True Paladin

[Dexxaan]

To point out though why so many of us 'poo-poo' the idea of a healing S&B paladin is because at level 16 and beyond your Cure Serious Wounds for 50-75 hitpoints and your tiny spell point pool won't even come close to comparing to just one Cleric's Heal for 300+ hitpoints. Honestly, you could fill the niche you want better by taking rogue at level 1 and upping UMD thus being able to use Heal Scrolls.
What you want is a well rounded tank and backup healer. I really do get that. But what you will end up with at level 16 is a Paladin that does S&B level damage, not enough Action Points in DPS enhancements, no intimidate (there is no "holding the door" in 90% of the game past level 10), and puny heals (almost any bard/rogue mix or sorcerer can all use Heal scrolls and thus outheal you). No one wants a low dps non-tank non-healer in their party or raid group. If you want to go pure paladin I CAN suggest some fun build alternatives.

Val

Darnit Valezra
Now look what you´ve done to my morning fun! Telling him what the EZ button is....

He was prolly going to make some old school retort or how the impurities of a sinful conception need cleansing......

Now we´ll never know......

[Valezra]

Darnit Valezra
Now look what you´ve done to my morning fun! Telling him what the EZ button is....

He was prolly going to make some old school retort or how the impurities of a sinful conception need cleansing......

Now we´ll never know......

Well, we're spamming replies pretty fast maybe he missed it. Procrastinating at work too Dex. :-)

Val

[Dexxaan]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

Yes and by Level 20 a pure Paladin (even Elven....) can do so, but your not confused..your just lazy or not comprehending the OP´s "Healing Paladin" focus.

(You know CHA 28 CON 14 WIS 28 STR 14, Emp Healing, Mental Toughness, Imp. Mental Toughness, etc....)

A sorcerer swinging away with their Spell Pen and Potency scepters can contribute to DPS.

Val

LOL

[Thelmallen]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

When the cap was 14 there was no such thing as a tempest ranger in the game. That prestige class totally blew the concept of DPS out of the water. I'm a paladin guy, I have a pure paladin and an evasion tempest paladin and my tempest blows the doors off the pure paladin as far as damage output. Not even close. The pure spikes for more with one crit exalted smite but continual DPS goes to the tempest.

I think with the defender PrE class they'll add for paladins, those pure sword and shield pally's can have a newfound roll but we'll see.

[BattleCircle]

In my limited experience, I have found that a timi pally is always a welcome addition to a party.

Not so much with a healing pally

[Valezra]

When the cap was 14 there was no such thing as a tempest ranger in the game. That prestige class totally blew the concept of DPS out of the water. I'm a paladin guy, I have a pure paladin and an evasion tempest paladin and my tempest blows the doors off the pure paladin as far as damage output. Not even close. The pure spikes for more with one crit exalted smite but continual DPS goes to the tempest.

I think with the defender PrE class they'll add for paladins, those pure sword and shield pally's can have a newfound roll but we'll see.

S&B pally DoS will still have trouble holding aggro. Most high DPS tempests will pull the boss right off of them.

Val

[Djimonte]

You will unfortunately be disapointed in what you are building as you hit above lvl 12 and start taking real hard damage.
There is a way to be the paladin you want without taking splash class and that is diplomacy.
Unfortunately though that course will tick off everyone around you and I wouldn't recomend it.
The paladin class has never been recieved well it seems by the gaming community other than its usefullness as a splash for loh, divine health, fear immunity.... etc and those are bout it.
This and adding 2 lvls rogue made an exploit build. In hindsight rogue class should never have been allowed to class with a paladin build.
Even further stating absolutely no class should have been allowed to cross class with a paladin would have been even better and the designers actually create the paladin into what the class actually could be and become later on, but it would be kinda silly for a Knight to ride a horse into a dungeon and being chained to one sword maybe would have become even more frustrating.
Also if we were allowed evil alignment here I being a betting man would wager the paladin population would grow 4 fold as there is an appeal to evil things.
If you like staying pure do it explore what is offered for the class and work on its weaknesses and expand on its strengths.

[Mr_Ed7]

Maybe I'm a bit confused but I had a s&b pure elven longsword Paladin capped at 14 and I had zero issues with contributing DPS to the party.

Right, even if there are "issues" I can not see them being of some consequence.

I believe that if you have the nerfiest character in the raid...its ok, there are 11 other in the group...

While, I think comparing the numbers most of the posters are correct, but I think really in "end-game" it will be ok, and not result in 11 others doing the /point & /laugh.

[Mr_Ed7]

Running with your Door Holding Healing Paladin? I would too. Specialized in "Turning & Running" (....some Ranger boosts FTW!)


Sry. Mr Ed.....but I´m procrastinating at work and your thread topic is just a delicious morsel for a hungry man.

I appreciate the point of view, I have been grinding teeth though waiting for the "your opinion is wrong therefore you are a jerK"...posts still

[Mr_Ed7]

Darnit Valezra
Now look what you´ve done to my morning fun! Telling him what the EZ button is....

He was prolly going to make some old school retort or how the impurities of a sinful conception need cleansing......

Now we´ll never know......

Sorry where I come from Paladins & Rogues do not marry.
Hey worse, comes to worse I find that you guys were right, and I only play with guildies because everyone will cry "GIMP! GIMP!" lol

[Ralmeth]

Sorry I am pure Paladin...Old School Player!

I'm an old school player too, so I hear you. I also started out only ever wanting to play a pure, aggro-magnet / DPS Paladin. However after playing DDO for a while (maybe to level 6 or so when I first started playing), I realized much to my disappointment that I couldn't hold aggro. Thus I learned the value of intimidate. Once I remade my character with a Fighter splash I learned it was soooo much easier to grab aggro with that one skill. I also really hated the idea of splashing Rogue and or Fighter with Paladin, but there really is true, game-play value in doing so, specifically on a Defensive build.

Skills
I also understand your comment stating that they didn't give Paladins intimidate for a reason. However bear in mind that when Turbine translated PnP D&D into DDO, they simply copied the class skills that characters had in PnP. Turbine implemented the usefulness PnP skills to what worked best in a video game, however they never went back and adjusted class skills to what each class actually needs. I've been playing a Paladin for over a couple of years and I can tell you that none of the Paladin class skills are what you actually need. The useful ones are UMD, Intimidate, Balance, Jump and some points into tumble. On my newest Pally, I don't have a single point into heal, diplomacy or concentration. It's natural to think you should be putting points into the class skills your given, but in real game play you will get knocked on the ground by monsters and you will want to get up as fast as you can. You will need to make countless jumps in so many quests. Intimidate is awesome for grabbing aggro. UMD is awesome for granting so much more utility in using unlimited raise dead scrolls, being able to use race restricted items, teleport scrolls to get you around town faster, etc.

Low vs High Levels
Another big issue I found in DDO is that what works at low levels does not necessarily work at high levels. For example, fighting S&B at low levels works great. It's really easy to pick up a shield to give you a decent AC to prevent against damage. One weapon in your main hand lets you kill things quickly. However, when you get to high level, the developers had to balance difficulty based on the fact that some characters have really high DPS from TWF, Tempest, Rage, etc. As a result many monsters have really high HP levels and that single handed weapon will take forever to kill something. So you can fight S&B at high levels but you need to be prepared that your DPS is going to be much lower than any other DPS focused character out there. So IMHO if you love the idea of the iconic Paladin with a shield in the off-hand, put that shield to good use and be able to grab aggro. Use that shield, combined with hunting for high AC items to get a high AC, or to give you the ability to shield block and gain decent DR when you do. If you don't have the aggro-grabbing ability, then essentially you will be a really low DPS melee. What stinks about this is that it can be disappointing that you can't contribute to the group the way you used to at low levels. I really hate this about DDO, but that is the way the game currently is.

[jmonty]

Sorry where I come from Paladins & Rogues do not marry.
Hey worse, comes to worse I find that you guys were right, and I only play with guildies because everyone will cry "GIMP! GIMP!" lol

ha ha!

i don't think the forums are an accurate representation of the game population. a few weeks ago i ran my original 28 point build pally in the hound because all my other characters were on timer and no one even noticed. he even got a few kills! with zeal and all the other self buffs it wasn't an issue.

my 2 fighter / 14 pally is a far better tank though. [32 point build, i was more experienced when i rolled him, etc]

[Sehenry03]

I understand making a build you wanna enjoy...but ask yourself this - Do I really want to be a liability to my group EVERY TIME I join them? your build will work just fine if you stop at lvl 10. Once you hit Gianthold though your gonna be in trouble. To get enough mana to be able to heal your gonna have to take the mana feats and a pally is already feat starved. To be able to heal while being pounded on your gonna need quicken...again tough while being feat starved. You would be a LOT better off to make a battle cleric and stand in the door cause then you will have plenty of mana and the ability to hold off those mobs easier.

Make your toon how YOU want but you might wanna consider the fact that no matter how you think you will be in end game your also disregarding the advice of some of the better players who know how it works and not basing it on theories. Just because a paladin doesn't have intimidate as a primary skill does not mean they don't want you to take it. its never been a primary but people still work it in cause with all the Cha they get it works. No matter how you build your pally your NEVER gonna be able to heal effectively. Your heals won't keep people alive once you hit GH and the ogres start pummeling your rogue cause you can't do enough DPS to pull him off. personally i would never dream of saying I'll let the rest of the group do everything cause there are 11 of them and can make up for my ineffectiveness but thats just me

[Mr_Ed7]

Yes someone hit it on the head, "the iconic" Paladin is what I am playing.

As far as my healing goes, I never imagined it to be on-par with a cleric. Just useful. I mean who could not use a 100 hp Lay of Hands, or my 1000 point heal-all, or a Raise Dead?

Again I am prepped with Resist, and Lesser Resrore at the moment also. I am fully prepped to play field-medic.

I have two figthers with intimidate, capped (S&B "iconic" builds btw), and a capped Barbarian with intimidate...I mean really Paladins too? That is enough intimidate characters for me.

I will make the best of him and the abilities that I seem to think fit best.

Some of the suggestions have been to give the Paladin Intimidate (a barb & fighter skill) to give the Paladin two-weapons (Ranger ability) and even to give the Paladin levels in other classes!

Again, going for the iconic Paladin all of that would be wrong for my guy, for my build.

The other thing is, that I have heard the end-game doom scenarios before on builds and it just never seems to pan-out in the ways that people say.

Hopefully, I will be shield-walling for the other guy who did not listen, the Ranger shooting a bow.

[Dexxaan]

Right, even if there are "issues" I can not see them being of some consequence.

I believe that if you have the nerfiest character in the raid...its ok, there are 11 other in the group...

While, I think comparing the numbers most of the posters are correct, but I think really in "end-game" it will be ok, and not result in 11 others doing the /point & /laugh.

I think I found a new Sig Quote. May I use it?

...snip.... personally i would never dream of saying I'll let the rest of the group do everything cause there are 11 of them and can make up for my ineffectiveness but thats just me

Hey now. Thats my possible Sig Quote you're messing with!

[Dexxaan]

...snip...Hopefully, I will be shield-walling for the other guy who did not listen, the Ranger shooting a bow.

Oh no... no you didn't! LMAO see? Now you'r gonna get us started on the other end of the Spectrum.... The Aggro & Run Build.

[Mr_Ed7]

Its true though, as much as one player/character may suck others will pull them through.

If I do not have my guy wielding two-weapons with a spalsh of rogue, monk, or coke while intimidating...it really does not matter, because there will probably be 3 other characters who are doing just exactly that.

[Mhykke]

The other thing is, that I have heard the end-game doom scenarios before on builds and it just never seems to pan-out in the ways that people say.

Of course it doesn't, if you take the attitude that 11 others are there to pull you through, as you seem to do here:

I believe that if you have the nerfiest character in the raid...its ok, there are 11 other in the group...

With that attitude, nothing matters. Roll up a brand new character, have someone carry you in their backpack, get shroud ready at level 1, run the shroud over and over in someone's backpack collecting ingredients. Run all the raids and roll for raid loot, I mean, it's not like you'll fail b/c you're on a lvl 1, there are 11 other people doing the work, correct?

So in that scenario, it doesn't matter, b/c no build is bad, b/c there are others that will carry that build through.

[Mr_Ed7]

Of course it doesn't, if you take the attitude that 11 others are there to pull you through, as you seem to do here:




With that attitude, nothing matters. Roll up a brand new character, have someone carry you in their backpack, get shroud ready at level 1, run the shroud over and over in someone's backpack collecting ingredients. Run all the raids and roll for raid loot, I mean, it's not like you'll fail b/c you're on a lvl 1, there are 11 other people doing the work, correct?

So in that scenario, it doesn't matter, b/c no build is bad, b/c there are others that will carry that build through.

Exactly my point, the exaggerated inference, the doom & gloom, nobody will play with me etc.

It does not happen Mhylke, everything gets done I do my part.

[Mhykke]

Exactly my point, the exaggerated inference, the doom & gloom, nobody will play with me etc.

It does not happen Mhylke, everything gets done I do my part.

Slow down, I didn't go that far.

I agree in one raid, or a few raids, letting 11 others carry you won't matter. After a while? People are going to remember "oh, that's joe shmoe, he hasn't done anything in any raid I've ever been in, take the other guy"......