The Hatetank

[Valezra]

BUILD SUMMARY
Build Goals:
1 - Achieve Self-Buffed Sustained AC of 70+
2 - Achieve average TWF DPS when not tanking.
3 - Achieve Premium Hate generation for tanking.
4 - Good Beholder Saves.
5 - Evasion.

Level 16 Elf - 14 Paladin/2 Monk (Level 20 - 18 Paladin/2 Monk)

HP @ lvl 16 (20): 423 (491)

Saves @ lvl 16 with GH buff only:
Fort: 33
Reflex: 36
Will: 33

Stats Level 16 (Level 20)
Str: 24 (24) 28 when in Superior Stance
Dex: 32 (34)
Con: 18 (18) 22 when in Superior Stance
Int: 8 (8)
Wis: 28 (28)
Cha: 18 (20)

Armor Class Self Buffed: 68 (75+)
Armor Class Raid Buffed: 76 (83+)

DPS: 268 Sustained
DPS threat equiv. when tanking: (656)
There isn't a build in the game that can pull a mob off of 656 DPS Threat. Especially considering how the Paladin can frontload threat via Smites.
(Yes... this threat is generated from 0 Sneak Attack and while holding aggro)

Feats:
1 - Toughness, Two Weapon Fighting
2 - Dodge
3 - Weapon Finesse
6 - Extend
9 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12 - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15 - Power Attack
18 - Shield Mastery for Siberys Unlock

UMD (Easy): 27.5 (50% Shield lvl 10 Wand / 100% shield lvl 5 Wand)
UMD (Raid Gear): 30.5 (65% Shield lvl 10 Wand)


CALCULATIONS

Hitpoints: 423 --- 194 + (4 * 16) Constitution + 10 DV + 30 GFL + 45 Shroud + 40 Paladin Enhancements + 20 Racial Enhancements +20 Minos Legen
Hitpoints @ LVL 20 in Superior Stance: 491

Stats:
Str: 15 +3 Tome +6 Item = 24
Dex: 18 +2 Tome +6 Item +4 Level Ups +2 Race = 32
Con: 10 +2 Tome +6 Item = 18
Int: 8
Wis: 16 + 2 Tome +1 monk +3 Shroud +6 Item = 28
Cha: 8 +2 Tome +2 Pally +6 Item = 18

Armor Class:
Base 10
Armor 8
Icy 4
Insight 4
Aura 4
Prot 5
Chattering 3
Dodge 1
Shield 4
Dex 11
Wis 9
Bark 3
Armor ritual 1
Haste 1
Defensive Fighting 2

Self Buffed and Sustained = 70
Self Buffed and Sustained w/ PA on = 68

Bard Song 4
Recitation 2
Bark 2

Raid Buffed and Sustained = 76

Mod 9

Aura 1
Siberys III Aura 1
+? Aura
+4 Superior Stance
+1 Dex

= 83+

UMD (easy):
9.5 ranks
4 Charisma
3 Cartouche
4 Greater Hero
1 Voice
6 Shroud

27.5 = 50% Shield (10) wand

UMD (raid gear):
9.5 ranks
4 Charisma
5 7FG
4 Greater Hero
2 HoGF
6 Shroud

30.5 = 65% Shield (10) wand

Attack: 15 + 5 + 11 + 2 enhancements + 2 Tumbleweed - 4 TWF + 3 Bard = 34 Beholder
Attack DPS: 15 + 5 + 11 + 2 enhancements + 2 Tumbleweed -4 TWF + 3 Divine Favor + 1 Haste + 4 Greater Hero - 5 PA +5 Tharnes = 39
Tanking in Raid: +2-3 Bard +2 Superior Stance = 38-39 Attack
Tanking in Raid @ Level 20: +4 Levels +1 Dex = 42-44 Attack

Beholder Values:
AC: 61
Attack: 26-31
Saves: 28+

GEAR:
Mainhand: Mineral II Rapier (Holy, Acid, +4 AC, Keen, Transmuting, Bleed)
Offhand: Mineral II Rapier (Holy, +3 Wisdom, Keen, Transmuting, Bleed)

Head: Wisdom +6 / Minos Legen after 20 Shrouds
Cloak: Charisma +6
Necklace: Constitution +6
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles / GS Wisdom 6 Goggles after 20 Shrouds for tanking
Trinket: Bloodstone
Bracers: Armor +8
Boots: Mineral II (45 HP, Heavy Fort, +5 Protection) / Greensteel A-A-A (+300 SP, +6 Charisma Skills, 4.5 minutes of Haste)
Gloves: Strength +6
Ring 1: Tumbleweed (+2 Attack, Tumble, +6 Dexterity)
Ring 2: Chattering Ring (+3 Dodge)
Belt: Posion Immunity Belt of Greater False Life
Armor: Icy Raiments (+4 Dodge Bonus)

Discussion:
Hate Tanking is based on generating enough aggro via melee damage to keep the target's attention. Currently this is accomplished by heavy hitters such as Barbarians and Fighters. Monks and monk splash builds often Hate Tank as well but much less effectively. In any case, most (not all, I know there are exceptions) of the time we have to wait on the tank to get enough hate stacked up that the other melee can go in without fear of pulling the mob... particularly in Vision of Destruction.

10+ Turn Undead attempts means this build can maintain Divine Righteousness for 10+ minutes at level 16... plenty of time to finish all bosses.

Val

[rezo]

Looks SWEET!!!

[Demoyn]

The build itself looks pretty decent, but I don't think you'll be generating as much hate as you believe. You're spending two-thirds of your greensteel enhancements on your defense (and lightning strike is utterly horrid) and your strength is lower than DPS builds to begin with. I think you're barely going to be staying even with DPS builds even considering divine righteousness.

I also think I'll see you in two years when you get all of that equipment finally. Until then the build won't sustain much in the way of DPS or survivability. I wish you luck, though... there's a lot of potential if you can see it through (and find a way to eek out more DPS from those greensteels).

EDIT: It's also worth noting that you don't have extend spell and casting turns off CE. That could lead to some issues down the road when fighting major bosses and you run out of zeal.

[Valezra]

The build itself looks pretty decent, but I don't think you'll be generating as much hate as you believe. You're spending two-thirds of your greensteel enhancements on your defense (and lightning strike is utterly horrid) and your strength is lower than DPS builds to begin with. I think you're barely going to be staying even with DPS builds even considering divine righteousness.

I also think I'll see you in two years when you get all of that equipment finally. Until then the build won't sustain much in the way of DPS or survivability. I wish you luck, though... there's a lot of potential if you can see it through (and find a way to eek out more DPS from those greensteels).

EDIT: It's also worth noting that you don't have extend spell and casting turns off CE. That could lead to some issues down the road when fighting major bosses and you run out of zeal.

Extend was already mentioned in the original post along with CE. Non-fighter DPS builds cap out around 30 Strength so being a base 26 isn't far off.

A typical non crit swing generates 1d8 (4.5 Average) + 5 Weapon + 8 Strength + 3 Divine Favor +2 Racial Damage + 7 Bard Songs in a raid which equals about 29.5 Damage Mainhand and 25.5 Offhand. With Divine Righteousness that is the equal threat generation of 58 Damage mainhand and 51 offhand at Tempest speed.

From Gfunk's DPS calcs this build most closely matches the Elf Dex based vs Favored Enemy. The damage on this build when tanking will actually be slightly higher but not enough to care. (DPS goes up even more when not tanking). The Elf Dex Based Tempest puts out approx 1051. With Divine Righteousness I would be putting out about 2102 Damage equivalent threat. The warforged KotC is the highest DPS build on the list that can't reduce their threat (like a rogue) and tops out around 1486 DPS. The Hatetank shouldn't have any problem holding aggro right fromt the get-go.

I am revising the mainhand weapon to be a rapier for a slight increase in DPS.

This build should not need the little 1d6 Acid on a Greensteel plus the occassional crit amount to hold threat. Lightning II is great.

Val

[Demoyn]

From Gfunk's DPS calcs this build most closely matches the Elf Dex based vs Favored Enemy.

How can you even delude yourself into thinking that? Gfunks DPS calcs include equipment that yours won't have (purely offensive greensteel weapons and madstone boots at the very least) and power attack, which you can't have on with CE. That's not even to mention to-hit rates, which aren't calculated into his thread at all.

Even in your best case scenario a few lucky crits by a DPS build and a few poor rolls from you could lead to the same thing. Try your character; in a few years when you've got all of your equipment I hope you prove me wrong, but I won't hold my breath.

[Aranticus]

hp dps n enhancement breakdown pls

[valorik]

Build Goals:
1 - Achieve Self-Buffed Sustained AC of 70+
2 - Achieve above average DPS when not tanking.
3 - Achieve Premium Hate generation for tanking.
4 - Beholder Saves over 30.
5 - Evasion.

Level 16 Drow - 14 Paladin/2 Monk

HP: 421

Saves with GH buff only:
Fort: 37
Reflex: 37
Will: 36

Stats:
Str: 14 +4 Levelups +2 Tome +6 Item = 26
Dex: 15 +2 Tome +6 Item +1 Light II +2 Race = 26
Con: 10 +2 Tome +6 Item = 18
Int: 11 +2 Tome = 13
Wis: 14 + 2 Tome +1 monk +3 Shroud +6 Item = 26
Cha: 16 +2 Tome +2 Pally +6 Item = 26

Feats:
Toughness
TWF
Dodge
TWF Defense
ITWF
GTWF
Power Attack
Combat Expertise

Skills:
UMD: 9.5+...
Balance: 19+...
a few points elsewhere...

Armor Class:
Base 10
Armor 8
Icy 4
Insight 4
Aura 4
CE 5
Prot 5
Chattering 3
Dodge 1
Shield 4
Dex 8
Wis 8
Bark 3
Armor ritual 1
Haste 1
TWF Defense 1

Self Buffed and Sustained = 70

Bard Song 4
Recitation 2
Bark 2

Raid Buffed and Sustained = 78

Mod 9

Aura 1
Siberys III Aura 1
+? Aura
+4 Superior Stance

= 85+

UMD (easy):
9.5 ranks
8 Charisma
3 Cartouche
4 Greater Hero
1 Voice
6 Shroud

31.5 = 65% Shield (10) wand

UMD (raid):
9.5 ranks
8 Charisma
5 7FG
4 Greater Hero
2 HoGF
6 Shroud

34.5 = 80% Shield (10) wand

Attack: 15 + 5 + 8 + 2 enhancements + 2 Tumbleweed - 2 TWF = 30 Beholder
Attack: 15 + 5 + 8 + 2 enhancements + 2 Tumbleweed -2 TWF + 3 Divine Favor + 1 Haste + 4 Greater Hero = 38
Raid: +2-3 Bard = 40-41 Attack

Beholder Values:
AC: 63
Attack: 25-30
Saves: 32+

GEAR
Mainhand: Lightning II Shortsword (Holy, +1 Dex, +4 AC, Lightning Proc)
Offhand: Mineral II Shortsword (Holy, +3 Wisdom, Keen, Transmuting, Bleed)

Head: Minos Legen
Cloak: Charisma +6
Necklace: Mineral II (45 HP, Heavy Fort, +5 Protection)
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles
Trinket: Bloodstone
Bracers: Armor +8
Boots: Greensteel A-A-A (+300 SP, +6 Charisma Skills, 4.5 minutes of Haste)
Gloves: Strength +6
Ring 1: Tumbleweed (+2 Attack, Tumble, +6 Dexterity)
Ring 2: Chattering Ring (+3 Dodge)
Belt: Constitution +6
Armor: Icy Raiments (+4 Dodge Bonus)




Discussion:
Hate Tanking is based on generating enough aggro via melee damage to keep the target's attention. Currently this is accomplished by heavy hitters such as Barbarians and Fighters. Monks and monk splash builds often Hate Tank as well but much less effectively. In any case, most (not all, I know there are exceptions) of the time we have to wait on the tank to get enough hate stacked up that the other melee can go in without fear of pulling the mob... particularly in Vision of Destruction.

Specifically building around Hate Tanking is the concept of generating more DPS aggro than the rest of the party in order to reduce or altogether eliminate the wait and reduce the chance of someone pulling aggro off of you.

This build utilizes 4 things to boost it's Hate generation:
1 - Zeal: Attacking 10% faster puts you on par with Tempest attack speeds and helps close the gap on high strength Barbarians. Alone this is not enough.
2 - Divine Righteousness: This 1 minute clicky allows the Paladin to generate double threat from his or her melee attacks.
3 - Base Strength of sufficient magnitude to assist in generating more damage. Most monk splashes focus so much on Dex and Wis that Strength is often left too low to generate lots of aggro right out of the chute.
4 - GTWF for maximum damage output.

With a 26 Strength, Divine Favor, Racial enhancements, and Divine Righteousness this build generates the approximate equivilant threat of a 110 Strength Tempest Ranger.

13+ Turn Undead attempts means this build can maintain Divine Righteousness for 13+ minutes... plenty of time to finish all bosses.

So what about the other 90% of the time when you're not tanking? Turn off Combat Expertise and turn on Power Attack. Then, instead of using Divine Righteousness to boost your aggro you will have 13+ minutes of Divine Might II (+4 Damage). Combine 26 Base Strength, Divine Might II, Power Attack, a Rage Pot, Divine Favor, and Zeal and you will be dealing a large amount of punishment. This would be the approximate equivilant of a 40 strength Tempest also using Power Attack and Rage pots. Not mind shattering, but definately notable. Note, this build is set up for taking Divine Might III at level 17 (Paladin 15).

Before someone points out the lack of Extend, I would just like to point out that I have used Combat Expertise extensively on my Ranger Tank and the delay in turning CE back on after casting is not that big of deal. Without Extend, Zeal lasts almost 2 minutes and you really don't need more than the first minute of Divine Favor when tanking. So, the typical strategy would be to cast Zeal, then Divine Favor, then turn on CE and swing away. If the fight goes over 2 minutes you will probably be so far ahead of everyone else on the aggro table that you won't need to refresh either spell to finish the fight. When not tanking I don't mind having to recast those spells to keep my DPS up. The alternative is to drop TWF Defense and lose 1 AC to grab Extend.


There is more than one way to skin a cat and I know you could go with Halfling and focus more heavily on dex to get another +4 to +6 AC but I felt that was getting to be overkill and I was missing out on a lot of strength and Divine Mights.

What do you guys think?

Val

you going defender of siberys in EU? or you going for more dps, in the dos stances you'll get more hate generation (20% I believe)

[Valezra]

you going defender of siberys in EU? or you going for more dps, in the dos stances you'll get more hate generation (20% I believe)

Defender in EU.

[Valezra]

Finally had some time to actually sit down and calc the Hate generation. With Divine Righteousness and Combat Expertise and no Sneak Attack I can only generate about 1100 DPS/round threat unfortunately. When not tanking this build can generate about 30% more. Going back to the drawing board as they say...

Val

[Thanimal]

Syberis stance adds +200% hate. Did your calcs really show that you can't get within 3x of the top DPS builds? That would very shocking to me. (I've been shocked before, of course.)

I (with much help) have been working on a Halfling Hate Tank with some similar principles, and I must admit I never did out the DPS calcs because it seemed ridiculously obvious that no build could deal three TIMES the DPS. If you have a minute, could you post what led you to conclude otherwise?

[Valezra]

Syberis stance adds +200% hate. Did your calcs really show that you can't get within 3x of the top DPS builds? That would very shocking to me. (I've been shocked before, of course.)

I (with much help) have been working on a Halfling Hate Tank with some similar principles, and I must admit I never did out the DPS calcs because it seemed ridiculously obvious that no build could deal three TIMES the DPS. If you have a minute, could you post what led you to conclude otherwise?

I wasn't sure if Syberis would stack with Divine Righteousness. I'm currently working on tweaking the build to eek out some more DPS.

[Thanimal]

I wasn't sure if Syberis would stack with Divine Righteousness. I'm currently working on tweaking the build to eek out some more DPS.

I'm assuming it doesn't; the 3rd tier of Syberis is +200% (i.e. 3x) all by itself.

[Valezra]

I'm assuming it doesn't; the 3rd tier of Syberis is +200% (i.e. 3x) all by itself.

The stance which essentially triples your threat would make the build almost viable as is. I'd like it to be viable with just Divine Righteousness however (2x) if I can figure out how to swing it.

[Valezra]

Not that anyone cares but my current build is 1 AC off from tanking with PA on. I'll run the calcs at that AC to see where my hate is at later. Still brainstorming where I can get more AC.

Val

[Demoyn]

Not that anyone cares but my current build is 1 AC off from tanking with PA on. I'll run the calcs at that AC to see where my hate is at later. Still brainstorming where I can get more AC.

Val

Post what you have with your modifications and I'll see if I have anything.

[Valezra]

Post what you have with your modifications and I'll see if I have anything.

I switched from Drow to Elf because if your not gonna use CE and you want to dump Charisma then Elf actually gets you further in starting stats. Can still use Rapier Enhancements as well.

Stats currently at:

Str: 24 (15 + 3 Tome + 6 Item)
Dex: 32 (18 + 2 Tome + 2 Elf + 4 Levelups + 6 Item)
Con: 18 (10 + 2 Tome +6 Item)
Int: 8
Wis: 28 (16 + 2 Tome + 1 Monk + 3 Greensteel + 6 Item)
Cha: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Paladin + 6 Item)

AC:
Base 10
Armor 8
Icy 4
Insight 4
Aura 4
Prot 5
Chattering 3
Dodge 1
Shield 4
Dex 11
Wis 9
Bark 3
Armor ritual 1
Haste 1
TWF Defense 1

Self Buffed and Sustained = 69

69 Self Buffed and Sustained is actually plenty... A typical VoD run would see me with +2 Barkskin, +2 Recitation, and +4 Bard Song = 76 AC which should be plenty.

The DPS is looking good too so far. At level 16 and using Divine Righteousness I almost generate the same Hate equal DPS of a level 20 fully Madstoned and geared Monster Build (I will show the calcs once the build is finalized). I am currently about 45 DPS short... note this is DPS not Damage/Round as is used in Gfunk's thread. I switched it to DPS because I feel the math is easier to handle and easier to average out longer duration fights.

For reference I am using an average DPS of 503 for a level 20 Monster over a 5 minute period. see Monster DPS Calc. (It's the bottom calc.) I am currently sitting at 461.9 DPS Hate at level 16. Note, at level 20 I will have 3X hate generation with Siberys III stance resulting in 692.82 DPS Hate with no increased damage from level 16 to 20... which is more than enough to surpass the highest DPS builds (assuming rogues take their subtle backstabbing enhancements). Also note I am achieving this without a ton of Acid damage from my offhand weapon which will help equalize the field on bosses like Suulo.

Val

[Yargore]

For reference I am using an average DPS of 503 for a level 20 Monster over a 5 minute period. see Monster DPS Calc. (It's the bottom calc.)
Val

That calc is using the wrong formlas to calculate attackspeed, so the dps is abit off.
The correct number should be 459.
Pure kensais are also at 459.
But remember that if you have aggro, they can get SA.
Thus putting their DPS at around 490, and if they were halflings they should be able to push 500 DPS.

It shouldn't be any problems to gain hate aggro though, as syberis and divine righteoussness adds a hefty amount of hate.

[Valezra]

Calculated to-hit:

With PA on and an oversized penalty I am at 34 Attack on my base chain.

So my attack chain will look like:
Main Hand / Off Hand:
34 / 34
34 / 34
39 / 39
44 / 44
44 / 44

Let's say a total roll of 40 is a hit and anything less is a miss. This results in missing 12% of the time. Considering that a level 16 Monster has about a 36 to-hit or 8% miss chance I'd say I'm not that far off from a good benchmark. When the Hatetank hits level 20 the gap will be almost completely closed.

Val

[Valezra]

That calc is using the wrong formlas to calculate attackspeed, so the dps is abit off.
The correct number should be 459.
Pure kensais are also at 459.
But remember that if you have aggro, they can get SA.
Thus putting their DPS at around 490, and if they were halflings they should be able to push 500 DPS.

It shouldn't be any problems to gain hate aggro though, as syberis and divine righteoussness adds a hefty amount of hate.

Interesting, could you please explain where they calced it wrong so I'm not reproducing the same mistake? Thanks in advance.

Val

[Yargore]

Interesting, could you please explain where they calced it wrong so I'm not reproducing the same mistake? Thanks in advance.

Val

In my first calcs I calculated attackspeed the way a dev said it worked, but it has now been proven that way is not accurate, and that the Attack Speed Increase Estimator found in this thread (in the OP) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=cforce calculates the DPS accuratly.

Attackspeeds are very complicated in DDO, so for your own health, use the Attack Speed Increase Estimator whenever you calc DPS