Str vs. Dex Rogue

[QuintonReece]

Approximately how much DPS does one loose by going Dex vs. Str.?

Seems to me most of the rogue damage comes from backstab and Greensteel if you have it.

Given that (speaking about damage not "To Hit) the damage gained from strength is based upon the strength modifier I wonder how much is actually lost by going dex based.

i.e. A strength based rogue may have an 18 Strength(+4 Modifier).
If I understand correctly(and I may not) that character would get a +4 to damage on each successful hit. (Barring things like DR)
A dexterity based rogue may only have a 10 strength(no modifier).

If I understand correctly(again.. I may not) the dex based rogue would be getting 4 points of damage less per successful hit vs. a strength based one.(given the above example)

If that's true I am wondering if the trade-off would be worth it.

Trade the 4 points of dmg per swing for....
The increase on skills that require a dex check.
The increase of AC that would come with a higher Dex.
The increase of "To Hit" from a Dex based.(Assuming Weapon Finesse and not having to spread out ability points as much on creation)

I understand though that the str based would have access to power attack which would increase damage some.

I guess I am wondering if I am thinking all of this through correctly.

Trying to figure out the advantages vs. disadvantages of a dex vs. str based rogue.

This would be for an assassain build that also helps mele in a party.

Thanks in advance for the help. Those that need to flame.... flame on.

[Varr]

While not impossible, it is more difficult to build a solid str build than dex build. It is easier to build a well rounded and party flexible dex rogue. Both enhancements and two weapon fighting lead a rogue down the dex path. I would go so far as to say that due to back stabbing, two hit, and more well rounded stats dex rogues do more damage than str rogues over thier entire carreer with very few exceptions.

[VKhaun]

Approximately how much DPS does one loose by going Dex vs. Str.?

I see this question a lot for rangers especially, but most answers get really complicated really quick, and most people asking the question have a lot going on upstairs in either direction. Remember to keep it simple.

The only difference is where level-ups go. After mod nine's full level cap of 'natural' 20 that's only 5points in either one. Rounding up assuming your str/dex from other sources ends as an odd numbers that's 3damage, vs 3reflex save and 3ac. Aside from trying to qualify for TWF (has to be base+tomes, items won't get you feats), everything else is getting gear and your starting stats. Don't gimp your strength, your strength won't be gimp. Don't gimp your dex, your dex won't be gimp. Don't gimp your con and your con won't be gimp... for a rogue anyway. :P

The feat 'Weapon Finesse' only gives an increase of whatever the difference is. If you haven't gimped your strength and have it equally geared you will still have only that +3 to hit difference, rounding up for odd numbers going together again.

[Lithic]

Compare a rogue with 8 base str and no level ups to one with 18 base with all level ups. The difference is 8 vs 22, or 7pts per hit. This assumes both use the same str tomes and str items, and no other outside buffs as both can get them and they complicate things. It should be noted though that the more damage buffs you use, the less % of total damge comes from your str.

If taking a plain +5 holy rapier with sneak damage and the VOD goggles (no halfling enhancements, but all rogue damage enhancements) you get the following difference:

Dex rogue: 1d6+5 (weapon) +7 (holy) + 3 (16 str) + 8 (VoD goggles) + 28 (8d6 sneak damage) + 12 (4 rogue damage enhancements) for a total of 66.5 per hit.

Str rogue: 1d6+5 (weapon) +7 (holy) + 10 (30 str) + 8 (VoD goggles) + 28 (8d6 sneak damage) + 12 (4x rogue dmg enh.) for a total of 73.5 per hit.

These are the two extremes. Mine is the former and works pretty well, though I hate undead/constructs with a passion. Its up to you to decide how much str you want to have.

[imanujakku]

i just started playing and went the dex route but a rogues most important trapping skills have nothing to do with dex and stealth i have found rather useless because all the parties ive been in are on turbo mode in most of the dungeons especially if there is a cleric around. in other dnd games like neverwinter nights stealth was so godly it trumped strength.

if i were to start over i think would have just enough dex for two weapon fighting then concentrate on strength which would help my jump, trip (great for getting sneaking attacks while solo) and make my damage a bit better on constructs and undead and let me drop weapon finesse and feel better about using weapons with lower base damage but exotic effects ie daggers with deception.

[Varr]

To compare both builds......str would start 16 15 14 14 8 10 +5 str level ups human or adapted dwarf or wf. Dex would be 12 18 14 14 8 12 +5 level ups in dex and +5 enhancements for dex as a halfling, adapt for elf. Base nets you 21 str 20 dex vs 12 str 28 dex. For most the +4 higher to hit and reflex save is better than +4 damage per swing. ESp since rogues saves are modest and hitting on a 2 is by no means. Guarenteed.

[Leyoni]

if i were to start over i think would have just enough dex for two weapon fighting then concentrate on strength which would help my jump, trip (great for getting sneaking attacks while solo) and make my damage a bit better on constructs and undead and let me drop weapon finesse and feel better about using weapons with lower base damage but exotic effects ie daggers with deception.

Some good points here.

[Kiranselie]

The feat 'Weapon Finesse' only gives an increase of whatever the difference is. If you haven't gimped your strength and have it equally geared you will still have only that +3 to hit difference, rounding up for odd numbers going together again.

There's a lot to be said for missing 5% of the time vs. 20% of the time, that being the difference of three points on your primary attacking stat.

With a 3/4 BAB you'll want your primary attacking stat as high as you can get it. Especially on elite end game mobs that have AC.

If you only miss on a 1 vs. missing on a 4 or less, then thats 15% less DPS generated, which more than covers the 3 points of extra damage.

It really is a matter of personal preference, and what the next mod brings as far as Mobs AC goes.

On Kiranselie at current end game, I only miss on a 1 w/ my dex item on, but there have been times where I have neglected my dex item by mistake, and saw a signifigant increase in the number of misses, I dont have the exact numbers atm, but it was a large increase in misses from those three points difference.

[QuintonReece]

Great info so far. I'm starting to lean toward dex for the ability to get a higher "To Hit." and let my backstab, halfling bonus's and greensteel do the dps for me.

[SableShadow]

Great info so far. I'm starting to lean toward dex for the ability to get a higher "To Hit." and let my backstab, halfling bonus's and greensteel do the dps for me.

I luz my Finesse rogue, but it depends on what you want, really. Staying pure/mostly pure? Going Tempest? Got a lot of larges gathering dust? How many different weapon sets do you want to carry, and on and on.

I wouldn't necessarily go Finesse *just* for high to hit, but to get a high enough to hit (my base was 16, all level ups in, hitting a 34 at current endgame) and save points for other things...plenty of good str rogues running around with perma-double Madstone + Rage + Rams Might for both damage and to hit. They can't umd madstoned, but they're using cha as a dumpstat anyways.

A lot of roguing is temperment and playstyle; I know some great players who just loath playing them, and some fine str rogue players can't stand to play a finesse rogue and vice versa.

[SableShadow]

On Kiranselie at current end game, I only miss on a 1 w/ my dex item on, but there have been times where I have neglected my dex item by mistake, and saw a signifigant increase in the number of misses, I dont have the exact numbers atm, but it was a large increase in misses from those three points difference.

I notice that as well, on orthons when I have agro. Destruction on DT doesn't suck when I'm chasing devils around with +1 vorpals either...either case, I'm running w/o SA acc bonuses...it isn't enough to make it a huge deal, but I notice.

[oogly54]

Approximately how much DPS does one loose by going Dex vs. Str.?

Seems to me most of the rogue damage comes from backstab and Greensteel if you have it.

Given that (speaking about damage not "To Hit) the damage gained from strength is based upon the strength modifier I wonder how much is actually lost by going dex based.

i.e. A strength based rogue may have an 18 Strength(+4 Modifier).
If I understand correctly(and I may not) that character would get a +4 to damage on each successful hit. (Barring things like DR)
A dexterity based rogue may only have a 10 strength(no modifier).

If I understand correctly(again.. I may not) the dex based rogue would be getting 4 points of damage less per successful hit vs. a strength based one.(given the above example)

If that's true I am wondering if the trade-off would be worth it.

Trade the 4 points of dmg per swing for....
The increase on skills that require a dex check.
The increase of AC that would come with a higher Dex.
The increase of "To Hit" from a Dex based.(Assuming Weapon Finesse and not having to spread out ability points as much on creation)

I understand though that the str based would have access to power attack which would increase damage some.

I guess I am wondering if I am thinking all of this through correctly.

Trying to figure out the advantages vs. disadvantages of a dex vs. str based rogue.

This would be for an assassain build that also helps mele in a party.

Thanks in advance for the help. Those that need to flame.... flame on.

You also have to remember the STR based is going to use the +1 increase to stats at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th leveling. That is an addtional +2 to damage on every hit. That is on non crits. Most DPS characters use khopeshes which means on a crit you are now talk 18 more damage. Bypassing DR is an issue as well. You need to do a certain amount of damage to some heavily fortified characters to get some weapon affects to work. The STR helps here as well. A STR based is probably more likily to go with power attack because they are DPS focused. How important is it for your DEX to go after a +2, 3, or 4 STR tome, widening further if you can only afford one stat.

With all that said, my rogue is DEX based.

[SableShadow]

Impaqt has some really tight builds out there, both str and finesse, and a lot of playtime on them. I've got some of them linked up here, but I'd def take a look at the Leesa 3.0 he's working on also.