2HF vs 2WF (Balance Suggested)

[kyebosh]

I love my Q-Staff Acrobat, & I'll keep playing him regardless, but I can't escape the fact that he just doesn't deliver the DPS of a Dual Wielder.

Please point out my errors (no doubt I made some).
I've used all the info I could find on swing rates etc. Assumed 100% Sneak Chance (not that unrealistic given Radiance & good Aggro management), Power Attack, 30STR & +20 Sneak Damage from Items & Enhancements. 3 types of Fortification & DR shown.

With a +5 Quarterstaff

With 2x +5 Rapier

With 2x +5 Khopesh

(Can't seem to post the actual images )

In short, the 2WF out-Damages the Q-staff per minute by no small margain:
22.5% - 53.8% for Rapiers > QS
27.2% - 61.4% for Khopesh > QS


I propose with Acrobat 3 a mechanic is introduced to apply the x1.5 multiplier effect of the Q-Staff to Sneak Dice also (essentially 8d6+20 becomes 12d6+30). This could be tied also to a Feat, such as Improved Two Handed Fighting (to be on par with the Feats required for 2WF). All else being equal, this would change Q-Staff Damage to this.

With this small change, the gap is closed between the 2 fighting styles to the following:
0.99% - 20.4% for Rapiers > QS
2.82% - 25.9% for Khopesh > QS

This will make Acrobats more than just a cool looking toy Yet 2WF will still retain their superior DPS status (up to the equivalent of a Haste over Q-Staves).

Please Devs & fellow sneakies, I'd love some feedback!

[VKhaun]

2HF is not intended for swinging at one target though...

The feats to enhance a two hand weapon are for increasing the damage spread over multiple targets (and on some missed swings) Where's that DPS stand when you've got the full THF line and can go to town on four things at once after mod9 adds effects to glancing blows? Do glancing blows get sneak attack?

[kyebosh]

Good point, though Glancing Blows do not apply Sneak Attacks, even with the Mod 9 improved Enhancements & Feats.

Granted I didn't include Glancing Blows but if they proved too much of a deal-breaker it would be easy to scale it back somehow (for example apply the x1.5 to the dice only & not the bonus sneak damage, i.e: 8d6+20 becomes 12d6+20, not 12d6+30).

[VKhaun]

Good point, though Glancing Blows do not apply Sneak Attacks, even with the Mod 9 improved Enhancements & Feats.

Granted I didn't include Glancing Blows but if they proved too much of a deal-breaker it would be easy to scale it back somehow (for example apply the x1.5 to the dice only & not the bonus sneak damage, i.e: 8d6+20 becomes 12d6+20, not 12d6+30).

What about cleave and glancing blows? Yes I know the regular weapons can do cleave, but if every single target got it's own individual 'hit' from cleave, wouldn't every target give off a set of glancing blows on all the others? Four targets would take one hit, and three glancing blows each?

I'm not sure, I'm just now starting my first serious THF.
I've used two handers, but never cleave and THF set, and to a decent level.
I have played mostly casters until now.

Still I hope it's food for thought?

[Noctus]

On a Rogue THF will always be inferior to TWF, simply by the way a Rogue´s sneak attack damage is applied.

[kyebosh]

On a Rogue THF will always be inferior to TWF, simply by the way a Rogue´s sneak attack damage is applied.

...This will make Acrobats more than just a cool looking toy Yet 2WF will still retain their superior DPS status (up to the equivalent of a Haste over Q-Staves)...

You speak the truth. Wouldn't hurt to close the gap a bit though.

[QuantumFX]

I’d just like Quarterstaves to become the double weapons that they’re supposed to be.

[rimble]

I’d just like Quarterstaves to become the double weapons that they’re supposed to be.

Yeah...

But then it's TWFing again...

[QuantumFX]

Yeah...

But then it's TWFing again...

But it's more advantageous to rogues in general. Rather than being limited to quarterstaves for your DPS (because you got forced into the THF feats) you can do dual rapiers for DR/piercing, dual sickles for DR/slashing and quarterstaves for DR/bludgeon. (This is assuming equal # of attacks and acrobats getting their q-staff speed adjustment.)

[Missing_Minds]

I’d just like Quarterstaves to become the double weapons that they’re supposed to be.

My suggestion on that was to make fighting with two weapons a stance. Much like how combat expertice, sneak, etc. is a stance.

When the stance is active, you fight with two weapons. When the stance is not active, you fight with your primary hand.

This does not correlate to the TWF feat tree at all. I've suggested this because say on a caster. HOw many carry two weapons? Potency and lore/spell pen. When I take a swing at something, if it were PnP, I could just use one weapon, and have my full BaB, and not automattically attack two weapon style just because I'm holding something in my other hand.

Thus with a Qstaff, when the stance is off, you have the current 2HF, but when active it woudl attack a single target at TWF attack hooks.

[QuantumFX]

My suggestion on that was to make fighting with two weapons a stance. Much like how combat expertice, sneak, etc. is a stance.

When the stance is active, you fight with two weapons. When the stance is not active, you fight with your primary hand.

This does not correlate to the TWF feat tree at all. I've suggested this because say on a caster. HOw many carry two weapons? Potency and lore/spell pen. When I take a swing at something, if it were PnP, I could just use one weapon, and have my full BaB, and not automattically attack two weapon style just because I'm holding something in my other hand.

Thus with a Qstaff, when the stance is off, you have the current 2HF, but when active it woudl attack a single target at TWF attack hooks.

Indeed. It would also be a great way to justify the existence of buckler shields in DDO.

[The_Phenx]

Hey man looked at your numbers for the quarterstaff... one big thing I caught is no one runs around with a 15 str.

Preying usually sits at a 28.. and will be at a 30 come +3 tome.

Since str bonuses to damage get calculared diffferently for thf it might change your colculations if you assumed a common str... 28 I imagine...

[rimble]

Hey man looked at your numbers for the quarterstaff... one big thing I caught is no one runs around with a 15 str.

Preying usually sits at a 28.. and will be at a 30 come +3 tome.

Since str bonuses to damage get calculared diffferently for thf it might change your colculations if you assumed a common str... 28 I imagine...

That's Strength Modifier--30 Strength is +10 damage, plus half-again for being a two-handed weapon is 15.