob has a blanket immunity to intimidate. I have no idea how melee hate is coded into the game. But I have noticed that iterative attack monkeys, seem to hold solid aggro.

Synopsis: Crowd control spells are decent at the moment, but that style of play is going to fall by the wayside. They just won't be able to compete with intimidate.

[Alcides]

Why all the pally hate, i dont see people complaining about no DPS pure bards?
Lastly +4 to AC and +4 to saves for an entire quest is nothing to sneeze at.

A bard can be built to be a pretty reasonable DPSer. I've had no groups complain about my GTWF dwarven warchanter :P

[Aranticus]

FYI, there are plenty of times where intimidating trash is quite useful...

Also, the orthans in VoD normal can be intimidated consistently with a 40 intimidate...

when a player opts for intimidate, its all or none. consistently means you can still fail. as an intimidator you cannot afford to fail.

just imagine, the orthons are tearing the party apart and the clerics need a breather to use a pot, you hit intimidate, roll a 2 = fail! the party just wiped. if you had a no fail save, it will not be a last ditch attempt as you know you can grab agro anytime, anywhere

[Aranticus]

It's 5 hp and 1 sp... very easy to spam it constantly... 7d6 every 3 seconds is not bad

And don't forget Divine Might and Divine Favor... Divine Might III gives +6 damage to every hit... Divine Favor gives +3 damage..

That's +9 damage that works on everything...

The devs have done a good job evening out all the classes... Barbarians have rage, rangers have favored enemies, Paladins have the above, Fighters have the specialization feats..

And then of course, in Mod 9, everyone (except rangers) get even more DPS...

my bad on the 5 hp

yeah the +9 damage rocks but like what i said, a strength built pally is likely to be alot better at dealing damage on undead and EOs. but to what end? if you want dps, its 17 dex for twf (you could go 15 and use a tome), max dps = higher str. this means lower con and cha, so less hp or inability to get higher tier DM (every tier DM ~4str). there is alot of trade off as a pally

[Aranticus]

Tanks controlling aggro is more of a archetype in other MMOs...

We don't see tanks controlling aggro as much in DDO...

you dun? try running around with tanks having 50+ intim

Crowd Control spells are much more effective in DDO...

I would actually say, in THIS game, Crowd Control is one of the three archetypes, and tanks (using hate or intimidate) are a subset of CC.

how are you going to cc a raid boss? i can sit in the centre of dq2, turtle up, spam intim and never have her leave my side. this frees up the rest of the party to 1. nuke her, 2. kill trash, 3. never having to look back and wondering if lailat is on your ass

[Aranticus]

ok, now i understand your point. I have not looked at the cost/benifit of third tier pally pre's. As for the enhancement costs as is yeah some are to expensive and force tough decisions. For example on my 14 pally 2monk i do not cary the Rez ability for this reason.

As a side note when are Red named Orthons considered trash?

they are trash coz my 70 ac tank can intim them, kill probably 1 by myself (depending on how good the party is), allow the others to be taken down by the party without trouble and me still having my temp hitpoints