Explain why you think Monk DPS isn't good

[Kaboth]

lol

I might be wrong, but I think you might be mocking me, but its true, and there have been good tanks in there that I draw agro from, since using diplo, I draw tons less agro from the MT. I doubt anyone would beleive me as much negative press Monks get, and I have TOO much on my plate to take the time and video it and post it.

Both Sulu and Harry are immune to Curse effects including Healing Curse

I can not comment further on this currently in game, because its true, for now...BUT they can be Eagle Clawed and Unbalancing Striked.

Using a Ki strike does not give you 'an extra attack' (above the 10 you get from gtwf) - it just adds the Ki damage to your next attack.

Are you absolutely sure on this, because, I turn on auto attack, and spam/mash my special attacks and the sequence loks like an extra attack.

Monks vs non DR mobs using good handwraps can be very very good DPS - problem is the DR (as other posters have already said).

Garth

With that said, as I said, with monks its not ALL about the DPS. Quick example, would you rather have an arcane/divine caster with all nuke spells loaded and never any cures/buff spells OR would you rather have a caster with at least a decent mix up?

[Enochroot]

I don't know why I'm even getting into this, but I just can't stop myself =)

thats with DR already absorbed FYI, and it might be poor for a DPS build, but I think you forgot to read the part about my monk NOT being a DPS build (nor AC build).

I realize this was after DR - and it will look worse hard and elite. Not to mention it's not even as much damage as my dex-based cleric ... blegh.

True, but would it not be better to have Destruction, Eagle Claw and Unbalancing strike on the mob? -10 to AC as opposed to only -4, Walk the Sun added, and one single monk effectively made the mob 40% easier to hit (AND Crit on if applicable).

40% easier? You're assuming people are even missing? And does that all apply to purple nameds (again, don't have a monk, and I don't see monks hitting sully/harry with that stuff)?

Take a couple of monks in for quests like Scorpion or Kobold and see how well they do. IRCC those are currently the highest level quests in game (try them on hard)

And least run, we can talk about armor crafting somewhere else. I already said, monks are generally useful, IN QUEST. High evasion / high ac is generally very useful in those quests, but it doesn't only apply to monks. And I believe there's better builds than monk to accomplish this.

We will have to agree that we disagree here, I strongly feel that a well balanced and well played monk is extremely underestimated in their value or contribution to the game. With that being said, do they still some work, absolutely, but hardly gimped as bad as everyone thinks. I recall a time bards were extremely underestimated and valued in a party/raid. Now it seems you are always looking for a bard for raids, my bard in the begining was one of the few bards (of the few bards actually played) that maxed out his songs effectiveness and durations which the party and raids loved. Was my bard super rawking melee/DPS'ers? Heck naw. No AC, no HP, LOL, I stayed in the back for back up trash, used ranged weapons, and wand healed, etc.

Um, ok, they might be good later, doesn't mean they're good now. Same goes for lots of classes, they have come and gone, all.

If anyone plays a monk up to 16, that honestly tries to play the class for other than DPS/AC they can see the huge benefits. How many monks you know take the Animal Path of "Way of the Clever Monkey"? I am one of the few I know that does that. Why? Mainly it is for the stackable Energy Resistance of 8 across the board, yes it stacks, and stacks with the extra bonuses. When I am done with my monk, I whould have atleast 3 Energy Resistances at 48 and the others at 38 to 43, and different configurations.

Am I the best monk, absoutely not, I get took cocky and run off and die sometimes, but that helps me learn my monk. However, my monk is VERY survivable, when they get mod 9 in, monks WILL be better, and I think thats all I am allowed to say.

Wow, energy resistance ... you've certainly proved my gut wrong.

[Kaboth]

I realize this was after DR - and it will look worse hard and elite. Not to mention it's not even as much damage as my dex-based cleric ... blegh.

Honestly, I think its more damage, but I dont focus on my DPS only, but next time I play, I will try to pay more attention.

40% easier? You're assuming people are even missing? And does that all apply to purple nameds (again, don't have a monk, and I don't see monks hitting sully/harry with that stuff)?

Thats because most monks dont take all 4 elemental paths that allow them to do all the buffs and debuffs, they focus on Wind Stance. Hence why you DONT see it. I suppose you guess even the best of builds never missed or die or get debuffed, etc...but again yet another narrow view in the full aspect of strategy.

And least run, we can talk about armor crafting somewhere else. I already said, monks are generally useful, IN QUEST. High evasion / high ac is generally very useful in those quests, but it doesn't only apply to monks. And I believe there's better builds than monk to accomplish this.

Thats because you dont know the monk and ALL of its true potential. With mod 9, people will being those quests for XP as well trying to get to level 20.

Um, ok, they might be good later, doesn't mean they're good now. Same goes for lots of classes, they have come and gone, all.

I think they are good now, most monks are just poorely implemented. if you Want DPS, make a dad gum barbarian. Why try bend a class to something its not if you are that focused on DPS?

Wow, energy resistance ... you've certainly proved my gut wrong.

Snarky saracastic comment, but I will talk about this one, even improved evasion builds get tagged with elemental AOE's, Okay, I dont have Tortoise which is like 30 extra HP, if in a raid or a quest, I get hit 3 or more spells in a situation that does elemental damage that extra 8 just paid for itself.

Now case in point two, every get killed by burning blood, acid rain or acid fog, or added all three? I can take a burning blood and not worry having to equip restance items to take it. Yes buffs cover it, but again your buffs never been dispelled?

This is exactly the narrow minded and unexperienced view of monks that exists ("Wow Energy Resitance"), which is such a naive approach.

[BLAKROC]

monk dps is also lowered by most monk have little or no str. Yes you can build a High str monk but not many do. It's mostly dex for Higher AC. When a (unnamed) monk let me know in a group that he did pop a rage pot and he was at 19 str. I was no longer confused as to why the baddie wasn't dying. Not saying it's all bad just a trade off, as the same monk hardly needed heals but dps is lacking and all know that.

making the crit range better on Handwraps to 19-20 would be a big improvement.

[Aranticus]

I might be wrong, but I think you might be mocking me, but its true, and there have been good tanks in there that I draw agro from, since using diplo, I draw tons less agro from the MT. I doubt anyone would beleive me as much negative press Monks get, and I have TOO much on my plate to take the time and video it and post it.

there are basically 3 types of tanks in vod

1. ranger monks with 80 ac twf - unless they have a 10 str, it can be hard for a monk to pull agro off them, possible reason? couple of lightning strikes

2. snb melees with 70+ ac - snb, possibly with CE up. 1 weapon vs 2 weapons. go figure

3. hp melees - thf or twf with PA up, almost impossible to lose agro unless suulo just reappear, or lightning strikes

my fighter has 40 raid buff str, full weapon spec, bloodstone, goggles, haste boost, dual min 2 khopeshes. when raid buffed, my base number is in the 40s, crits can top 150 (before weapon effects). i seldom lose agro when i'm twf. against sally, i may lose agro becoz i'm in snb mode with CE instead of PA. else you can try pull agro off me

[Kaboth]

there are basically 3 types of tanks in vod

1. ranger monks with 80 ac twf - unless they have a 10 str, it can be hard for a monk to pull agro off them, possible reason? couple of lightning strikes

2. snb melees with 70+ ac - snb, possibly with CE up. 1 weapon vs 2 weapons. go figure

3. hp melees - thf or twf with PA up, almost impossible to lose agro unless suulo just reappear, or lightning strikes

my fighter has 40 raid buff str, full weapon spec, bloodstone, goggles, haste boost, dual min 2 khopeshes. when raid buffed, my base number is in the 40s, crits can top 150 (before weapon effects). i seldom lose agro when i'm twf. against sally, i may lose agro becoz i'm in snb mode with CE instead of PA. else you can try pull agro off me

Its only my word and observations, but on Suul, many times I have seen the curse on my head and the tanks head and no one elses, which to me indicates he atleast turned his attention to me for a brief duration enough to hit and curse me and beats the heck out of me until the tank Intim's and/or I diplo. FYI his diplo number is around 43-ish.

My little bear is up, and Poppa bear has to go feed and entertain him. He turns two on Saturday.

[Aranticus]

Its only my word and observations, but on Suul, many times I have seen the curse on my head and the tanks head and no one elses, which to me indicates he atleast turned his attention to me for a brief duration enough to hit and curse me and beats the heck out of me until the tank Intim's and/or I diplo. FYI his diplo number is around 43-ish.

My little bear is up, and Poppa bear has to go feed and entertain him. He turns two on Saturday.

even better, it just means you are standing in the wrong position. if you stand slightly to suulo's left or right you can still get hit by him

no fail intim on suulo is a 56. you get a -4 size penalty

[Kaboth]

even better, it just means you are standing in the wrong position. if you stand slightly to suulo's left or right you can still get hit by him

no fail intim on suulo is a 56. you get a -4 size penalty

You assume I dont know that, but I try to stand his back, direct back, but it still happens, and I am not intimidating Sulo, Diplomacy. Which I am certain is a different target number.

[Aranticus]

You assume I dont know that, but I try to stand his back, direct back, but it still happens, and I am not intimidating Sulo, Diplomacy. Which I am certain is a different target number.

you can get alot of feedback and opinions from many sources and i'm sure that most will agree with me. its not that i look down on monks or on you but it is very hard to believe your monk can out dps a tank with hits of 25ish (when a good tank will do 30-60ish) to grab agro. sure there can be senarios of pulling agro and i have seen them

1. multiple lightning strikes
2. crit double smites
3. multishot
4. unbridled twf with PA up
5. tank not in full dps mode

if your situation doesnt involve one of these, it is very unbelieveable

[Enochroot]

Its only my word and observations, but on Suul, many times I have seen the curse on my head and the tanks head and no one elses, which to me indicates he atleast turned his attention to me for a brief duration enough to hit and curse me and beats the heck out of me until the tank Intim's and/or I diplo. FYI his diplo number is around 43-ish.

My little bear is up, and Poppa bear has to go feed and entertain him. He turns two on Saturday.

You assume I dont know that, but I try to stand his back, direct back, but it still happens, and I am not intimidating Sulo, Diplomacy. Which I am certain is a different target number.

You're great. We KNOW you don't know that, because if he turned around, OTHER people would get cursed too. By saying no one else got cursed you're actually damaging your position. ESPECIALLY because with what your saves should be you should be one of the hardest to curse.

Based on your OWN comment, we can assume you didn't pull aggro onto the group.

[Vivanto]

1) 36 vs 30 str favors the fighter. Any str based monk would start with 16 strength. A fighter would start with 18 and has +3 enhancements. So a 30 vs 35 or 31 vs 36 is more reasonable.
2)Bard buffs hardly benefit the monk more then the fighter... yes the monk has higher rate of attack, but the fighter has more crits which would then do more damage... (unless you are admitting that unarmed attack rate is equal to extra crits )
You are contradicting your earlier statement. You are the one admitting here that the higher attack rate dosen't make up for the better crits, I simply used every calc by your logic
3)Where are the ki strikes?
Any gimp fighter will have 36 str in mod 9, if a monk gets that 34 you're suggesting, he is just severly gimping himself in every other area. Sure, most of the current noobs who are rolling all dex monks are even more gimped, but going out all str is also a bad idea on a stat heavy class. You must be really desperate to try to justify and point sticks on such a small and fair difference.

I did my own monk attack rate test some time ago, dont remember the exact number but 92 sounds about right.


Of course I do
Read a bit below to get your response here
Then i will add monk PrEs.... oh right.. we dont know them yet...
Not in the forseeable future, given turbine's development cycle it will take at least another 6 months after ddou launch to get anything done about them. We are discussing what they can do now, or what we know. Not what they could do.
Monk stances are a mod 8 ability... on par with weapon spec/mastery that the fighter gets.
Kensai is a mod 9 ability, which should be comared to lvl 20 monk base damage, ring effects (whatever these might be), and eventually mod 10 monk PrEs...
Correct, so should I just get rid of that 3d6 die I used as well then?
(hint: fighters will be amongs the top dps kings in mod 9 fyi)


Yes, w/o further ado:

Using fire stance... because its easier, evens out strength, and guarantees enough ki to use ki strikes.
Now you are contradicting yourself on the wind stance argument
-Using 1 ki strikes every other attack
-3d6 each of fire 3, air 3, or water 3 = 10.5 damage average / every other attack = 5.25 damage per hit.
-monk 34 str (16 base + 6item +4level +3 tome +3stance +2 rage)
That's just stupid and you know that too
-fighter 36 str (18 base + 6 item + 4level +3tome +3enhancments +2 rage)
-using +5 greaterbane handwraps (no need for GS)
Transmuting is your friend

		monk	ft main	ft off
weapon		18	14	14
str		12	13	6
pa		5	5	5
bard		8	8	8
spec			6	6

base total	43	46	39

sa		8	8	8

acid		0	3.5	3.5
holy		0	7	7
slicing		0	2.5	2.5
ki strikes	5.25	0	0
greaterbane	10.5	0	0

procs total	15.75	13	13

bursts		0	11	11
bloodstone	12	12	12

crits total	12	23	23

blast		0	14	14

normal		66.75	67	60
crit		121.75	136	122
blast		121.75	150	136

66.75 * 17 hits = 1134.75
121.75 * 2 crits = 243.5
1134.75+243.5 / 20 attack = 68.9125 average damage

68.9125 * 92 attack rate * 2 hands / 60 seconds = 211

and 211 > 204 in my book

btw... on this monk comparison +5 greaterbane handwraps do the exact same dps as min 2 would.
Should we ever get min2, hopefully will also give a small bonus to base die just like every other gs weapon
i never jump to blind conclusions... i just use proper calculations.


bastard swords are just a good comparison vs monks because of the base damage.
sure khopesh would do slightly more dps... other martial weapons that dont require a feat would do less..
Bastard sword is a favorable comparision vs monks since it's a gimp melee, if you wanna argue that a monk is comparable to a gimp melee then I concur.


Fire stance is not "low dps" its just not as high as wind stance. (which i consider one of the flaws of monks since wind is both higher dps, higher dc ki, and higher ac)
Again you contradict yourself stating that 2 extra damage is worth more than 10% more attacks

i suggest you try it though.... my monk can fill his ki bar complelty using fire stance and a weighted 5% weapon just on 4 devils in part 4 shroud.... giving him a full ki bar to dump on harry in wind stance.
Been there, done that, still waste of time when you can usually fill fast enough as already discussed (5 hits 1 strike)


ok... so maybe str based monks with 15 starting dex may not be able to qualify for wind 4 for a while.... elf and halfing will, or any dex based monk. That extra 2.5% attack rate isnt that big a deal.
Agreed, 2,5% won't save them from being worst dps

I dont know how common they might be in mod 9... all i can say is they will be easier to get by the time your monk hits level 20 and needs one.

mts

[Enochroot]

Snarky saracastic comment, but I will talk about this one, even improved evasion builds get tagged with elemental AOE's, Okay, I dont have Tortoise which is like 30 extra HP, if in a raid or a quest, I get hit 3 or more spells in a situation that does elemental damage that extra 8 just paid for itself.

Now case in point two, every get killed by burning blood, acid rain or acid fog, or added all three? I can take a burning blood and not worry having to equip restance items to take it. Yes buffs cover it, but again your buffs never been dispelled?

This is exactly the narrow minded and unexperienced view of monks that exists ("Wow Energy Resitance"), which is such a naive approach.

So a ranger has to pause for a brief moment and cast another protection from energy on himself ... big loss?

And no, I've never been killed by burning blood, acid rain, or acid fog. All of my toons can self-cast resists and it's never even been something I've considered.

Again, I never said monks are weaksauce, I said they're generally weak at STUFF THAT MATTERS.

[Winded]

Enjoy playing your monk than play it and play it well.. Does anything else matter.

I really enjoy my Monk and say what ya will , Ive seen what he can do and is far from any definition of weaksauce.

He solos the vale with no heal pots - Zero
He has saved multiple parties on elite - Last man standing
Was last man standing on bad Shroud run and took last 2-5% of Big red by himself

I stand at 32 str in fire stance, 38 with rages
Im at 350 hitpoints wihtout a GFL - Cant fit at moment
have hit 73 AC with no raid gear(raid buffs)
I stun everything
rarely miss Qp on right target(casters)
PA and Human versatility = excellent DPS
No +3 tomes yet on him either, +2's accross the board

Current top damage ( first number only) 107 on a crit- handwraps
Yes, Ill continue to play him and do hop[e they provide some DR passing ability as other have stated.

[QuantumFX]

To sum up my frustrations with the monk class:
- We still don't have a Greater Flurry of Blows feat. At this point I would take a 10 Ki for a 1 minute 10% haste boost that doesn't stack with tempest or Fighter/Rogue boost.
- Special attack boosting Handwraps need to provide bonuses to special attack (Int eh works)
- Lack of weapon choice. We should have, at minimum, the Whirling steel strike feat and enhancements that add other monk proficient weapons to the centering list.
- The inability to bypass certain DRs despite the fact that there could be a feat to bypass the weapon types and a weapon enchantment that could bypass the material DR's
- No abilities that are directly related to being centered. Rangers are all about the favored enemy, Barbarians are all about the rage, Paladins are all about the smite. Monk… they're all about this ki system that has no basis in P&P.

[Djeserit]

I haven't played a monk, but...

Doesn't Strike of the Enduring help you punch through DR?




PS - My experience, most monks are poorly built, played, only good for pulling levers. On top of that, most players who are not monks don't know how to play with one. For example, many rogues don't know what unbalancing strike is. When the monk is trying to pull a mob into an elite spinning blade trap, a lot of rangers will just hit it anyway. Many pick-wielding barbarians don't realize how it will help them if their pet monk stuns the enemy. Then rest your axe on his pointy head. Perfect fit!
There should be some kind of warning, Only play a (with) monk if you are very experienced (also helps very much if you have 32pt. build, and have the right gear/tomes).

[Vivanto]

I haven't played a monk, but...

Doesn't Strike of the Enduring help you punch through DR?

Nope, it only gives you some extra damage on 1 strike every so often.

..

Well, unless by punching through dr you meant just that, but if a monk is suffering from penetrating any dr, even if just the pit fiend's, then they should seriously consider rerolling ^^
Problem isn't punching through it, but the inability to bypass.

[NXPlasmid]

there are basically 3 types of tanks in vod

1. ranger monks with 80 ac twf - unless they have a 10 str, it can be hard for a monk to pull agro off them, possible reason? couple of lightning strikes

2. snb melees with 70+ ac - snb, possibly with CE up. 1 weapon vs 2 weapons. go figure

3. hp melees - thf or twf with PA up, almost impossible to lose agro unless suulo just reappear, or lightning strikes

my fighter has 40 raid buff str, full weapon spec, bloodstone, goggles, haste boost, dual min 2 khopeshes. when raid buffed, my base number is in the 40s, crits can top 150 (before weapon effects). i seldom lose agro when i'm twf. against sally, i may lose agro becoz i'm in snb mode with CE instead of PA. else you can try pull agro off me

I honestly don't think that any of these are "average builds" and yours is certainly not. Your fighter is a highly tuned and equiped with most of the key raid items. I wish any of my toons were as well set up as that. I don't think most players have that level of build and so while I agree that Monks probably won't compare all that well super twinked to super twinked verses other melee classes, the reality is most builds are somewhere in the middle and a resonable monk build isn't going to lag behind by more than 5 or 10% from the general population.

I would also like to say how delighted I am with this thread and the civility of everyone for most part, especially in light of how easiliy things can get out of hand. I think the information here is really useful to anyone building any class. I am definitely learning a lot! Thanks again to everyone!

[Kaboth]

You're great. We KNOW you don't know that, because if he turned around, OTHER people would get cursed too. By saying no one else got cursed you're actually damaging your position. ESPECIALLY because with what your saves should be you should be one of the hardest to curse.

Based on your OWN comment, we can assume you didn't pull aggro onto the group.

Did you EVER think..... quite possibly the others DIED when he turned on them... after that I wont reply to any more comments by you as crude and dull witted.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

there are basically 3 types of tanks in vod

1. ranger monks with 80 ac twf - unless they have a 10 str, it can be hard for a monk to pull agro off them, possible reason? couple of lightning strikes

2. snb melees with 70+ ac - snb, possibly with CE up. 1 weapon vs 2 weapons. go figure

3. hp melees - thf or twf with PA up, almost impossible to lose agro unless suulo just reappear, or lightning strikes

my fighter has 40 raid buff str, full weapon spec, bloodstone, goggles, haste boost, dual min 2 khopeshes. when raid buffed, my base number is in the 40s, crits can top 150 (before weapon effects). i seldom lose agro when i'm twf. against sally, i may lose agro becoz i'm in snb mode with CE instead of PA. else you can try pull agro off me

You're forgetting most self-respecting S&B tanks will have the lorik's set - at least 2 parts if not all 3 parts of it, and thus be getting a lot more hate generation. That makes up for the S&B dps when it comes to holding Sulu's agro.

Garth

[Vivanto]

You're forgetting most self-respecting S&B tanks will have the lorik's set - at least 2 parts if not all 3 parts of it, and thus be getting a lot more hate generation. That makes up for the S&B dps when it comes to holding Sulu's agro.

Garth

A s&b tank with only 2 parts of the set is just gimping himself. Now all 3 items, that's a different story, still 1 less ac but at that point a worthy tradeoff.

btw it's levik's.