Cleric Healing Guide

[Demoyn]

Wait wait wait ... you're using 20% devotion item?!?!!? And you're even discussing efficiency? And trying to tell me my 2% is behind your -30?%!?!?!??

You chose that character to harp on. We could just as easily use my other battle cleric that has a triple positive greataxe with superior devotion VII on it.

The quicken in my calcs is because there's other people, that are not you, that consider it invaluable. And I want those people, who are possibly reading this thread, to understand what it means. I'm not applying it to you.

But I want those people reading this thread to understand that quicken ISN'T invaluable. In fact, I play without it every day, and I can't remember the last time I didn't complete a quest (actually I do... it was last night in Threnal but it was because of a UI bug and not healing).

The reason people now think it's invaluable is because of a handful of posts like this that claimed it so, and that belief caught on like wildfire among people that were either new or incapable of critical thinking. The end result of that senseless garbage is a bunch of new clerics talking about how they can't afford to play a cleric because they waste all their mana on quicken during simple quests. My goal is to rid this game of such thinking.

The number YOU should look at, since you don't like quicken, is the -5%. Except, since you have no potency VII item, you ACTUALLY should look at -55% on a MCSW ...

And finally, you should do the math, because there's variables the first page didn't cover, like, say, having a regular devotion VI item.

I forgot throughout the last two pages that I also have Lorrik's necklace, so I'll mention it now (effectively have the same as full enhancement line).

I'll be honest with you... I don't know where the hell you're getting all these numbers. Here's how I see it and you can correct me where I'm wrong:

Mass cure serious wounds with empower healing [(3d8+15)*190%]/46 = 1.18 healing per mana.

Mass cure serious wounds with maximized healing ([(3d8*200%)+15]*140%)/65 = .9 healing per mana.

Now this time with a greater devotion VIII item to appease the masses:

Mass cure serious wounds with empower healing [(3d8+15)*240%]/46 = 1.49 healing per mana.

Mass cure serious wounds with maximized healing ([(3d8*200%)+15]*190%)/65 = 1.23 healing per mana.

Now I know the maximized number probably isn't exact because I don't know the formula to only apply 200% to the variable average and still keep the linear percentile, but if it isn't accurate then the error is in favor of maximize. These numbers still show that in all instances (albeit without quicken) the empower heal feat is more efficient.

EDIT: Read second grade math for dummies... fixed math.

[Enochroot]

I forgot throughout the last two pages that I also have Lorrik's necklace, so I'll mention it now (effectively have the same as full enhancement line).

I'll be honest with you... I don't know where the hell you're getting all these numbers. Here's how I see it and you can correct me where I'm wrong:

Mass cure serious wounds with empower healing [(3d8+15)*190%]/46 = 1.05 healing per mana.

Mass cure serious wounds with maximized healing ([(3d8*200%)+15]*140%)/65 = .8healing per mana.

Now this time with a greater devotion VIII item to appease the masses:

Mass cure serious wounds with empower healing [(3d8+15)*240%]/46 = 1.33 healing per mana.

Mass cure serious wounds with maximized healing ([(3d8*200%)+15]*190%)/65 = 1.05 healing per mana.

Now I know the maximized number probably isn't exact because I don't know the formula to only apply 200% to the variable average and still keep the linear percentile, but if it isn't accurate then the error is in favor of maximize. These numbers still show that in all instances (albeit without quicken) the empower heal feat is more efficient.

k, I actually don't know if it should be +15 or +16, as the spells act according to the handbook, but the description does not. Feel free to flame there. Ie. MCLW is 1d8+caster level, but max is not +5, it's either +15 or +25. Any, you used 25.42? I'm not sure how you arrived there for average base?

Regardless - doesn't matter much to percentages at bottom:

				hp	sp	efficiency
MCSW (3d8+16=28)		29.5		
quicken 			29.5	50	0.59
w/o quicken			29.5	40	0.7375
			
imp. Dev / lm IV (x1.8)			
quicken				53.1	50	1.062
w/o				53.1	40	1.3275
			
imp emp healing III (x1.5)	minus enhances	2	
quicken				79.65	58	1.373275862
w/o quicken (-10sp)		79.65	48	1.659375
w necklace (-2 sp)		79.65	56	1.422321429
w necklace (-2 sp) w/o quicken	79.65	46	1.731521739
			
maximize (x2.0) +25 sp			
quicken +10 sp			106.2	75	1.416
w/o quicken			106.2	65	1.633846154
w/gloves (-4 sp)		106.2	71	1.495774648
w/o quicken w/ gloves (-14 sp)	106.2	61	1.740983607
			
percent efficiency emp heal over max			
quicken					96.98275862
w/o quicken				101.5625
raid gear				95.08928571
raid gear w/o quicken			99.45652174
			
sp/sec healing			
maximize	17.7		
emp. Healing	13.275		

[Demoyn]

k, I actually don't know if it should be +15 or +16, as the spells act according to the handbook, but the description does not.

Now that I didn't know. Just one more reason to despise Turbine's transition from PnP I suppose.

Feel free to flame there. Ie. MCLW is 1d8+caster level, but max is not +5, it's either +15 or +25. Any, you used 25.42? I'm not sure how you arrived there for average base?

My figures were for MCSW, not MCLW. The average was 25.5 (I rounded the final number which is why it appears to be 25.42) based on 3d8 [(3*8+3)/2+15]. Of course this number would be 28.5 and not 25.5, but I did tell you that it was too early in the morning for math!

Regardless - doesn't matter much to percentages at bottom:

percent efficiency emp heal over max
quicken 96.98275862
w/o quicken 101.5625
raid gear 95.08928571
raid gear w/o quicken 99.45652174

sp/sec healing
maximize 17.7
emp. Healing 13.275

This is a much more compelling argument (and I like that it's based around the efficiency number instead of a percent without a base number explanation like the OP).

EDIT - The -14 raid gear w/o quicken mana adjustment seems to be a typo.

[Enochroot]

Now that I didn't know. Just one more reason to despise Turbine's transition from PnP I suppose.



My figures were for MCSW, not MCLW. The average was 25.5 (I rounded the final number which is why it appears to be 25.42) based on 3d8 [(3*8+3)/2+15]. Of course this number would be 28.5 and not 25.5, but I did tell you that it was too early in the morning for math!



This is a much more compelling argument (and I like that it's based around the efficiency number instead of a percent without a base number explanation like the OP).

EDIT - The -14 raid gear w/o quicken mana adjustment seems to be a typo.

-10 for quicken , -4 for gloves o' glacier?

gotcha, for MCMW I went with 25. But it doesn't really matter in terms of percentages.

fwiw, same table for MCMW:

MCMW (2d8+16=25)			
quicken 	25	45	0.555555556
w/o quicken	25	35	0.714285714
			
sup. Dev / lm IV (x1.9)			
quicken	47.5	45	1.055555556
w/o	47.5	35	1.357142857
			
imp emp healing III (x1.5)	minus enhances	2	
quicken	71.25	53	1.344339623
w/o quicken (-10sp)	71.25	43	1.656976744
w necklace (-2 sp)	71.25	51	1.397058824
w necklace (-2 sp) w/o quicken	71.25	41	1.737804878
			
maximize (x2.0) +25 sp			
quicken +10 sp	95	70	1.357142857
w/o quicken	95	60	1.583333333
w/gloves (-4 sp)	95	66	1.439393939
w/o quicken w/ gloves (-14 sp)	95	56	1.696428571
			
percent efficiency emp heal over max			
quicken			99.05660377
w/o quicken			104.6511628
raid gear			97.05882353
raid gear w/o quicken			102.4390244
			
hp/sec healing			
maximize	19		
emp. Healing	14.25		

Maybe I'll format it, but not right now =P

[Demoyn]

				hp	sp	efficiency
MCSW (3d8+16=28)		29.5		
quicken 			29.5	50	0.59
w/o quicken			29.5	40	0.7375
			
imp. Dev / lm IV (x1.8)			
quicken				53.1	50	1.062
w/o				53.1	40	1.3275
			
imp emp healing III (x1.5)	minus enhances	2	
quicken				79.65	58	1.373275862
w/o quicken (-10sp)		79.65	48	1.659375
w necklace (-2 sp)		79.65	56	1.422321429
w necklace (-2 sp) w/o quicken	79.65	46	1.731521739
			
maximize (x2.0) +25 sp			
quicken +10 sp			106.2	75	1.416
w/o quicken			106.2	65	1.633846154
w/gloves (-4 sp)		106.2	71	1.495774648
w/o quicken w/ gloves (-14 sp)	106.2	61	1.740983607
			
percent efficiency emp heal over max			
quicken					96.98275862
w/o quicken				101.5625
raid gear				95.08928571
raid gear w/o quicken			99.45652174
			
sp/sec healing			
maximize	17.7		
emp. Healing	13.275		

I'm not getting quite the same math, though. I'm showing that MCSW affected by improved devotion, life magic IV, and empowered healing heals for 67.85 (you show 79.65), and that maximized it would heal for 77.4 (you show 106.2).

This would change the final numbers to:
percent efficiency emp heal over max
quicken 113.3554
w/o quicken 118.7082795
raid gear 111.1422573
raid gear w/o quicken 116.24677

[Enochroot]

I'm not getting quite the same math, though. I'm showing that MCSW affected by improved devotion, life magic IV, and empowered healing heals for 67.85 (you show 79.65), and that maximized it would heal for 77.4 (you show 106.2).

This would change the final numbers to:
percent efficiency emp heal over max
quicken 113.3554
w/o quicken 118.7082795
raid gear 111.1422573
raid gear w/o quicken 116.24677

I believe it to be base*(potency+lm)*metamagics

[Demoyn]

I believe it to be base*(potency+lm)*metamagics

I'm pretty sure it's base*(potency+lm+meta).

Now as for an end to this conversation entirely, I'll have you know that I planned to go to bed almost 8 hours ago. I will now exercise my right to sleep, and this thread has prevented me from doing that enough already!

[Enochroot]

I'm pretty sure it's base*(potency+lm+meta).

Now as for an end to this conversation entirely, I'll have you know that I planned to go to bed almost 8 hours ago. I will now exercise my right to sleep, and this thread has prevented me from doing that enough already!

Losing sleep over a thread is crazy! We'll work out formula later then

[Caine52184]

I hear you loud and clear. My capped cleric is not broke but not wealthy. I spend and use my consumables in a miserly fashion.

If you "expect" my cleric to go purchase and use consumables on you as a "routine" forget it. But I do believe in carrying them for emergencies, preventing party wipes, and certain portions of quests, like the shroud or VoD.

Agreed. My cleric usually carries about 100 major mana's and 200 heal scrolls...she RARELY has to restock but I like to be safe(for not so experienced groups)...and I cant tell u the times where I had to give the 2nd healer scrolls or pots because they blew through their resources. YES..I gave the other cleric some stuff because I i have 7 capped toons with plenty of plat so the completion was more important to me then the plat (and i chose to pug so i went in expecting this to happen). Im able to play a lot more then a casual player if I choose to.. so blowing through plat..isnt a big deal to me. In shroud 4 & 5 the only meta I use is empower healing and I do just fine.

I can definitely see how a "casual playing cleric" can run low on plat..especially if you're a pugger.

[Enochroot]

Regarding formula for amount healed:

Maximized test (I don't carry emp. heal =P)

Range of heals			(enhance+item)*meta	enhance*item*meta
				*1.9*2.0		*2.9
max mCMW (16+16)	32	121.6			92.8
min mCMW (2+16)		18	68.4			52.2
			
Test heals		72,98,87,117,102,91,102,102,117,121,110,80,114,91
Average			100.2		

With a very, very small test sample, you can see the range of heals falls under the formula for (enhancement+item)*meta-magic. Just based on the fact the values simply fall outside the range of the other calculation.

Feel free to test yourself, but I am satisfied after this small sample.

[Sanjinn]

Very nice guide, thanks for putting it together.

[Valezra]

And finally, you should do the math, because there's variables the first page didn't cover, like, say, having a regular devotion VI item.

I'm not siding either way on the issues you two are discussing but regular Devotion is covered. If your talking Regular Devotion VI then the chart would only apply up to Cure Moderate Wounds Mass.

As a side to the discussion on efficiency... someone with all the empower healing enhancements and Lorrik's necklace will continue to be more efficient than Maximize (even including Gloves of the Glacier). A Dry (no gloves, no enhancements) Maximize only begins to be more efficient than a Dry (no necklace, no enhcancements) Empower Healing when the base spell cost exceeds 50 SP, or level 10 spells and beyond which will never see the light of day in DDO.

Val

[Valezra]

Revised the guide Preface to clarify the intent of the guide regarding scrolls and potions and to state that the goal in efficient healing is to reduce consumables to as little as possible. It was always my original intent... I am sorry for the confusion.

I am rewording the rest of the guide now to clear up any further misunderstandings.

Val

[Valezra]

Thread reworded. I am now adding examples of how to use the efficiency charts at the end since some folks are discussing and counter-discussing things that are already answered by the charts. I though they would be self explainatory but I will give some examples to teach you how to use them. In Progress...

Val

[Valezra]

Provided examples on using the chart. Also, when I reworded I added the clarification that "topping off" in the guide is only when mobs or the boss is still alive. Their usually is no need to top off the party between encounters as this is a waste of scrolls and SP.

Val

[Demoyn]

Provided examples on using the chart. Also, when I reworded I added the clarification that "topping off" in the guide is only when mobs or the boss is still alive. Their usually is no need to top off the party between encounters as this is a waste of scrolls and SP.

Val

I haven't re-read the OP yet, but this fine tuning will probably make me really like this guide.

[Enochroot]

I'm not siding either way on the issues you two are discussing but regular Devotion is covered. If your talking Regular Devotion VI then the chart would only apply up to Cure Moderate Wounds Mass.

As a side to the discussion on efficiency... someone with all the empower healing enhancements and Lorrik's necklace will continue to be more efficient than Maximize (even including Gloves of the Glacier). A Dry (no gloves, no enhancements) Maximize only begins to be more efficient than a Dry (no necklace, no enhcancements) Empower Healing when the base spell cost exceeds 50 SP, or level 10 spells and beyond which will never see the light of day in DDO.

Val

Yeah, that's true. And you did cover devotion, my bad. But there was stuff that came up, such as not having all the enhancements. But it doesn't matter. I'm pretty sure anyone with a brain reading this can come to their own conclusion on what they want to do.

And who cares about *dry* =P

[Cowdenicus]

so where does a greater commanded group come into play for the purposes of healing effects, or a sound bursted group....???

[Enochroot]

so where does a greater commanded group come into play for the purposes of healing effects, or a sound bursted group....???

Well, when comparing healing efficiencies, it doesn't. Since it's not healing.

That's like debating whether a porsche or ferrari will get you somewhere faster, and you say, what about a 747?

Are you gonna greater command aeritrikos now? Maybe soundburst him for a few sonic damage? Perhaps lie him flat with a cometfall?

Get real. You're not a badass for discovering cleric CC. We all know.

[Aranticus]

so where does a greater commanded group come into play for the purposes of healing effects, or a sound bursted group....???

qft. the best cleric is the cleric that keeps the party alive without the need to heal