Str vs. Dex Rogue

[QuintonReece]

Approximately how much DPS does one loose by going Dex vs. Str.?

Seems to me most of the rogue damage comes from backstab and Greensteel if you have it.

Given that (speaking about damage not "To Hit) the damage gained from strength is based upon the strength modifier I wonder how much is actually lost by going dex based.

i.e. A strength based rogue may have an 18 Strength(+4 Modifier).
If I understand correctly(and I may not) that character would get a +4 to damage on each successful hit. (Barring things like DR)
A dexterity based rogue may only have a 10 strength(no modifier).

If I understand correctly(again.. I may not) the dex based rogue would be getting 4 points of damage less per successful hit vs. a strength based one.(given the above example)

If that's true I am wondering if the trade-off would be worth it.

Trade the 4 points of dmg per swing for....
The increase on skills that require a dex check.
The increase of AC that would come with a higher Dex.
The increase of "To Hit" from a Dex based.(Assuming Weapon Finesse and not having to spread out ability points as much on creation)

I understand though that the str based would have access to power attack which would increase damage some.

I guess I am wondering if I am thinking all of this through correctly.

Trying to figure out the advantages vs. disadvantages of a dex vs. str based rogue.

This would be for an assassain build that also helps mele in a party.

Thanks in advance for the help. Those that need to flame.... flame on.

[Varr]

While not impossible, it is more difficult to build a solid str build than dex build. It is easier to build a well rounded and party flexible dex rogue. Both enhancements and two weapon fighting lead a rogue down the dex path. I would go so far as to say that due to back stabbing, two hit, and more well rounded stats dex rogues do more damage than str rogues over thier entire carreer with very few exceptions.

[oogly54]

Approximately how much DPS does one loose by going Dex vs. Str.?

Seems to me most of the rogue damage comes from backstab and Greensteel if you have it.

Given that (speaking about damage not "To Hit) the damage gained from strength is based upon the strength modifier I wonder how much is actually lost by going dex based.

i.e. A strength based rogue may have an 18 Strength(+4 Modifier).
If I understand correctly(and I may not) that character would get a +4 to damage on each successful hit. (Barring things like DR)
A dexterity based rogue may only have a 10 strength(no modifier).

If I understand correctly(again.. I may not) the dex based rogue would be getting 4 points of damage less per successful hit vs. a strength based one.(given the above example)

If that's true I am wondering if the trade-off would be worth it.

Trade the 4 points of dmg per swing for....
The increase on skills that require a dex check.
The increase of AC that would come with a higher Dex.
The increase of "To Hit" from a Dex based.(Assuming Weapon Finesse and not having to spread out ability points as much on creation)

I understand though that the str based would have access to power attack which would increase damage some.

I guess I am wondering if I am thinking all of this through correctly.

Trying to figure out the advantages vs. disadvantages of a dex vs. str based rogue.

This would be for an assassain build that also helps mele in a party.

Thanks in advance for the help. Those that need to flame.... flame on.

You also have to remember the STR based is going to use the +1 increase to stats at 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th leveling. That is an addtional +2 to damage on every hit. That is on non crits. Most DPS characters use khopeshes which means on a crit you are now talk 18 more damage. Bypassing DR is an issue as well. You need to do a certain amount of damage to some heavily fortified characters to get some weapon affects to work. The STR helps here as well. A STR based is probably more likily to go with power attack because they are DPS focused. How important is it for your DEX to go after a +2, 3, or 4 STR tome, widening further if you can only afford one stat.

With all that said, my rogue is DEX based.

[VKhaun]

Approximately how much DPS does one loose by going Dex vs. Str.?

I see this question a lot for rangers especially, but most answers get really complicated really quick, and most people asking the question have a lot going on upstairs in either direction. Remember to keep it simple.

The only difference is where level-ups go. After mod nine's full level cap of 'natural' 20 that's only 5points in either one. Rounding up assuming your str/dex from other sources ends as an odd numbers that's 3damage, vs 3reflex save and 3ac. Aside from trying to qualify for TWF (has to be base+tomes, items won't get you feats), everything else is getting gear and your starting stats. Don't gimp your strength, your strength won't be gimp. Don't gimp your dex, your dex won't be gimp. Don't gimp your con and your con won't be gimp... for a rogue anyway. :P

The feat 'Weapon Finesse' only gives an increase of whatever the difference is. If you haven't gimped your strength and have it equally geared you will still have only that +3 to hit difference, rounding up for odd numbers going together again.

[Lithic]

Compare a rogue with 8 base str and no level ups to one with 18 base with all level ups. The difference is 8 vs 22, or 7pts per hit. This assumes both use the same str tomes and str items, and no other outside buffs as both can get them and they complicate things. It should be noted though that the more damage buffs you use, the less % of total damge comes from your str.

If taking a plain +5 holy rapier with sneak damage and the VOD goggles (no halfling enhancements, but all rogue damage enhancements) you get the following difference:

Dex rogue: 1d6+5 (weapon) +7 (holy) + 3 (16 str) + 8 (VoD goggles) + 28 (8d6 sneak damage) + 12 (4 rogue damage enhancements) for a total of 66.5 per hit.

Str rogue: 1d6+5 (weapon) +7 (holy) + 10 (30 str) + 8 (VoD goggles) + 28 (8d6 sneak damage) + 12 (4x rogue dmg enh.) for a total of 73.5 per hit.

These are the two extremes. Mine is the former and works pretty well, though I hate undead/constructs with a passion. Its up to you to decide how much str you want to have.

[SableShadow]

Impaqt has some really tight builds out there, both str and finesse, and a lot of playtime on them. I've got some of them linked up here, but I'd def take a look at the Leesa 3.0 he's working on also.

[imanujakku]

i just started playing and went the dex route but a rogues most important trapping skills have nothing to do with dex and stealth i have found rather useless because all the parties ive been in are on turbo mode in most of the dungeons especially if there is a cleric around. in other dnd games like neverwinter nights stealth was so godly it trumped strength.

if i were to start over i think would have just enough dex for two weapon fighting then concentrate on strength which would help my jump, trip (great for getting sneaking attacks while solo) and make my damage a bit better on constructs and undead and let me drop weapon finesse and feel better about using weapons with lower base damage but exotic effects ie daggers with deception.

[Varr]

To compare both builds......str would start 16 15 14 14 8 10 +5 str level ups human or adapted dwarf or wf. Dex would be 12 18 14 14 8 12 +5 level ups in dex and +5 enhancements for dex as a halfling, adapt for elf. Base nets you 21 str 20 dex vs 12 str 28 dex. For most the +4 higher to hit and reflex save is better than +4 damage per swing. ESp since rogues saves are modest and hitting on a 2 is by no means. Guarenteed.

[Kiranselie]

The feat 'Weapon Finesse' only gives an increase of whatever the difference is. If you haven't gimped your strength and have it equally geared you will still have only that +3 to hit difference, rounding up for odd numbers going together again.

There's a lot to be said for missing 5% of the time vs. 20% of the time, that being the difference of three points on your primary attacking stat.

With a 3/4 BAB you'll want your primary attacking stat as high as you can get it. Especially on elite end game mobs that have AC.

If you only miss on a 1 vs. missing on a 4 or less, then thats 15% less DPS generated, which more than covers the 3 points of extra damage.

It really is a matter of personal preference, and what the next mod brings as far as Mobs AC goes.

On Kiranselie at current end game, I only miss on a 1 w/ my dex item on, but there have been times where I have neglected my dex item by mistake, and saw a signifigant increase in the number of misses, I dont have the exact numbers atm, but it was a large increase in misses from those three points difference.

[QuintonReece]

Great info so far. I'm starting to lean toward dex for the ability to get a higher "To Hit." and let my backstab, halfling bonus's and greensteel do the dps for me.

[SableShadow]

On Kiranselie at current end game, I only miss on a 1 w/ my dex item on, but there have been times where I have neglected my dex item by mistake, and saw a signifigant increase in the number of misses, I dont have the exact numbers atm, but it was a large increase in misses from those three points difference.

I notice that as well, on orthons when I have agro. Destruction on DT doesn't suck when I'm chasing devils around with +1 vorpals either...either case, I'm running w/o SA acc bonuses...it isn't enough to make it a huge deal, but I notice.

[SableShadow]

Great info so far. I'm starting to lean toward dex for the ability to get a higher "To Hit." and let my backstab, halfling bonus's and greensteel do the dps for me.

I luz my Finesse rogue, but it depends on what you want, really. Staying pure/mostly pure? Going Tempest? Got a lot of larges gathering dust? How many different weapon sets do you want to carry, and on and on.

I wouldn't necessarily go Finesse *just* for high to hit, but to get a high enough to hit (my base was 16, all level ups in, hitting a 34 at current endgame) and save points for other things...plenty of good str rogues running around with perma-double Madstone + Rage + Rams Might for both damage and to hit. They can't umd madstoned, but they're using cha as a dumpstat anyways.

A lot of roguing is temperment and playstyle; I know some great players who just loath playing them, and some fine str rogue players can't stand to play a finesse rogue and vice versa.

[QuantumFX]

OP: Before I go too far into this let me give you this one piece of advice: Build to your strengths as a player. Failure to do so will result in frustration.

I think most of the benefits of a DEX build have been covered so I'll stick to the benefits of STR based builds. (For clarity I'm speaking from the PoV of a Human 1 Fighter/15 Rogue 28STR/24DEX/24CON/24INT/10WIS/10CHA and a Drow 2 Fighter/12 Rogue 16STR/30DEX/16CON/16INT/8WIS/16CHA)

A strength based rogue is actually a lot more than “+4 to damage”. STR bonus damage, unlike SA damage, is multiplied by crit multipliers and is unaffected by fortification. This makes non rogue friendly quests (Undead/construct heavy) much more tolerable.

As for the “to hit” bonus. I don't think of it as a benefit, for DPS types, as the only reason to have a high to hit is so you can turn on power attack. As a rogue you have a lot of options to beef up your SA to hit bonus. Think of it this way: For a DEX based rogue to keep up on the damage per swing they're going to need at least Weapon finesse and Power Attack. I can simply bypass the issue and take Kopesh and oTWF. (oTWF on a STR build is a no brainer. On a DEX build… not so much.)

As mentioned above, a strength based rogue is not going to stick to the simple weapons + rapier that most rogues stick to. It's too confining and and never pushes the advantages of having a high strength. My rogue splashed a single level of fighter and gets access to these very useful rogue weapons as a result: Kukri, Scimitar, Kopesh (Bonus fest), Warhammer (Post Mod 9). All the mentioned weapons have at least one of the following: ability to bypass DR, Better crit profiles and 2 of them have Weakening of Enfeebling options.

[Varr]

I would agree that both deep multi classed non monk ac builds and fun builds like the quarterstff using accrobat are better served str biased. Pureish rogues that take khop and hit on a 5+ end up +6 to damage per swing thanks to the str bonus and crit multiplier. There are elven weapon or halfling guile bonus to eat that up as well as +3.5 ba lost as soon as a second level of splash class is taken. Other than portals and fleshmakers elite, currently a pair of disruptors or smitters will be the killing factor for constructs and undead for both dex and str builds. Mod nine hopefully will change that. Have not played new content yet.

I'll leave power attack on a two weapon fighting rogue, especialy a dex version, alone.

Either way you can make a fun and potent rogue.... Both require some str and some dex.... But to tweek out I think pures are better served dex, multi non ac's are better str.

[Zenako]

You can also do a bit of both. I have a halfing rogue (not capped yet) but it has 30+ DEX and 20 STR at the moment. Enough strength to get some bonus, but still enough DEX for all the other rogue things that matter, (and I do sneak around quite a bit), albeit often when on my own.

Get a collection of Divine Power CLickies. They can be your friend for those Hard to HIT mobs, since it gives you FULL BAB, which is a to hit bonus you cannot regain with any other clickie/spell at the moment. (I know of no Tensors Transformation Clickies and in any case, that might shut off too many other rogue features at the same time.)

A nice set of Blindness Prot Goggles with 5 charges of Divine Power can be very handy for example.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

The difference between strength based rogue (34 str) and dex based (20 str) is about 7%. If you want the calculations posted I can do so, but would rather not, as it would take some time.
The difference would ofcourse be a lot greater as the mobs fort goes up. This calc has been done counting that mobs have 0% fort.

[maddmatt70]

This is definitely a next mod question for me. Will the mobs ac go up significantly next mod? If the mobs ac goes up I would definitely say dex based because a rogue needs every bit of to-hit they can get then, but if the mob's ac does not go up significantly then strength becomes the better option. We will see. I have a str based acrobat rogue and dex based tempest rogue by the way.

[Roman]

Having gone down both paths, strength and finesse, I'm decidedly in favor of strength based builds, and here's why.

1. In my experience AC does not scale well; this is especially noticable in elite raids like VoD. Because we are on a d20 system, it doesnt take much change to game mechanics to ruin an AC advantage.
2. Extra damage from strength builds never goes out of style and is increasingly more important as quest difficulty goes up.
3. I have personally found beating on a raid boss on elite to be a very frustrating experience with a finesse build.

As far as to-hit goes, dont sweat it. Just use destruction, sunder, and/or sundering ooze. That will drop AC by 9-13 right there. Add a few debuffs from casters and you will only be missing on a 1 regardless of your to-hit.

I think and strength build with max diplomacy and moderate AC will age better than a AC focused finesse build.

Just my 2 cents

[Shamguard]

Actually it all depends upon your build and playstyle. If you know how to control agro and maiximize your sneak attacks then the Finesse/Dexterity build will give you better performace since with rogue/race enhancements you can get a better DEX bonus than STR bonus.
A drow rogue at level 16 can now have a maximum dexterity of 38 (+14 to hit with weapon Finesse) (base 20+ 4 level up + 5 enhancement + 3 tome + 6 dexterity item). There is currently no other characteristic in the game that can me raised to that level with no temporary buffs. I don't like counting on temporay buffs because there are just too many ways they can be stripped from a character durring combat.

To really make a Strentgh based rogue work you have to splash in a martial class (Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Monk) to pick up either feats or special abilities that can compensate for the lower attack bonus. Even then you'll find your playing more of a light tank than a rogue.

To be honest any rogue you play either strength based or dexterity based will have to have all the rigth toys to make it work. High level DDO is about the toys and how you use thme to enhancen your build.


...

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Actually it all depends upon your build and playstyle. If you know how to control agro and maiximize your sneak attacks then the Finesse/Dexterity build will give you better performace

Incorrect.
It's the complete opposite, if you never have aggro, you never take damage; and if you never take damage you'll have no need for ac. And when you don't take damage, you will sneak attack 100%. And if you sneak attack 100% you wont ever have problems hitting things.
Bottom line, dex based with some str (~20-24 with item) is the way to go, it makes the most efficient character, but a strenght based makes a better shroud runner / dps runner, etc. A strength based rogue is something you want in powergamer groups. A dex based is something you want for soloing and PUGs.