Str vs. Dex Rogue

[SableShadow]

Incorrect.
It's the complete opposite, if you never have aggro, you never take damage; and if you never take damage you'll have no need for ac. And when you don't take damage, you will sneak attack 100%. And if you sneak attack 100% you wont ever have problems hitting things.

Someone rolls a Finesse rogue for AC?

Most of the folks I've run with that run Str based rogues do so because they get a loud *crunch* on the first attack, then they're playing a barbie with fewer hp. Not having agro is bonus for these guys; if you roll finesse, though, agro management is critical to your DPS....that is what Sham was referring to. I wouldn't recommend a 20 starting dex, though...that's a lotta points! and in many ways defeats the biggest advantage of going finesse, to save points.

Bottom line, dex based with some str (~20-24 with item) is the way to go, it makes the most efficient character, but a strenght based makes a better shroud runner / dps runner, etc.

Probably correct, with the cap going to 20 and the changes to stat damage...even a dumpstat Cha rogue is going to be able to hit the 39 UMD sweetspot, at least between combats. I think I have a rant somewhere that says, basically, that the debate is over and Str based rogues won...but I'm famous for my rants, so there prolly needs to be some salt on that.

A strength based rogue is something you want in powergamer groups. A dex based is something you want for soloing and PUGs.

I would have flipped this 180, but we all run with who we all run with.

[Twerpp]

A rogue only needs enough strength to carry his loot. And plat doesnt weigh anything . The only way to know the truth is build one of each. You will see one is the prince of thieves and the other is just a thug.

[bobbryan2]

The real truth of the matter is that gear is far more important to rogue DPS than whether you hit off str or dex.

Greensteel dex > non-greensteel str
Greensteel str > non-greensteel dex

Most of the things like the lower to hit from strength can easily be overcome by adding radiance weapons/guards and madstone boots to the mix.

I prefer str for the sole reason that I feel far less gimped against constructs and undead... but at the end game, fully geared... there's not much difference.

[Lymnus]

The real truth of the matter is that gear is far more important to rogue DPS than whether you hit off str or dex.

Greensteel dex > non-greensteel str
Greensteel str > non-greensteel dex

Most of the things like the lower to hit from strength can easily be overcome by adding radiance weapons/guards and madstone boots to the mix.

I prefer str for the sole reason that I feel far less gimped against constructs and undead... but at the end game, fully geared... there's not much difference.

Lesson: Greensteel makes rogues scary.
Opinion: I'm afraid of STR based rogues with Radiance scimitars or rapiers. Particularly STR based HALFLING rogues. Dear god. Have you seen those numbers?

[Varr]

Varr approves all the rogue loving. I have many toons(my non rogues) and only three avatars... Varr and Varra on Khyber and Vara on Thelanis (rogues all.)

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Someone rolls a Finesse rogue for AC?

Most of the folks I've run with that run Str based rogues do so because they get a loud *crunch* on the first attack, then they're playing a barbie with fewer hp. Not having agro is bonus for these guys; if you roll finesse, though, agro management is critical to your DPS.

Indeed, not having aggro is critical to a finess based rogue, the thing is if you play with the right people neither a strength based nor a dex based will ever have aggro. 505*0,40=202 TPS, hell, good warchanter bards deal more TPS than that. It's not like dex rogues have a better time not having aggro, well not by much anyways. The difference is basically dmg vs ac. While dmg is incredibly more potent against 100% fort targets, thats kinda why I prefer strength based, though it doesn't change the fact that mid strength finess based are the best, imo.

Probably correct, with the cap going to 20 and the changes to stat damage...even a dumpstat Cha rogue is going to be able to hit the 39 UMD sweetspot, at least between combats. I think I have a rant somewhere that says, basically, that the debate is over and Str based rogues won...but I'm famous for my rants, so there prolly needs to be some salt on that.

There are rogues that don't dump-stat cha :O.

I would have flipped this 180, but we all run with who we all run with.

Meh, if you play in powergamer groups the rogue will never have aggro, so more damage to the party .

That said, bring in more Ravagers

[Shamguard]

Incorrect.
It's the complete opposite, if you never have aggro, you never take damage; and if you never take damage you'll have no need for ac. And when you don't take damage, you will sneak attack 100%. And if you sneak attack 100% you wont ever have problems hitting things.
Bottom line, dex based with some str (~20-24 with item) is the way to go, it makes the most efficient character, but a strenght based makes a better shroud runner / dps runner, etc. A strength based rogue is something you want in powergamer groups. A dex based is something you want for soloing and PUGs.

Dexterity based is not for AC, in DDO AC is a joke unless you can hit god like levels of 60+. With whirlwind attacks, glancing blows, and just random swings you will take damage despite your best efforts. Your best AC is knowing when to attack and when to hold back and wait for someone else to grab agro so you can then get in and sneak attack.

Dexterity based is about improving the weak rogue base attack. All the damage bonus, sneak attack won't be of any use if you can't hit what you are attacking. With a Strength based rogue you get what a 24-28 strength (attack bonus +9). A dexterity based rogue can easily hit 32 (weapon finess attack bonus +11) higher if you min/max.

The idea of a rogue in a powergamer group is a joke. Powergamers don't play with rogues, they may have some thugs that can sneak attack but they are not "Rogues". Rogues slow things down by scouting ahead, finding traps, disabling traps, and kiteing mobs in smaller groups for the party to deal with. These are thing that your average powergamer doesn't have patience for.

The real trick is to make sure your equipment matchs your build, if you go high dexterity low strength look for weapons that aren't effected by your strength modifier. If you go high strength then weapon finesse and finesse weapons are probably not rigth for you. If you go high strength you'll probably want some martial class levels to unlock the more strength based weapons for you too.

What it comes down to is build your rogue to match your playstyle. If you like the stealth part of being a rogue then an Intelligence and Dexterity build is what your looking for. IF your just after the extra sneak attack damage and some basic rogue skill then thug with some rogue splash my be what you're after.

Rogues are one of the classes in this game that success or failure of a charcter is more based upon the player than the build. This is not a class that you just pick up and play there is a very steep learning curve to playing a good rogue and part of that learning curve is how to build a rogue that matches your playstyle.

Most important is to build a rogue that you enjoy playing. This is a game after all and you are suppose to be having fun.


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[SableShadow]

The idea of a rogue in a powergamer group is a joke. Powergamers don't play with rogues, they may have some thugs that can sneak attack but they are not "Rogues". Rogues slow things down by scouting ahead, finding traps, disabling traps, and kiteing mobs in smaller groups for the party to deal with. These are thing that your average powergamer doesn't have patience for.

A lot of us just, I dunno, kill things in those groups.

[Leyoni]

if i were to start over i think would have just enough dex for two weapon fighting then concentrate on strength which would help my jump, trip (great for getting sneaking attacks while solo) and make my damage a bit better on constructs and undead and let me drop weapon finesse and feel better about using weapons with lower base damage but exotic effects ie daggers with deception.

Some good points here.

[Hellllboy]

Most important is to build a rogue that you enjoy playing. This is a game after all and you are suppose to be having fun.

I think this says it all! Both can be fun if built right. Both can suck if made wrong.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Dexterity based is not for AC, in DDO AC is a joke unless you can hit god like levels of 60+. With whirlwind attacks, glancing blows, and just random swings you will take damage despite your best efforts. Your best AC is knowing when to attack and when to hold back and wait for someone else to grab agro so you can then get in and sneak attack.

Please tell me kind sir. Who in gods name builds a finess based rogue that can't hit 70-80? :O.
Yeh, you'll take damage, but with 400 hitpoints taking damage 1 or 2 times wont really be a problem. Bottom line, in powergamer groups the rogue wont have aggro, and die minimal dmg even while having 0 ac.

Dexterity based is about improving the weak rogue base attack. All the damage bonus, sneak attack won't be of any use if you can't hit what you are attacking. With a Strength based rogue you get what a 24-28 strength (attack bonus +9). A dexterity based rogue can easily hit 32 (weapon finess attack bonus +11) higher if you min/max..

A strength based rogue reaches 32-36 depending on rage pots / madstone. To hit wont be a problem, especially not in sneak attack.

The idea of a rogue in a powergamer group is a joke. Powergamers don't play with rogues, they may have some thugs that can sneak attack but they are not "Rogues". Rogues slow things down by scouting ahead, finding traps, disabling traps, and kiteing mobs in smaller groups for the party to deal with. These are thing that your average powergamer doesn't have patience for.

You wont find anyone more "powergamer" than I am, and I'll take a good rogue over any barbarian or fighter or ranger. Rogues deal the most damage, it's a joke really that you think rogues are for scouting and traps. They're for rushing through the traps and dealing sick amounts of damage.

The real trick is to make sure your equipment matchs your build, if you go high dexterity low strength look for weapons that aren't effected by your strength modifier. If you go high strength then weapon finesse and finesse weapons are probably not rigth for you. If you go high strength you'll probably want some martial class levels to unlock the more strength based weapons for you too.

Or just pick up khopesh.

[Shamguard]

Please tell me kind sir. Who in gods name builds a finess based rogue that can't hit 70-80? :O.

I don't know what kind of monk/fighter/rogue build you are talking about but I think come mod 9 these kind of numbers are going to be harder to hit. This is also not a build I would really classify as a rogue, but that is just me I guess.

Yeh, you'll take damage, but with 400 hitpoints taking damage 1 or 2 times wont really be a problem. Bottom line, in powergamer groups the rogue wont have aggro, and die minimal dmg even while having 0 ac.

Once agian I don't know what build you are talking about that can reach and maintain that many hit points but again I wouldn't call it a rogue.

A strength based rogue reaches 32-36 depending on rage pots / madstone. To hit wont be a problem, especially not in sneak attack.

I wasn't talking about numbers that require you to spend more time buffing than fighting. I was using standing unbuffed numbers. My thief acrobat can hit a 40 dexterity with just the showtime buff and no she didn't start with a 20 dex.

You wont find anyone more "powergamer" than I am, and I'll take a good rogue over any barbarian or fighter or ranger. Rogues deal the most damage, it's a joke really that you think rogues are for scouting and traps. They're for rushing through the traps and dealing sick amounts of damage.

If that's the way you play your "rogues" then I understand why you think strength based is better. To me a rogue is more of a stealth character. Unfortunatly DDO is not stealth friendly for the most part but with the right groups or if you solo then stealth can be very useful.

Or just pick up khopesh.

I guess if you want to spend a feat so you can use one type of weapon khopesh is not a bad choice. Personaly I prefer having more options in my weapons, because you never know what you may find in that next chest.

And since you seem to keep missing my main point I will repeat it once again for you:

Build that type of rogue that matches your playstyle. If you have more fun with a dexterity based rogue then build a dexterity based rogue. If you enjoy being a thug then build a strength based rogue. Both type are very playable and can be fun. This is a game after all and you are suppose to be having fun.

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[Absolute-Omniscience]

I don't know what kind of monk/fighter/rogue build you are talking about but I think come mod 9 these kind of numbers are going to be harder to hit. This is also not a build I would really classify as a rogue, but that is just me I guess.

http://community.codemasters.com/for...38#post4557938 Here's a rogue reaching 70-80 ac, and a tempest rogue would reach those numbers even easier.

Once agian I don't know what build you are talking about that can reach and maintain that many hit points but again I wouldn't call it a rogue.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...61&postcount=1
And here's my new upcoming tempest rogue having over 400 hitpoints (0 ac) unbuffed. Without toughness.

I wasn't talking about numbers that require you to spend more time buffing than fighting. I was using standing unbuffed numbers. My thief acrobat can hit a 40 dexterity with just the showtime buff and no she didn't start with a 20 dex..

I know you were, I'm just saying that reaching a +11-+13 bonus from strength aint hard as a rogue. (Madstone doesn't require buffing and drinking a rage pot each 1,30 minutes isn't really that much of a job :P)

If that's the way you play your "rogues" then I understand why you think strength based is better. To me a rogue is more of a stealth character. Unfortunatly DDO is not stealth friendly for the most part but with the right groups or if you solo then stealth can be very useful.

As I've said before, I don't think strength rogues are better. Well better in a different way. If I were to pick one, I'd take the one with mid-high strength and high 30's dex.

I guess if you want to spend a feat so you can use one type of weapon khopesh is not a bad choice. Personaly I prefer having more options in my weapons, because you never know what you may find in that next chest.

Indeed, a level of material class is very useful as well, but as a powergamer you know what you'll ever need, and that's a Mineral II khopesh :P.
I would advice 1 level of marterial though, for scimitars.

And since you seem to keep missing my main point I will repeat it once again for you:

Build that type of rogue that matches your playstyle. If you have more fun with a dexterity based rogue then build a dexterity based rogue. If you enjoy being a thug then build a strength based rogue. Both type are very playable and can be fun. This is a game after all and you are suppose to be having fun.

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Nah, I'm not missing your point, play what you think is fun. But I'm just here to show the numbers basically, so that it'll be easier to understand what the main difference is between Dex and Strength based.

[McBadger]

Thanks for making rogues viable guys. Good times!

[bruha118]

if this helps u any i play a str base rogue thief acro staff build stats are: str 28/dex 30/con 18/int 14/wis 20/chr 16...i ate all +2 tomes.... rogue 12/fighter 2/monk 2...with PA +10 dam for weildin a thw...fully buffed 77ac...not includin pally(i dont like too include pally in ac calculations)...u might say int is low but as i found u dont need a high int just enough to get CE...i can search and disable just fine (1 exception is cabal trap)...its a fun build...mod to high dps...high ac...mod saves...very self sufficiant with high umd 40 if ur like me and like to solo ...hope this helps a little

[Vivanto]

http://community.codemasters.com/for...38#post4557938 Here's a rogue reaching 70-80 ac, and a tempest rogue would reach those numbers even easier.

Any half decent rogue should be able to use 10 but at the worst 5 mins shield wands easily, come mod 9 tempest 1 gives only an inferior bonus to that. Unless you were talking about fe defense, which isn't really advicable for only 6 levels.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Any half decent rogue should be able to use 10 but at the worst 5 mins shield wands easily, come mod 9 tempest 1 gives only an inferior bonus to that. Unless you were talking about fe defense, which isn't really advicable for only 6 levels.

I was meaning here in mod 8 ofcourse, as those ac breakdowns are in mod 8 as well. Comes mod 9 and tempest rogues and rogues will be on equal footing regarding ac. Both being able to reach 90's ac burst if built for it.

[Yargore]

I wouldn't consider uncanny dodge a burst though.
When Lamania opened there was a pic of an item with lesser "something" (iirc), and it gave extra uses of uncanny dodge.
So with acrobat II or III and an uncanny dodge item it's no longer a boost, as it can be chained over 5 minutes.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I wouldn't consider uncanny dodge a burst though.
When Lamania opened there was a pic of an item with lesser "something" (iirc), and it gave extra uses of uncanny dodge.
So with acrobat II or III and an uncanny dodge item it's no longer a boost, as it can be chained over 5 minutes.

Indeed, even as it is now one can chain it over 4 minutes with acrobat II.

[Vivanto]

I wouldn't consider uncanny dodge a burst though.
When Lamania opened there was a pic of an item with lesser "something" (iirc), and it gave extra uses of uncanny dodge.
So with acrobat II or III and an uncanny dodge item it's no longer a boost, as it can be chained over 5 minutes.

I already do that, imo that item is pretty much useless for an acrobat 2, even less for a future 3 as I don't run out of boosts even in shroud 4/5 at all.
Got 9 charges, lasts for 4:30, at later levels should get at least 1 more even with only acrobat 2 so 5 mins or more as you described.