Wounders vs. Puncturers

[Halifex]

Assuming you do NOT have a WOP weapon, which is more desireable ... wounding or puncturing?

Obviously, the answer is directly related to the Armor Class of the target.

But can we analyze the situation further?

Yes ...

The breakeven point between wounders (that are not puncturers) and puncturers (that are not wounders) is a roll of 8 out of d20. In other words, when your total attack bonus + 8 = the armor class of the target the two weapons are about equivalent in terms of CON damage dealt to the target over a long time.

When the Armor Class is higher, a roll greater than 8 is required to hit. In this case, puncturing weapons tend to do more CON damage. The higher the Armor Class, the more advantageous the puncturer is. If the target's Armor Class is lower (or your Total Attack bonus is higher), such that a roll of 7 or even less hits, then wounders are more advantageous.

Obviously, WOP's are better, but are out of reach price-wise for many of us.

This analysis assumes that the odds of rolling a 1, 2, 3, ... 20 are equally 5% each. I have become less convinced that this is the case. I suspect Turbine alters the "die rolls" based on a number of factors, but I have no data so I will not say anything further.

[Visty]

wounding in offhand, puncturing in mainhand..problem solved

[SableShadow]

If you run a high threat weapon (e.g. rapier) with Improved Crit, the puncturer has a very small (fractional con damage) lead on a wounder. If you don't have high threat puncturing + improved crit, wounders pull ahead.

If you run with people who stone/hold stuff a lot, the puncturer pulls way ahead as a result of the auto crits.

[Halifex]

Oops ... realized a critical missing piece of information:

This analysis assumed a shortsword, dagger, repeater and that the user had Improved Critical feat.

With a rapier, the numbers are probably different, favoring puncturing over wounders even more. With picks, the numbers probably favor wounders.

I left rapiers out since they tend to be pricey whether puncturing or WOP (very pricey).

[SableShadow]

Oops ... realized a critical missing piece of information:

This analysis assumed a shortsword, dagger, repeater and that the user had Improved Critical feat.

With a rapier, the numbers are probably different, favoring puncturing over wounders even more. With picks, the numbers probably favor wounders.

I left rapiers out since they tend to be pricey whether puncturing or WOP (very pricey).

You have a Bloodstone? Or other crit confirming additions? Because you're assuming auto-confirm on your crits.

[sigtrent]

I find puncturing better for the most part.

There are lots of ways to increase the effectiveness of puncturing and none to increase the effectiveness of wounding (that wouldn't also help puncturing as well).

Now with the new mod changes, where they are allowing limited stat damage on bosses, a wounder might get you to -10 on a stat as fast as a puncturing since 10 attacks can happen really fast.

I think puncturing might also be "cheaper" in terms of the + equivalent on the weapon but I'm not sure of that. I did a whole show on that but I don't recall.

[Elurian]

On average, with improved crit, puncturing damage:

Rapier: 1.05 con dmg per hit (3.5*30%)
SS: .7 (3.5*20%)

Does not include crit confirmation boosts, or any type of threat extension, and assumes threat always = confirmation.

[Lithic]

You are wrong that puncturers pull ahead of wounders at a high AC. Worst case is you need a 20 to hit. That means you need a 20 to confirm (assuming a 20 after a 20 is an autoconfirm, I havent tested this). The result is that your puncturer on high AC mobs will do 1d6 damage on 1 hit our of 400, while the same wounder does at least 1 con damage per 20 hits (or 20 per 400 swings).

Puncturers only pull ahead of wounders if you auto confirm, which means hitting on a 2 (or an 8 with a bloodstone), and even then the wounders win out until you find a puncturing rapier with either keen, or imp. crit.

For any strenght build, this means you want +5 wounders (any weapon), followed by w/p weapons (pick, dagger, ss, rapier in increasing order of preference).

Dex builds might want puncturers instead only because the effect ignores damage resistance.

[Elurian]

Lithic is correct under most circumstances at high AC (i.e. wounders > puncturers).

However, Halifex is correct under *some* high AC circumstances, when there is a high crit confirmation bonus.

Under normal circumstances, as AC vs. attack bonus rises, the percentage probability of each hit (not each swing) being a threat also increases. I.e., 30% of all rapier swings with IC will be threats, but if you're only hitting on 15+ anyway, all hits will be threats. This is typically offset by the need to confirm (i.e., hitting on 15+, 30% of threats will be confirmed, so we're right back to the (.3*3.5 = 1.05) calculation for the puncturer's avg con dmg per hit (not swing) vs the 1 for the wounder. Crit confirmation boosts can skew this math in favor of the puncturer (i.e., threat on 100% of swings needing 15+ to hit, confirm bonus of 2 = 40% confirmation or an average of 1.4 con dmg per hit for the puncturer vs. 1 for the wounder). Note that with a 20 required to hit, you'd need to have +5 crit confirmation for the puncturer to come out ahead of the wounder. Anything below that and the wounder wins.

Edit: Also, as Sig pointed out, puncturers eat less of an enhancement (at least they did a year and a half ago ), so all other things being equal, a level-restricted puncturer will have a higher enhancement bonus than a wounder.

[Hadrian]

Puncturers are generally always better due to seeker bonuses. If you're wearing a bloodstone, the puncturer is always better unless your to hit is so low that it's not really reasonable in DDO. (Edit: I made the assumption we're always talking about rapiers with keen or improved crit, because it's not that expensive or hard to get a "just of puncturing" rapier.)

Also, it sounded like there was a misconception posted here somewhere. Just in case someone is unaware, confirmation on a roll of 1 is possible if that roll covers the AC. There is no auto-fail on a 1 for confirmations. I confirmed this by seeing a confirmation on a 1 in my combat log or while watching the die roll display on several occasions.

[winsom]

wounding in offhand, puncturing in mainhand..problem solved

Yes. This combo lets you combine other weapon properties, like 'of backstabbing' and Seeker, which together will be very useful for dealing critical damage once CON 0 is changed to no longer be instant death.

[TechNoFear]

I calc wounding is better in unless you have a punc wep with effective crit range of 6 or greater.
A punct rapier is marginally better than any wounder in the best case scenario (need a 1 to hit gives W:19 P:21)

A Bloodstone etc changes the equation dramatically.
A punc rapier && Bloodstone is up to 7.35 times as effective.

With a bloodstone a crit range of 4 punct wep will out perform a wounder until you hit 75% or more of the time (more hits are better for a wounder).


In all other cases wounders are better (if you can do damage).


assuming;
1 always misses
20 always hits
1 confirms crit
all hits do damage



The algorithm to calc puncturing damage is;

TR * D6 * (( MOD + CC )- #H) * 0.05

If you need a 1 to hit MOD = 20
otherwise MOD == 21

TR == MINIMUM(Num Hits/20 att or threat range of wep inc any increases)
#H == num required to hit
D6 == 3.5 ave damage
CC == Crit confirming adds ie seeker or Crit Accuraccy

[DragoonPenguin]

You have a Bloodstone? Or other crit confirming additions? Because you're assuming auto-confirm on your crits.

yeah, the op's assumption seems backward to me regarding crits. if you have a harder time hitting the mob you sure as hell arent going to crit the mob any easier. for toons with low to hit: unless your party is making mobs autocrit (or you are through spells or whatever) use wounders (or your spells :P). if you dont miss: puncturing rapiers are marginally more effective on paper (19 vs 21 con dmg every 20 hits), though in practice they seem to blow wounders out of the water.

[TechNoFear]

TR == 2
No Bloodstone

to hit	Hits	Wound	Punc	WoP   MaxCrit	Confirm	
20	1	1	0.175	1.175	1	5%		
19	2	2	0.7	2.7	2	10%		
18	3	3	1.05	4.05	2	15%		
17	4	4	1.4	5.4	2	20%		
16	5	5	1.75	6.75	2	25%		
15	6	6	2.1	8.1	2	30%		
14	7	7	2.45	9.45	2	35%		
13	8	8	2.8	10.8	2	40%		
12	9	9	3.15	12.15	2	45%		
11	10	10	3.5	13.5	2	50%		
10	11	11	3.85	14.85	2	55%		
9	12	12	4.2	16.2	2	60%		
8	13	13	4.55	17.55	2	65%		
7	14	14	4.9	18.9	2	70%		
6	15	15	5.25	20.25	2	75%		
5	16	16	5.6	21.6	2	80%		
4	17	17	5.95	22.95	2	85%		
3	18	18	6.3	24.3	2	90%		
2	19	19	6.65	25.65	2	95%		
1	19	19	7	26	2	100%		
	
TR == 2
Bloodstone	
						
to hit	Hits	Wound	Punc	WoP   MaxCrits	Confirm
20	1	1	1.225	2.225	1	35%		
19	2	2	2.8	4.8	2	40%		
18	3	3	3.15	6.15	2	45%		
17	4	4	3.5	7.5	2	50%		
16	5	5	3.85	8.85	2	55%		
15	6	6	4.2	10.2	2	60%		
14	7	7	4.55	11.55	2	65%		
13	8	8	4.9	12.9	2	70%		
12	9	9	5.25	14.25	2	75%		
11	10	10	5.6	15.6	2	80%		
10	11	11	5.95	16.95	2	85%		
9	12	12	6.3	18.3	2	90%		
8	13	13	6.65	19.65	2	95%		
7	14	14	7	21	2	100%		
6	15	15	7	22	2	100%		
5	16	16	7	23	2	100%		
4	17	17	7	24	2	100%		
3	18	18	7	25	2	100%		
2	19	19	7	26	2	100%		
1	19	19	7	26	2	100%		

TR == 4
No Bloodstone

to hit	Hits	Wound	Punc	WoP   MaxCrits	Confirm	
20	1	1	0.175	1.175	1	5%		
19	2	2	0.7	2.7	2	10%		
18	3	3	1.575	4.575	3	15%		
17	4	4	2.8	6.8	4	20%		
16	5	5	3.5	8.5	4	25%		
15	6	6	4.2	10.2	4	30%		
14	7	7	4.9	11.9	4	35%		
13	8	8	5.6	13.6	4	40%		
12	9	9	6.3	15.3	4	45%		
11	10	10	7	17	4	50%		
10	11	11	7.7	18.7	4	55%		
9	12	12	8.4	20.4	4	60%		
8	13	13	9.1	22.1	4	65%		
7	14	14	9.8	23.8	4	70%		
6	15	15	10.5	25.5	4	75%		
5	16	16	11.2	27.2	4	80%		
4	17	17	11.9	28.9	4	85%		
3	18	18	12.6	30.6	4	90%		
2	19	19	13.3	32.3	4	95%		
1	19	19	14	33	4	100%	

TR == 4
Bloodstone	
								
to hit	Hits	Wound	Punc	WoP   MaxCrits	Confirm	
20	1	1	1.225	2.225	1	35%		
19	2	2	2.8	4.8	2	40%		
18	3	3	4.725	7.725	3	45%		
17	4	4	7	11	4	50%		
16	5	5	7.7	12.7	4	55%		
15	6	6	8.4	14.4	4	60%		
14	7	7	9.1	16.1	4	65%		
13	8	8	9.8	17.8	4	70%		
12	9	9	10.5	19.5	4	75%		
11	10	10	11.2	21.2	4	80%		
10	11	11	11.9	22.9	4	85%		
9	12	12	12.6	24.6	4	90%		
8	13	13	13.3	26.3	4	95%		
7	14	14	14	28	4	100%		
6	15	15	14	29	4	100%		
5	16	16	14	30	4	100%		
4	17	17	14	31	4	100%		
3	18	18	14	32	4	100%		
2	19	19	14	33	4	100%		
1	19	19	14	33	4	100%		

TR == 6
No Bloodstone

to hit	Hits	Wound	Punc	WoP   MaxCrits	Confirm
20	1	1	0.175	1.175	1	5%		
19	2	2	0.7	2.7	2	10%		
18	3	3	1.575	4.575	3	15%		
17	4	4	2.8	6.8	4	20%		
16	5	5	4.375	9.375	5	25%		
15	6	6	6.3	12.3	6	30%		
14	7	7	7.35	14.35	6	35%		
13	8	8	8.4	16.4	6	40%		
12	9	9	9.45	18.45	6	45%		
11	10	10	10.5	20.5	6	50%		
10	11	11	11.55	22.55	6	55%		
9	12	12	12.6	24.6	6	60%		
8	13	13	13.65	26.65	6	65%		
7	14	14	14.7	28.7	6	70%		
6	15	15	15.75	30.75	6	75%		
5	16	16	16.8	32.8	6	80%		
4	17	17	17.85	34.85	6	85%		
3	18	18	18.9	36.9	6	90%		
2	19	19	19.95	38.95	6	95%		
1	19	19	21	40	6	100%		

TR == 6
Bloodstone
								
to hit	Hits	Wound	Punc	WoP   MaxCrits	Confirm	
20	1	1	1.225	2.225	1	35%		
19	2	2	2.8	4.8	2	40%		
18	3	3	4.725	7.725	3	45%		
17	4	4	7	11	4	50%		
16	5	5	9.625	14.625	5	55%		
15	6	6	12.6	18.6	6	60%		
14	7	7	13.65	20.65	6	65%		
13	8	8	14.7	22.7	6	70%		
12	9	9	15.75	24.75	6	75%		
11	10	10	16.8	26.8	6	80%		
10	11	11	17.85	28.85	6	85%		
9	12	12	18.9	30.9	6	90%		
8	13	13	19.95	32.95	6	95%		
7	14	14	21	35	6	100%		
6	15	15	21	36	6	100%		
5	16	16	21	37	6	100%		
4	17	17	21	38	6	100%		
3	18	18	21	39	6	100%		
2	19	19	21	40	6	100%		
1	19	19	21	40	6	100%

EDIT: Found an error in my algorithm.

It was failing if the number of hits per 20 attacks was less than the threat range.

Also added Bloodstone

[Elurian]

Techno's breakdown looks good. I like it, but for the non-math-junkies, note that it's not taking into account any confirmation differential - the trials he ran just verify the .7 and 1.05 numbers I mentioned on the threat side, and those are constants. Also good to know you can confirm on 1 - good info Hadrian.

[Hadrian]

wounding in offhand, puncturing in mainhand..problem solved

Wounding in the off-hand would suffer from half STR mod bonus to damage and might fail to pass DR in some cases, which negates wounding damage. Since puncutring doesn't lose anything from this, it would be better to switch them.

Also, I didn't make it clear in my first post that I was assuming keen or IC: Pierce with rapiers.

[TechNoFear]

Techno's breakdown looks good. I like it, but for the non-math-junkies, note that it's not taking into account any confirmation differential - the trials he ran just verify the .7 and 1.05 numbers I mentioned on the threat side, and those are constants. Also good to know you can confirm on 1 - good info Hadrian.

If you have a seeker effect then just count down the Punct column that number (ie Bloodstone count down 6).

If this takes you off the bottom of the list, use the last (#H == 1) value.

I provided the algorithm I used, which takes seeker into account, if you want to post the numbers.

[Hadrian]

There is no reason not to be using a rapier if you want to go with puncturing. If all you care about is "of puncturing", then a rapier is easy to get. It's not expensive enough to get someone stuck only being able to afford a dagger or something.

[TechNoFear]

Opps...

Fixed error in the calcs, reposted correct numbers and Bloodstone comparison.