Explain why you think Monk DPS isn't good

[Alavatar]

A s&b tank with only 2 parts of the set is just gimping himself. Now all 3 items, that's a different story, still 1 less ac but at that point a worthy tradeoff.

btw it's levik's.

You guys must run with some elite fellows if having these RAID items is standard issue equipment and that not having them is akin to gimping your character.

My poor Fighter is still attempting to gear up. Still have a lot of work to do and it will probably not be nearly complete once Mod9 hits. Especially since I have grown bored of the game recently...

[SableShadow]

and that not having them is akin to gimping your character.

Didn't you get the memo? Not Best Spec (NBS) = GIMP

Also, D&D is the work of Satan (but only 4th Ed).

[Vivanto]

You guys must run with some elite fellows if having these RAID items is standard issue equipment and that not having them is akin to gimping your character.

My poor Fighter is still attempting to gear up. Still have a lot of work to do and it will probably not be nearly complete once Mod9 hits. Especially since I have grown bored of the game recently...

Erm you read it the other way, NOT having them is the good thing. If you equip it that means you can't use chaosguard which is better ac than the set, even with all 3 items.

It's pretty lame that a level 9 loot item is better than you get from a lvl 18 raid, but seems you didn't know that.

[Monkey_Archer]

Oh now we get to have some fun

You are contradicting your earlier statement. You are the one admitting here that the higher attack rate dosen't make up for the better crits, I simply used every calc by your logic

lol... saying bard buffs "hardly benefit the monk more then the fighter" is admitting that they are about equal.

Any gimp fighter will have 36 str in mod 9, if a monk gets that 34 you're suggesting, he is just severly gimping himself in every other area. Sure, most of the current noobs who are rolling all dex monks are even more gimped, but going out all str is also a bad idea on a stat heavy class. You must be really desperate to try to justify and point sticks on such a small and fair difference.

We are talking mod 8... using mod 9 fighter abilities vs mod 8 monk abilities is just stupid. We dont know yet what ring effects will be available, and monk will eventually get PrEs so it is unfair to compare apples to oranges.
Ummm... 16 starting strength gimps a monk? rofl... my monk started with 16 and has a self buffed ac of 60ish (no icy, no chattering ring)
Sure if you want to compare a max str fighter vs a dex monk ill forfeit right now

Not in the forseeable future, given turbine's development cycle it will take at least another 6 months after ddou launch to get anything done about them. We are discussing what they can do now, or what we know. Not what they could do.

Exactly.. mod 8 vs mod 8.

Correct, so should I just get rid of that 3d6 die I used as well then?

yes. as you can see my calc used 2d8.

(hint: fighters will be amongs the top dps kings in mod 9 fyi)

Among the top, yes.
But then what if monks get holy transmuting rings of powersurge?

Now you are contradicting yourself on the wind stance argument

yeah... using fire stance benefits the fighter....

That's just stupid and you know that too

Assuming dps monks should start with less then 16 strength is stupid.
34 strength is easy on a fire stance monk.. 31 str wind stance monk would do EVEN MORE dps anyway.

Bastard sword is a favorable comparision vs monks since it's a gimp melee, if you wanna argue that a monk is comparable to a gimp melee then I concur.

Bastard sword on a fighter is no more gimped then a fire stance on a monk.

Again you contradict yourself stating that 2 extra damage is worth more than 10% more attacks

lol... i use fire stance because its easier, not because its higher dps,... and nowhere did i say it was.

Been there, done that, still waste of time when you can usually fill fast enough as already discussed (5 hits 1 strike)

which is the flaw in your assumption of monk potential.
Full ki bar = 1 hit 1 strike

[Aranticus]

I honestly don't think that any of these are "average builds" and yours is certainly not. Your fighter is a highly tuned and equiped with most of the key raid items. I wish any of my toons were as well set up as that. I don't think most players have that level of build and so while I agree that Monks probably won't compare all that well super twinked to super twinked verses other melee classes, the reality is most builds are somewhere in the middle and a resonable monk build isn't going to lag behind by more than 5 or 10% from the general population.

this is precisely what i'm trying to get at. people tanking suulo are likely to be super twinked (or at least quite twinked). this is what the OP stated

Maybe I am missing something. But I hit Suul and Harry with my fist 16 to 25 even with DR (on normal) and my crit numbers are in to 60 to 80's then add the fact I use GEOB.

I cant tell you how many times I go in to VOD and I pull agro off the main tank

to suggest that he can steal agro from a highly twinked character, that does 30-60 on a normal hit, crits of 100-200, without the interference of any of the conditions which i listed is quite laughable

[Aranticus]

Did you EVER think..... quite possibly the others DIED when he turned on them... after that I wont reply to any more comments by you as crude and dull witted.

what i can quite possibly think of is someone else actually pulled the agro off the main tank, they died and the agro probably bounced to you as you landed the 1st blow. once the tank get a few hits of, the agro went back to the tank

[Enochroot]

what i can quite possibly think of is someone else actually pulled the agro off the main tank, they died and the agro probably bounced to you as you landed the 1st blow. once the tank get a few hits of, the agro went back to the tank

This dude is nuts, and clearly incorrect.

His first statement was "he turned for a split second and just cursed me" - and now it's "everyone else around me died" - lol, sully does damage when he turns around ... but you ever see him simply wipe a whole party in a split second? And this is without cursing anyone else? Just killing them outright?

Just say it Kaboth - your monk is a hero in your mind's eye and there's no other way it could possibly be.

[Aranticus]

You're forgetting most self-respecting S&B tanks will have the lorik's set - at least 2 parts if not all 3 parts of it, and thus be getting a lot more hate generation. That makes up for the S&B dps when it comes to holding Sulu's agro.

Garth

my fighter's ac is in the 70s range which happens to be in the d20 range of suulo. each point of AC is important. i prefer the shroud insight + chaosgarde combo of +6 ac over the 3 piece levik +5 insight. come next mod, it will be different

[Vivanto]

my fighter's ac is in the 70s range which happens to be in the d20 range of suulo. each point of AC is important. i prefer the shroud insight + chaosgarde combo of +6 ac over the 3 piece levik +5 insight. come next mod, it will be different

That's what I tried to tell for which they called me an elitist

[Aranticus]

You guys must run with some elite fellows if having these RAID items is standard issue equipment and that not having them is akin to gimping your character.

My poor Fighter is still attempting to gear up. Still have a lot of work to do and it will probably not be nearly complete once Mod9 hits. Especially since I have grown bored of the game recently...

you dun really need to be elite people to think of them as a standard issue. obtaining the gear for a SnB toon can be quite easy these days thanks to how raid loot and crafting gear is assigned

shroud runs in general drop 1.5 large ingredients per run and to make a minII with insight +4, you will need 24 larges = 16 runs

DT armor just need 1 run of prey, kobold, monastry, sos. the tough part is for the leviks or +3 dodge rune but these are gravy

chaosgarde can be easily found in AH or farming xorian 10 times will likely net you 1-2 gardes, 1 belt

leviks shield can be easily obtained in 20 runs and considering how quick the run is, it is not difficult to get 20 runs

i'm not saying that its darn easy to get. what i'm saying is you can be a regular player and probably run these quest once or twice a week and within 10 weeks (3 months to be more lenient) one can have a toon with high AC

that said, my fighter is quite highly twinked but that is not because its due to meeting that high AC but rather attempting to max both AC, DPS as well as survivability. just think, raid buffed AC in 70s in SnB mode, max DPS with bloodstone tharnes goggles in TWF mode, 60 intimidate. to focus on a single area is not hard, to perform 2 or more roles is

[SableShadow]

...

Side note: LFMs for SoS excluding monks in favor of other melee ... these group leaders need their heads examined.

[Vivanto]

Oh now we get to have some fun

lol... saying bard buffs "hardly benefit the monk more then the fighter" is admitting that they are about equal.

We are talking mod 8... using mod 9 fighter abilities vs mod 8 monk abilities is just stupid. We dont know yet what ring effects will be available, and monk will eventually get PrEs so it is unfair to compare apples to oranges.
Sure, so will clerics, wizards, sorcerers and pretty much every class that dosen't yet have all his tier 3 pres. In fact we know more from casters than any monk stuff. Also we will get druids, epic levels, lots of content and raids SOON. You're just dodging facts with pathetic assumptions. You said it's mod 8 and I should only use that intel, even tough we know pretty much everything that comes in mod 9, yet you try to justify your statements with only wild speculations that may not even come in a year (or ever).
Ummm... 16 starting strength gimps a monk? rofl... my monk started with 16 and has a self buffed ac of 60ish (no icy, no chattering ring)
Sure if you want to compare a max str fighter vs a dex monk ill forfeit right now
Show me where I said dex monk. Yes, 16 starting str costs in other areas, you will have less hp or dc on attacks, less ac, you won't be able to qualify for either earth 4 or wind 4 or even both.


Exactly.. mod 8 vs mod 8.


yes. as you can see my calc used 2d8.


Among the top, yes.
But then what if monks get holy transmuting rings of powersurge?
Then I'd just say you're delusional. But even then, there will be the rogue,barb,ranger,pally between the monk and the fighter

yeah... using fire stance benefits the fighter....
Matter of perspective. Since it gimps your monk, it benefits any other melees in comparision


Assuming dps monks should start with less then 16 strength is stupid.
34 strength is easy on a fire stance monk.. 31 str wind stance monk would do EVEN MORE dps anyway.
Think outside of the box. My first monk started with 14 str and had a decent 30 ending, meanwhile also had 60 beholder ac, great DCs and saves, over 400 hp.. The bolded part just shows how inconsistent your posts are and confirms that actually fire stance is gimping, not helping by your pov


Bastard sword on a fighter is no more gimped then a fire stance on a monk.
You're the one insisting on fire stance, are you just voluntarily gimping yourself to give a chance to the poor fighter?

lol... i use fire stance because its easier, not because its higher dps,... and nowhere did i say it was.


which is the flaw in your assumption of monk potential.
Full ki bar = 1 hit 1 strike
Time and again you fail to grasp it's basics. It's totally irrelevant if you have your full ki bar to spend, you had to fill it up first.
If you filled up using no strikes meanwhile then you used the gained ki to the exact same efficiency as you would if you just spend during gaining them.

But nevermind, lets give you your full ki since I see you won't get past that.

Even then you keep missing that the cooldowns are limiting. You can perform a strike for what, every 3 seconds or so. During that 3 seconds you perform 10 hits totally unbuffed, unhasted, unstanced. Meaning you gain double the ki you need. With wind and haste thats even more, ultimately resulting in overkilling your ki, that's why fire is gimping.

You can start circling between strikes, but then you're just using less damaging attacks. For sally only earth and wind works, can perform earth 4 wind 4 and you still have more ki so you need to spend on earth 3 and the lesser strikes.
You see, even without fire, you gain more ki than you could effectively spend, hence it's gimping. May as well just stay in wind, still gain the necessary ki, even more, and use 1-2 less weaker strikes.

As you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, I'll just stop arguing with a fool.

[jmonty]

Side note: LFMs for SoS excluding monks in favor of other melee ... these group leaders need their heads examined.

it might have to do with where monks are on the create group panel. but then some people really don't like monks.

my monk is lvl 8 [dex/wis] and a blast to play.

[Asketes]

590 on a 24 con non barb toon? too many toughness taken to gimped the toon

Sorry for the late reply. (we drove from luisianna THROUGH texas and are in New Mexico now.. long drive hehe


i believe i had only taken one of the toughness feats and the enhancements. i'll be able to give more info when i get home

[Monkey_Archer]

Sure, so will clerics, wizards, sorcerers and pretty much every class that dosen't yet have all his tier 3 pres. In fact we know more from casters than any monk stuff. Also we will get druids, epic levels, lots of content and raids SOON. You're just dodging facts with pathetic assumptions. You said it's mod 8 and I should only use that intel, even tough we know pretty much everything that comes in mod 9, yet you try to justify your statements with only wild speculations that may not even come in a year (or ever).

Why do you want to compare a mod 9 fighter with a mod 8 monk anyway?

Show me where I said dex monk. Yes, 16 starting str costs in other areas, you will have less hp or dc on attacks, less ac, you won't be able to qualify for either earth 4 or wind 4 or even both.

please enlighten me to your narrow minded view of how a monk must be built...

Then I'd just say you're delusional. But even then, there will be the rogue,barb,ranger,pally between the monk and the fighter

Joke meet Vivanto, Vivanto meet Joke...

Think outside of the box. My first monk started with 14 str and had a decent 30 ending, meanwhile also had 60 beholder ac, great DCs and saves, over 400 hp.. The bolded part just shows how inconsistent your posts are and confirms that actually fire stance is gimping, not helping by your pov

I suggest you take a deep breath, then go back and re-read my posts...
My POV is that without enemy DR, monk dps is on-par with fighters. And wether you take my calc that shows the monk slightly ahead, or yours which shows the fighter slightly ahead, both prove my point.

You're the one insisting on fire stance, are you just voluntarily gimping yourself to give a chance to the poor fighter?

Thats one way to look at it.

Time and again you fail to grasp it's basics. It's totally irrelevant if you have your full ki bar to spend, you had to fill it up first.
If you filled up using no strikes meanwhile then you used the gained ki to the exact same efficiency as you would if you just spend during gaining them.

Wrong. If you stay in wind stance with dps weapons then yes, you obtain the same efficeincy. IF you switch to a ki building weapon (like weighted 5%), use stunning blow, and/or switch to fire stance, you can fill your ki bar in seconds.... which gives you enough ki to spam ki strikes for minutes.

But nevermind, lets give you your full ki since I see you won't get past that.

Even then you keep missing that the cooldowns are limiting. You can perform a strike for what, every 3 seconds or so. During that 3 seconds you perform 10 hits totally unbuffed, unhasted, unstanced. Meaning you gain double the ki you need. With wind and haste thats even more, ultimately resulting in overkilling your ki, that's why fire is gimping.

You can start circling between strikes, but then you're just using less damaging attacks. For sally only earth and wind works, can perform earth 4 wind 4 and you still have more ki so you need to spend on earth 3 and the lesser strikes.
You see, even without fire, you gain more ki than you could effectively spend, hence it's gimping. May as well just stay in wind, still gain the necessary ki, even more, and use 1-2 less weaker strikes.

You clearly have no idea how to play a monk so let me explain.

Building Ki in fire stance with any auto crit effect of you choice (stun, weighted, friendly caster, etc..) take seconds...
Spending that ki you just gained in seconds takes minutes...

In 1 round (5 attacks, 10 hits ignoring misses and crits) you gain 10 ki
10 ki is enough for 2 strikes per round... or every 2 out of 5 attacks
Strike cooldown is roughly the length of 1.5 rounds
That means you must cycle 3 differnt strikes (fire 3, air3, water 3)
Add that up and you get (10.5*4) / 10 attacks = 4.2 damage per hit at the very least.

In fire stance you gain double the ki, which give you 4 ki strikes per round, but you need to then cycle 6 different strikes (air3, water 3, fire 3, air 2, water 2, fire 2)
Add that up and you get (10.5*4) + (7*4) / 10 attacks = 7 damage per hit.

Assuming you play you monk smart (ie build ki when dps doesnt matter like vorapling trash mobs or something) then every hit can be a strike.
You then need to cycle 7 differnt strikes (air3, water 3, fire 3, air2, water 2, fire 2, earth 3)
Add that up: ((10.5*3) + (7*3) + 8) / 7 attacks = 8.6 damage per hit

Assuming your target is immune to most strikes (like harry or sally)
we use air3, air2, air 1, earth 3, earth 2, earth 1, fist of darkness
total (10.5+7+3.5+8+8+4+7) / 7 = 6.9 damage per hit

So...
Wind stance monk with 0 starting ki can add 4.2 damage per hit
Fire stance monk with 0 starting ki can add 7 damage per hit
Wind stance monk with full ki bar can add 8.6 damage per hit
Wind stance monk with full ki bar vs harry can add 6.9 damage per hit

Given these numbers i see nothing wrong with assuming that ki strikes add 5 damage on average.

As you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, I'll just stop arguing with a fool.

Yes stop arguing so this fool can teach you how to play a monk.

[Vivanto]

You clearly have no idea how to play a monk so let me explain.

Hahh, hahh, hahaha. Thanks for the lesson mr teacher. To your surprise I do know how to play them thankyaverymuch. In case you missed, I've been all through those experiences what you describe in your posts, probably even more.

Building Ki in fire stance with any auto crit effect of you choice (stun, weighted, friendly caster, etc..) take seconds...

Or just use stunning fist and quit wasting -yet more- time by swapping weapons. Shows who dosen't play monks, or you just gimped your wis by going too high starting str, nevermind the loss in dc with fire stance.

Spending that ki you just gained in seconds takes minutes...

The # of hits performed is still the same, point remains. Btw in case you missed, we are talking about bosses, non-stunnable, non-auto-crittable. If it's anything else, you can already kill them dozens of other ways, not to mention if you can stun em, you can qp em too.

Yes stop arguing so this fool can teach you how to play a monk.

How cute of you, I've probably played the whole game a bit longer, but nevermind, one can always learn I guess.. especially wise quotes from you, I'll treasure this as always.

[twoton]

For the people that like to play monks enjoy them and dont waste your time here trying to convince people that they are a good class.

Is the monk class gimped in some areas (duh!) Was the ranger, pally and fighter gimped before (duh!) I remember when if a full class fighter wanted to join and a multiclass wanted to join you would have been stupid to pass up on the multiclass.

I find pugs that want only this or that class for melee dps are worried about the quest. Which dont get me wrong if you dont really know the quest or not good at the quest yet you should go for the best group make up. I do see more people excepting monks in high lvl stuff because they know the quests better and arent worried that stuff wont die fast enough.

So for they people that still havent made a monk and never will and dont understand how they work leave them off your pug listings. For the people that have played a monk to cap you know what they can and cant do and will probably keep them on their pug listings.