Need Bard help...

[Bashfyl]

Ok, I have serious alt-itis, so now I am making a bard.

Bard has always been my favorite DDO class, but somehow I always end up gimping myself... I read somewhere on the forums that trying to be a true jack-of-all-trades won't really work, which may be why my bards end up gimped.

So I want to build a bard that can crowd-control very well, as well as do the usually bardic buffing, and (if possible) have some respectable healing skills.

(Drow Bard)

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 20

The order for my feat choices is where I need most help... I want both SF: enchantment and both Spell Penetration feats, as well as extend... but I think mental toughness or SF: UMD would be helpful at low to mid levels, then swap out later...

Also, I've heard that it's tough to CC at current endgame for bards... Is this true? Is there any way to effectively use enchantment spells for CC in high level dungeons?

Any input would be appreciated.

[Demoyn]

I hate to have to be the one to tell you this, but if you wan't to go so far into CC as to spend 4 feats on it you'd be better off as a wizard. A bard only gets 6 levels of spells, so even with heighten their DCs will always be two less than a wizard.

Now you can be a very affective crowd controller, but that will never be a great primary focus. With the way you're trying to go you'd be better served to focus on healing and not putting a lot of feats into crowd control.

[Dragonhyde]

To me the most potent CC a bard has is their songs......the undead and contruct songs can be very potent in the right dungeons. As for crowd control I tend to take only mass suggestion on my bards in charm, but I am more of a buffing/healer type. Best of luck on your build!

[Freeman]

A bard only gets 6 levels of spells, so even with heighten their DCs will always be two less than a wizard.

That's a common misconception, but it is only true in one particular circumstance: If a bard and a wizard/sorc have the exact same stats, feats, equipment, and buffs up at the same time, then the wizard/sorc will have two higher DC. Other than that, stats, feat selection, equipment, and Spellsinger's song can alter the differences to the point were a bard can have a higher DC than a wizard or sorc. Can a wizard/sorc that specializes in enchantment get a higher DC than a bard? Yes. But from my experience, very few of them are going to spend feats to do it, allowing a bard's DCs to remain competitive, at least when it comes to Enchantment spells.

Now, when it comes to the issue of Will-based CC in some current end-game content, ALL casters have issues in some quests, due to either extremely high saves, SR, or just blanket immunities. That's a problem with CC in general, not bards in particular, even though they are hit much harder by it. In other quests, such as Monastery and Kobold, I've found my bard's CC still works fine. Also, you don't need any feats to be a reasonably competent healer. Now, if you are looking to replace a cleric in a raid, then you might need them, but I usually just have to pick up the slack from bad clerics instead of replacing them entirely

[Demoyn]

That's a common misconception, but it is only true in one particular circumstance: If a bard and a wizard/sorc have the exact same stats, feats, equipment, and buffs up at the same time, then the wizard/sorc will have two higher DC. Other than that, stats, feat selection, equipment, and Spellsinger's song can alter the differences to the point were a bard can have a higher DC than a wizard or sorc. Can a wizard/sorc that specializes in enchantment get a higher DC than a bard? Yes. But from my experience, very few of them are going to spend feats to do it, allowing a bard's DCs to remain competitive, at least when it comes to Enchantment spells.

I'm not misconceived in the slightest. If he wants this exact build then he'll do better as a wizard, which you just said yourself, if you check that paragraph.

If he were to make this build this as a wizard he'd have the exact same stats, feats, equipment, and buffs up (minus spellsong which will mean the wizard only gets 1 DC better). The difference is that the wizard will have MUCH more utility and quite a few more spell points to boot (not to mention the extra bonus feats).

[Freeman]

I'm not misconceived in the slightest. If he wants this exact build then he'll do better as a wizard, which you just said yourself, if you check that paragraph.

If he were to make this build this as a wizard he'd have the exact same stats, feats, equipment, and buffs up (minus spellsong which will mean the wizard only gets 1 DC better). The difference is that the wizard will have MUCH more utility and quite a few more spell points to boot (not to mention the extra bonus feats).

So, you're telling me a wizard will have respectable healing skills, which was part of what he wanted in the build? Also, at what level do wizards get Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, and Inspire Competence. Since he wanted the usual bard-buffing abilities, I assume you managed to fit those into this wizard? I said that a wizard or sorc that focused on crowd control could be better at it than a bard. That statement has nothing to do with whether or not a wizard would be better for the OP, since it clearly would not be able to heal and buff nearly as well as a bard. By your logic, I shouldn't have rolled a melee Warchanter because barbarians are better at melee. You only focused on the CC aspect and made this statement:

A bard only gets 6 levels of spells, so even with heighten their DCs will always be two less than a wizard.

That statement is false, yet I see it repeated often on these boards. If you are going to try to assert that this statement is true, then I ask you to show me how a Warforged Wizard will ALWAYS have 2 DC more that a Drow bard. A wizard or sorc will usually be better at CC, but that is because they have CC options that bards do not, such as Web, fogs, etc. It isn't because of the DC of the spells. You can describe the difference in DCs under a specific set of assumptions and circumstances, but you can't make a blanket generalization based on one variable when the spell DC is based off of four different variables.(Stats, feats, equipment, and spell level)

To go back to the OP's question, a bard has a rougher time doing CC at current end-game, but it is because of the content and silly immunities that the Devs have added, not because of DC issues. However, there are still areas where it is useful(Fascinate is very nice on quick Monastery or Kobold runs). If you have good buffs and healing on top of that, you should be fine.

[Demoyn]

So, you're telling me a wizard will have respectable healing skills, which was part of what he wanted in the build?

Welcome to UMD, which a bard will be reliant upon himself if he isn't specced to heal.

Also, at what level do wizards get Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, and Inspire Competence.

I don't even see where this is relevent, since any group that's not sleepwalking through a quest is going to take a warchanter anyway. This means that the character will either have to fill a cleric spot or a wizard spot. He can only fill the cleric spot if he takes my advice, and he'll be subpar in the wizard spot as stated above.

Since he wanted the usual bard-buffing abilities, I assume you managed to fit those into this wizard? I said that a wizard or sorc that focused on crowd control could be better at it than a bard. That statement has nothing to do with whether or not a wizard would be better for the OP, since it clearly would not be able to heal and buff nearly as well as a bard. By your logic, I shouldn't have rolled a melee Warchanter because barbarians are better at melee. You only focused on the CC aspect and made this statement:

Warchanters fill the bard spot in the party, not the DPS spot. Apples and oranges.

Wizards buff BETTER than bards in their role (blur, GH, etc), and a bard that's not specced for healing heals just about the same as a wizard.... with heal scrolls.

That statement is false, yet I see it repeated often on these boards. If you are going to try to assert that this statement is true...

Would it help if I apologized for not realizing that spellsong adds 1 to the DC? I was wrong and I'm sorry, wizards are only 5% better than CC bards, not 10% better!

...then I ask you to show me how a Warforged Wizard will ALWAYS have 2 DC more that a Drow bard.

This is just a downright stupid statement. We're not talking about a comparison of warforged and drow, we're comparing bards and wizards. A warforged bard will ALWAYS be worse than a warforged wizard. A drow bard will ALWAYS be worse than a drow wizard.

The only time this won't be the case is if a race were to be added that has a bonus to charisma and a negative to intelligence. Again, though, we're not comparing races so it would STILL be a stupid statement.

A wizard or sorc will usually be better at CC, but that is because they have CC options that bards do not, such as Web, fogs, etc. It isn't because of the DC of the spells. You can describe the difference in DCs under a specific set of assumptions and circumstances, but you can't make a blanket generalization based on one variable when the spell DC is based off of four different variables.(Stats, feats, equipment, and spell level)

You're absolutely right. I could have made a long, drawn out post of the HUNDREDS of reasons that wizards would do better than bards for this build, but instead I went with a quick response that apparently ruffled some panties. Next time I'll take the two hours to write a thesis paper on the subject so I don't have people all over the world joining hands in a communal nerd rage.

To go back to the OP's question, a bard has a rougher time doing CC at current end-game, but it is because of the content and silly immunities that the Devs have added, not because of DC issues. However, there are still areas where it is useful(Fascinate is very nice on quick Monastery or Kobold runs). If you have good buffs and healing on top of that, you should be fine.

So after all of that, you still come to the same conclusion that I do. I'm sure glad we spent all that time for nothing.

[Freeman]

Welcome to UMD, which a bard will be reliant upon himself if he isn't specced to heal.

So a wizard with UMD can heal as well as a bard? Okay...

I don't even see where this is relevent, since any group that's not sleepwalking through a quest is going to take a warchanter anyway. This means that the character will either have to fill a cleric spot or a wizard spot. He can only fill the cleric spot if he takes my advice, and he'll be subpar in the wizard spot as stated above.

You care if a bard is a Warchanter or not in your groups? Maybe if you are running Shroud or VOD on Elite, you might want to be picky. If you need a Warchanter to pick up the DPS slack on a normal quest, then there are some serious DPS issues to begin with.

Warchanters fill the bard spot in the party, not the DPS spot. Apples and oranges.

Actually, my Warchanter fills both roles, with some backup healing thrown in as well. If your Warchanter can't dish out a significant amount of DPS, that's a matter of how he was built, not his class symbol.

Wizards buff BETTER than bards in their role (blur, GH, etc), and a bard that's not specced for healing heals just about the same as a wizard.... with heal scrolls.

Wizards buff better because of Blur and GH? Does a wizard's Blur give 40% concealment instead of a bard's 20%? Does a wizard's GH give +6 to skills and saves? Also, how does a wizard add +7 attack and +6(or +8 for a Warchanter) damage to the party? I must have missed those spells. So, what can a wizard buff with that's BETTER than a bard can give? About the only thing I can think of is better Stoneskin than you can get from wands. Or are you talking about resists and protections, which are also available on wands?(Yes, even at the max levels of their usefulnes)

Would it help if I apologized for not realizing that spellsong adds 1 to the DC? I was wrong and I'm sorry, wizards are only 5% better than CC bards, not 10% better!

Again, you are assuming that everything else will always be equal. You can only make this statement under a very specific set of circumstances. Change any of the variables that I mentioned above, and this statement is invalid.

This is just a downright stupid statement. We're not talking about a comparison of warforged and drow, we're comparing bards and wizards. A warforged bard will ALWAYS be worse than a warforged wizard. A drow bard will ALWAYS be worse than a drow wizard.

Funny, I thought what you said was:

A bard only gets 6 levels of spells, so even with heighten their DCs will always be two less than a wizard.

So I say, not if the races are different. Your response: Ok, everything but if the races are the same, it is true. So I could counter with "What if the bard has spell focus feats and the wizard doesn't for that school?" Wouldn't the DC's be the same then? Then we could get into stats. After that equipment? How many exceptions will you make before you realize that the DCs are far too variable to make blanket statements. You can only make that statement under specific sets of assumptions, not in a general context.

You're absolutely right. I could have made a long, drawn out post of the HUNDREDS of reasons that wizards would do better than bards for this build, but instead I went with a quick response that apparently ruffled some panties. Next time I'll take the two hours to write a thesis paper on the subject so I don't have people all over the world joining hands in a communal nerd rage.

Unfortunately, you've made statements with nothing to back them up. You claimed that wizards are better at buffing than bards, but only listed bard spells to support this. You said wizards could heal just as well with UMD and Heal scrolls, which is a fairly odd claim. I just don't see how you can answer someone's post about a build that can CC, have decent healing(There's a middle ground between no healing and completely specced for it), and BARD-BUFFING abilities with "Roll a wizard instead because they are better at crowd control".

So after all of that, you still come to the same conclusion that I do. I'm sure glad we spent all that time for nothing.

Not when it comes to the OP, unfortunately. Just a general statement that doesn't really have any bearing on what he was asking.

[Demoyn]

So a wizard with UMD can heal as well as a bard?

Yes. If your bard doesn't have all the ehancements and some metamagic then the wizard heals just as well. If he DOES have that stuff, then he's a heal-specced bard with a minor in CC.... kinda like I suggested he do.

You care if a bard is a Warchanter or not in your groups? Maybe if you are running Shroud or VOD on Elite, you might want to be picky. If you need a Warchanter to pick up the DPS slack on a normal quest, then there are some serious DPS issues to begin with.

I'll allow other bards in my group (unless they're virtuoso, then I just boot them), but if I have a choice to make I'm always taking the warchanter.

Actually, my Warchanter fills both roles, with some backup healing thrown in as well. If your Warchanter can't dish out a significant amount of DPS, that's a matter of how he was built, not his class symbol.

If a warchanter can't deal DPS they're going on my ignore list. It's not a problem I have to worry about often.

Wizards buff better because of Blur and GH? Does a wizard's Blur give 40% concealment instead of a bard's 20%? Does a wizard's GH give +6 to skills and saves? Also, how does a wizard add +7 attack and +6(or +8 for a Warchanter) damage to the party? I must have missed those spells. So, what can a wizard buff with that's BETTER than a bard can give? About the only thing I can think of is better Stoneskin than you can get from wands. Or are you talking about resists and protections, which are also available on wands?(Yes, even at the max levels of their usefulnes)

The abbreviation "etc." must do loops around your head. The only bard buff outside of songs that a wizard can't give is FoM. On the other hand, there are quite a few buffs a wizard can give that a bard can't.

Again, you are assuming that everything else will always be equal. You can only make this statement under a very specific set of circumstances. Change any of the variables that I mentioned above, and this statement is invalid.

We're not talking about two already built characters here, we're talking about BUILD DESIGN. Yes, everything WILL be the same, because IT HASN'T BEEN BUILT YET.

So I say, not if the races are different. Your response: Ok, everything but if the races are the same, it is true. So I could counter with "What if the bard has spell focus feats and the wizard doesn't for that school?" Wouldn't the DC's be the same then? Then we could get into stats. After that equipment? How many exceptions will you make before you realize that the DCs are far too variable to make blanket statements. You can only make that statement under specific sets of assumptions, not in a general context.

BUILD DESIGN.... BUILD DESIGN... BUILD DESIGN... How mother ****ing complicated is that **** to ****ing understand?

Unfortunately, you've made statements with nothing to back them up. You claimed that wizards are better at buffing than bards, but only listed bard spells to support this.

You know... when you're in a quest and you treat people like stupid kids and explain everything to them then you're an ***hole. When you're in a quest and don't explain everything to people like they're ******** children then "omg you didn't say that!!!". I suppose this is kind of the same thing.

You said wizards could heal just as well with UMD and Heal scrolls, which is a fairly odd claim. I just don't see how you can answer someone's post about a build that can CC, have decent healing(There's a middle ground between no healing and completely specced for it), and BARD-BUFFING abilities with "Roll a wizard instead because they are better at crowd control".

The guy wants to do crowd control. He doesn't want to be good at it, he wants to focus on it. He needs to roll a wizard... period.

Not when it comes to the OP, unfortunately. Just a general statement that doesn't really have any bearing on what he was asking.

Just because I didn't give him the answer he was hoping for doesn't mean it has no bearing. I answered his question with the most appropriate response that exists.

[tc12]

I'll avoid the whole Wiz vs Bard thing.

Maybe the OP can clarify if he's looking for the best build for crowd control in general or if it's really a bard they're looking for and want it to be the best it can be.

Bashfyl- Until recently I was guilded with Freeman and can tell you his bards are very good. I've never thought "we should have picked up a warchanter...", instead always like "it's so nice when you have a great bard in the party!"

Also, my only capped bard is a warchanter that's multiclassed as many are, and can tell you when there's a pure bard in the party they're normally the primary bard. I'll toss DR songs mainly, and inpsire courage only if it turns out mine does more damage. But let them do greatness as it'll last longer than mine. They can do GH and such, I'll focus on keeping up rage on those that want it and displacement on the 1 or 2 main melees. Recognizing the value of a pure bard now I'm rolling a human pure Bard Spellsinger (currently only 2nd). They aren't backseat players to Warchanters at all.

Anyway, listen to Freeman if you really want a bard not a wizard. I don't think you'll be disappointed if you build one as he recommends, 'chanter or 'singer, pure or multi.

TC

[Freeman]

Yeah, this has gotten out of hand, so I'll leave any more debate out of this thread. OP, there's nothing wrong with your build, although I personally prefer humans over Drow. The extra feat is very nice, and the Human Adaptability can nullify the Drow's Charisma bonus.(The extra +1 doesn't help if it brings you to an odd stat) The second level is also nice for evening out any other odd stats, such as if you pick up a +3 Con tome While the drow/human debate is more a matter of preference, I just wanted to make sure you'd considered that option as well.

[Bashfyl]

When I first saw the post about playing a wiz instead of bard I just went and deleted the bard... SO many times I played a character for a while and found myself utterly gimped and useless due to poor selections, and didn't feel like having fun up til level 8 and then being disappointed.

So I rolled a sorc, more generalist than my initial plan of CC-focused.... Though I might roll a bard up eventually once I actually gain some first-hand experience with endgame content...