Cleric Healing Guide

[Enochroot]

I'll stop the second someone points out that I am (and is correct).

I have.

So you admit that the improved empower II (the enhancement I stop at) is more efficient than maximize? Well ****... maybe I'll be incorrect next time.

I didn't just admit it, I've shown the math on exactly how much it is or isn't, I see no reasoning behing your logic besides "8 for 50% feels better than 21 for 100%"

Even if you DO have quicken, are you really going to plan your feats to save mana in TWO quests instead of the hundred others that you run? If you turn quicken on in any quest other than Kobold or VoD you're just a horribly unskilled healer. Can't be incorrect here as this is an opinion, but from a logical standpoint it's still the side to choose.

No, I don't run with quicken all the time, you are correct there. But in the times when mana efficiency actual MATTERS (the quests you mention, perhaps?) - I do run with it. Great, you have more mana efficiency in braindead easy quests, great? I tend to dump mana like the plague in those quests for no good reason other than to see pretty pixels on my screen. Meh? My gut goes opposite yours.

Ok, let's do the math. It's 5% less efficient to use empowered healing in two quests. It's 2% more efficient to use empowered healing in ~100 quests. That puts me at about 190% more efficient than you. Maybe I'll be incorrect next time.

As stated above, they're the only two quests that matter. Have fun in WW efficiency.

Even a well built battle cleric shouldn't be having aggro often. That's pretty much a wasted slot if it requires you to get hit and you're not getting hit. I suppose it would be decent enough for Harry, but I'm not about to farm a raid necklace for one fight. Obviously this is also an opinion, so maybe I'll be wrong next time.

If you don't have aggro often, you're not doing as much damage as you seem to think. If you're not regenning mana, you're MUCH less efficient than I am, in ALL quests.

I absolutely obliterate things in general content with my melee capabilities (though not quite as much as a pure melee character, thus the lack of aggro). I'd completely agree with you on a caster cleric, but why would you spend 5 feats (power attack, improved critical, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and greater two weapon fighting) to get supreme melee capabilities when you could spend one (maximize) and completely obliterate general content? Oh right... you wouldn't. Maybe I'll be incorrect next time.

How can you obliterate things in general content and not pull aggro?

Well ****... there's nothing else to answer to and I'm still not incorrect. How about we just compromise then? Instead of saying empowered healing is ALWAYS more efficient than maximize (which technically I haven't said to that affect), I'll just say that battle clerics who choose empowered healing instead of maximize are ALWAYS smarter than those that don't (unless they pay $15 a month to only run two quests over and over)?

There is nothing else to say. People can draw their own conclusions, I just want the CORRECT information out there for them to decide (IE. it's a very close race between the two on efficiency, and maximize comes with benefits ^^)


We haven't even discussed when you need to toss out a heal (unquickened, apparently) and have to untoggle emp. healing not to waste sp ... Or you just have such good micro you can OBLITERATE melee, untoggle/toggle metas, AND cast VERY slowly? (and while doing all that, somehow keep your DPS up to remain useful?)

[Demoyn]

So the Maximize Battle Cleric gets a 2 for 1 with Maximize and doesn't overpower his Heal spell and the Empower Healing Battle Cleric produces nearly the lowest DPS in the game and gained less than 5% more efficiency over Maximize. I would say you are indeed incorrect.

If it were that simple, why would anyone ever play a battle cleric?

The fact is that it's not that simple. It's more like the difference between a sprinter and a marathon runner.

Sure, a maximized blade barrier (if the party utilizes it properly, which is a whole other issue) can deal more damage in some situations than a cleric's melee capabilities. If you're always using blade barriers, though, you're not going to have enough mana to complete most quests. You never run out of melee damage, on the other hand.

Now at this point I'm going to have to end the conversation because of lack of proof. I doubt we'll ever have the sufficient data to show the difference between sprinters and marathon runners and which is mathematically superior over the course of the game.

This is what I do know, though. It's been my experience that I RARELY have to use scrolls or potions, even with my lower supply of mana. It's been my experience that BATTLE clerics who continuously use quicken and maximize often complain about the amount of consumables they use. It's also been my experience that those same people who complain about resource costs (ie - the people who follow similar advice as this thread contains) end quests with over half their mana bar unused after consuming 20 or 30 heal scrolls for the last fight. As such, it's my experience that my OPINION has more merit (and I'll freely admit that without the mathematical evidence it is nothing more than an opinion).

[Valezra]

We can discuss battle clerics and Demoyns non-GTWF 22 strength Obliterating DPS build Illisheel all day but I would like to bring the discussion back on topic. Any advice or tips on the OP is still very welcome. I will probably at some point add a preface to the OP briefly discussing efficiency vs material costs.

Val

[Aranticus]

Percentages are definately useful. When your healing in DDO you can't possible know every single players HP amount all the time. The benchmarks I gave are accurate based on the average player out there. When we all heal in raids do we not watch healthbars and make a decision as to when to cast? That decision is based on a subconcious determination we all make going into the raid based on our observance of how effective our heals are on the party. Often I find the percentages I gave are good averages.

yes we dun know how much hp a player has and that is why all clerics have to learn!. my heal spell does 266 and if a player goes from 50% to almost full, this guy would probably have 600 hp. learning to judge how much health a toon has is a must have skill for clerics who want to play their toon at the highest level

Telling people they are "doing it wrong" just because they don't do it like you is not sound argument. 80% of Clerics out there burn through there SP and then dump the responsibility on the other Cleric in the raid. It was just the other night the other cleric says over voice chat, "Out of mana, on scrolls now guys." - Why would he run out of SP? A good cleric starts with scrolls and manages his SP consumption if he doesn't have the SP and efficiency to last the whole raid. Again, these "don't use scrolls" arguments are completely moot in raids like Shroud Hard/Elite for example. You can either learn to incorporate scrolls into the curing chain as I'm teaching or you can chug mana pots and just throw away tons of money.

Yes, you can heal through Shroud normal without ANY scrolls once you get good and are properly geared and specced. I don't want to teach people to just heal through Shroud Normal... I want clerics who can heal through anything. Put money aside for a moment, there is no argument that a scroll which costs 0 SP is infinately more efficient than a spell which does cost SP. If you want to have amazing efficiency you can learn to heal like the guide... if you want to "get the job done" dont use scrolls and keep a lot of Mnemonic enhancers on you.

Val

A good cleric is not defined on performing their duties "sufficient to get the job done." For superior healing abilities getting the job done isn't enough. I pride myself on ending Part 5 in the Shroud with over 1200 SP ans solo healing it. Sure I could have backed off some Scrolls and made up for it with Spells but that reserve is what prevents anyone from dieing. When the **** hits the fan you will be spamming Casts like crazy and burning through SP faster than you'd imagine... I want that SP pool in reserve to do that

i laugh at your effort. in part 5 there are 2 pools where a cleric can run in to get sp and be near enough to heal the party. there is no need for anyone to use scrolls to heal the group. a cleric can effectively have approx twice the amount of sp ie abt 3000 - 3600 sp for healing the group

what you are writing in this guide is not efficiency, what you are telling people is "you can heal through anything with sufficient plat"

[Cowdenicus]

Then your clerics aren't battle clerics, they're caster clerics. As such you have no horse in this race... and no opinion on the matter.

LMAO....

No My clerics are CLERICS. They heal, melee and cast. funny how that works.

[Enochroot]

If it were that simple, why would anyone ever play a battle cleric?

The fact is that it's not that simple. It's more like the difference between a sprinter and a marathon runner.

Sure, a maximized blade barrier (if the party utilizes it properly, which is a whole other issue) can deal more damage in some situations than a cleric's melee capabilities. If you're always using blade barriers, though, you're not going to have enough mana to complete most quests. You never run out of melee damage, on the other hand.

Now at this point I'm going to have to end the conversation because of lack of proof. I doubt we'll ever have the sufficient data to show the difference between sprinters and marathon runners and which is mathematically superior over the course of the game.

This is what I do know, though. It's been my experience that I RARELY have to use scrolls or potions, even with my lower supply of mana. It's been my experience that BATTLE clerics who continuously use quicken and maximize often complain about the amount of consumables they use. It's also been my experience that those same people who complain about resource costs (ie - the people who follow similar advice as this thread contains) end quests with over half their mana bar unused after consuming 20 or 30 heal scrolls for the last fight. As such, it's my experience that my OPINION has more merit (and I'll freely admit that without the mathematical evidence it is nothing more than an opinion).

I solo nearly every quest in the game with BB and don't run out of sp, what are you talking about?

In party play, you're correct, in my opinion. I built my battle cleric specifically because offensive caster clerics are simply too powerful for the average pug, and you end up either dragging them around in a super boring way or they waste your sp by not playing to your strengths.

You seem to not use math a lot, but discuss efficiency quite a bit. Seems like they would go together.

Know what my experience is, since we're shooting from the gut? The only wipes I ever see (as this game is easy as pie) - are when clerics don't use quicken and get interrupted at a critical moment, such as too many devils/orthons aggroed somewhere, or exploding bats, or lag in shroud 4, etc.

All your examples are simply bad players.

[Enochroot]

LMAO....

No My clerics are CLERICS. They heal, melee and cast. funny how that works.

Cowden, you're contributing nothing. We've all been through that argument before. We know.

[Valezra]

i laugh at your effort. in part 5 there are 2 pools where a cleric can run in to get sp and be near enough to heal the party. there is no need for anyone to use scrolls to heal the group. a cleric can effectively have approx twice the amount of sp ie abt 3000 - 3600 sp for healing the group

I'm glad I got a chuckle. When I stated I "pride myself on ending with 1200 SP" I didn't clarify. I have only done this twice where you use as many scrolls as possible and the pool to see how many SP you have left. 1200 has been my high and that was on a group getting hit quite frequently. From the pool I can easily solo heal part 5 on normal with zero scrolls. I apologize for not making that clear.

what you are writing in this guide is not efficiency, what you are telling people is "you can heal through anything with sufficient plat"

Actually it's just the opposite. People think that the scrolls in their inventory are for when SP run out. They have already failed... no amount of Scrolls can keep a party up when your SP is completely gone. Worst is when people don't carry any scrolls, heal inefficiently, and then chug pots... I have seen these people chug upwards of 8 to 12 Major pots when all they had to do was learn to heal more efficiently.

Gaging just how often they need to mix scrolls into the casting routine will come over time as the Cleric gets more experienced. The goal is to reduce this to zero. In content where every drip of SP counts and your SP pool is not enough to meet the needs of your party you can either learn to abuse scrolls and improve efficiency or waste money on Major pots.

Val

[Enochroot]

We can discuss battle clerics and Demoyns non-GTWF 22 strength Obliterating DPS build Illisheel all day but I would like to bring the discussion back on topic. Any advice or tips on the OP is still very welcome. I will probably at some point add a preface to the OP briefly discussing efficiency vs material costs.

Val

I can't believe that's the build I've been trying to convince. He doesn't even carry the enhancements he claimed. He's half-assed maxing wis on a character that can't possibly use the DC's. He went halfling ... for a whopping 15 reflex save ... for 14 AP ...

Wow.

[Demoyn]

I didn't just admit it, I've shown the math on exactly how much it is or isn't, I see no reasoning behing your logic besides "8 for 50% feels better than 21 for 100%"

The math on this agrees with me. 8 for 50% becomes 16 for 100%. That is indeed lower than 21 for 100%.

No, I don't run with quicken all the time, you are correct there. But in the times when mana efficiency actual MATTERS (the quests you mention, perhaps?) - I do run with it. Great, you have more mana efficiency in braindead easy quests, great? I tend to dump mana like the plague in those quests for no good reason other than to see pretty pixels on my screen. Meh? My gut goes opposite yours.

I feel like they're all braindead easy quests, so I guess that's where we differ.

As stated above, they're the only two quests that matter. Have fun in WW efficiency.

Now this I can't agree with at all. First of all, nobody really runs Kobold, so it doesn't matter regardless. VoD on the other hand would qualify, but even in that quest you only turn quicken on for one small part of the quest (fire bats).

I did a VoD today, and while it's not scientific proof due to averages I'll use it as an example anyway. The VoD took 19 minutes, and the fire bats were 1 minute of that (give or take). We'll take out 4 minutes of that for non-combat times.

I have 1200 mana, and in an even split throughout the quest that means I'd use ~80 mana per minute. The mana you save in efficiency of quickened maximize would account for 4 extra mana. The 2% efficiency throughout the other 14 minutes would account for 22.4 mana.

Now again I understand that this is not scientifically infallible. It is, though, a rough example of why I believe that empower healing is always better for a character (not for a fight, but for a character).

If you don't have aggro often, you're not doing as much damage as you seem to think. If you're not regenning mana, you're MUCH less efficient than I am, in ALL quests.

How can you obliterate things in general content and not pull aggro?

I seem to think that I do slightly under ~400 DPS on my build (according to Gfunk's thread). I seem to think that the top DPS build does ~600 DPS. Even the lower end "top DPS" builds do ~450 DPS (plus they don't lose DPS because they have to heal). It only takes one good DPS build to maintain aggro over me, but I still do more than enough damage to obliterate general content.

There is nothing else to say. People can draw their own conclusions, I just want the CORRECT information out there for them to decide (IE. it's a very close race between the two on efficiency, and maximize comes with benefits ^^)

I guess that depends on your definition of very close. I agree that maximize has more utility (always have), but I don't feel that, over the course of the game, maximize is close to empower in efficiency.

We haven't even discussed when you need to toss out a heal (unquickened, apparently) and have to untoggle emp. healing not to waste sp ... Or you just have such good micro you can OBLITERATE melee, untoggle/toggle metas, AND cast VERY slowly? (and while doing all that, somehow keep your DPS up to remain useful?)

I don't toggle empower. With empowered healing on my heals do about 330 hit points worth of healing (non-crit, but never rely on a crit). The average hit point total of the people I typically run with is probably over 400. I suppose the reason I don't waste sp where others do is because of my healing strategy.

Let's take the Harry fight, for instance. If there are three people or more that are below 75% I throw a mass cure moderate. If there are three people are more that are around 50% I throw a mass cure serious.

If there are only two people injured I watch them closely and cast a heal on the next one to get hit (I'll use a heal scroll if the other gets hit before my timer is up from the first). This way I can prevent overhealing without using many scrolls. What happens more often than not, though, is that someone with less than 300 hit points goes below 75% in that time and I'm back to throwing mass cures until the one remaining low guy goes low enough to heal.

I wouldn't trust this healing tactic to newer players, but it works very well for me. On the rare occasions that I'm unable to keep both low players healed I just use a triple positive item to rez with no resource loss and keep going.

[Enochroot]

The math on this agrees with me. 8 for 50% becomes 16 for 100%. That is indeed lower than 21 for 100%.

So for a wild example - let's say base spell cost was 1000. Are you still correct?

1008 = 150%, 1021 = 200% ... which will you take?

At what point does it change?

I feel like they're all braindead easy quests, so I guess that's where we differ.

If you played a more powerful character, perhaps you would agree.

Now this I can't agree with at all. First of all, nobody really runs Kobold, so it doesn't matter regardless. VoD on the other hand would qualify, but even in that quest you only turn quicken on for one small part of the quest (fire bats).

I did a VoD today, and while it's not scientific proof due to averages I'll use it as an example anyway. The VoD took 19 minutes, and the fire bats were 1 minute of that (give or take). We'll take out 4 minutes of that for non-combat times.

I have 1200 mana, and in an even split throughout the quest that means I'd use ~80 mana per minute. The mana you save in efficiency of quickened maximize would account for 4 extra mana. The 2% efficiency throughout the other 14 minutes would account for 22.4 mana.

Now again I understand that this is not scientifically infallible. It is, though, a rough example of why I believe that empower healing is always better for a character (not for a fight, but for a character).

If you're not using quicken in VoD, on a battlecleric, which I can see yours is very low AC, and you're beating up devils/orthons, ANY interruption is a huge waste of sp. If you're not in the mix, what's the point of having a battlecleric? And the only times you need to use sp is possibly orthons (shouldn't have to) , devils (possibly, again), and bats.

I seem to think that I do slightly under ~400 DPS on my build (according to Gfunk's thread). I seem to think that the top DPS build does ~600 DPS. Even the lower end "top DPS" builds do ~450 DPS (plus they don't lose DPS because they have to heal). It only takes one good DPS build to maintain aggro over me, but I still do more than enough damage to obliterate general content.

I believe your word obliterate is different than mine.

I guess that depends on your definition of very close. I agree that maximize has more utility (always have), but I don't feel that, over the course of the game, maximize is close to empower in efficiency.

Very close efficiency wise. The numbers prove it, they're all between +/- 5%

I don't toggle empower. With empowered healing on my heals do about 330 hit points worth of healing (non-crit, but never rely on a crit). The average hit point total of the people I typically run with is probably over 400. I suppose the reason I don't waste sp where others do is because of my healing strategy.

Let's take the Harry fight, for instance. If there are three people or more that are below 75% I throw a mass cure moderate. If there are three people are more that are around 50% I throw a mass cure serious.

If there are only two people injured I watch them closely and cast a heal on the next one to get hit (I'll use a heal scroll if the other gets hit before my timer is up from the first). This way I can prevent overhealing without using many scrolls. What happens more often than not, though, is that someone with less than 300 hit points goes below 75% in that time and I'm back to throwing mass cures until the one remaining low guy goes low enough to heal.

I wouldn't trust this healing tactic to newer players, but it works very well for me. On the rare occasions that I'm unable to keep both low players healed I just use a triple positive item to rez with no resource loss and keep going.

I agree, sounds reasonable, however, if you're using mass CSW, you're less efficient on emp. healing than maximize.

Surprised that's only 330 with emp. heal. Hm.

So, now, your build has been posted, and you don't run with the enhancements you claimed? Or has your build changed?

[Demoyn]

I can't believe that's the build I've been trying to convince. He doesn't even carry the enhancements he claimed.

That's because the build you see isn't the final build. Once I got dual minIIs I dropped improved critical and took empower healing, then switched my enhancements around a bit.

He's half-assed maxing wis on a character that can't possibly use the DC's.

Why can't I use the DCs? I still cast destruction, meteor shower, and occasionally blade barrier. Though truth be known the real reason for the higher wisdom was the armor class and the spell points. I also don't see how it's "half-assed maxing wis on a character" to have 1 lower DC than a full-blown caster cleric.

He went halfling ... for a whopping 15 reflex save ... for 14 AP ...

No, I went halfling for a whopping +3 to hit, +7 damage per attack (after factoring in strength modifier), +2 AC, +5 reflex save, +2 fortitude save, and +2 will save for 30 AP. It's probably also worth noting that after equipment and buffs that "whopping 15 reflex save" can get around 30.

Wow.

Please feel free to show me a single battle cleric that's a better overall build. This build has the third highest DPS of any battle cleric I've seen (and even then only 20 less DPS). Couple that with my insta-save evasion (along with insta-save fort and will), ~65 AC, 1200 spell points, ability to take all future prestige enhancements, and over 350 hit points and you'd be hard-pressed to find a better overall build, much less a better battle cleric build. The only one I would rate above it would be the exploiter.

[spyderwolf]

good post.

[Demoyn]

So for a wild example - let's say base spell cost was 1000. Are you still correct?

Show me a spell in the game that has a base spell cost of 1000 and I'll concede.

If you played a more powerful character, perhaps you would agree.

I play one of the most powerful characters ever designed, thank you very much.

If you're not using quicken in VoD, on a battlecleric, which I can see yours is very low AC....

10 base
8 dex
11 wis
4 icy raiments
1 alchemical
4 insight
3 chattering ring
1 monk
1 size
6 bracers
5 protection
---
54 unbuffed

5 barkskin
1 haste
2 recitation
4 inspire heroics
5 paladin aura
---
71 AC

Yeah... I guess that's pretty low....

and you're beating up devils/orthons, ANY interruption is a huge waste of sp.

I'm beating them up, not tanking them. Even so, they rarely hit a 71 AC.

If you're not in the mix, what's the point of having a battlecleric?

This I can agree with!

And the only times you need to use sp is possibly orthons (shouldn't have to) , devils (possibly, again), and bats.

So.... kinda the whole quest, right?

I believe your word obliterate is different than mine.

Possibly. I weigh my opinions based upon expectations. Dealing 66% of the damage expected from THE TOP DPS build in the game (75% was wrong, redid math) on a character expected to provide 0% - 5% of that same DPS to me is obliterating. Your mileage may vary I suppose.

Very close efficiency wise. The numbers prove it, they're all between +/- 5%

You started your post with a comment about variation and then refuse to see it in regards to efficiency. The numbers prove that a single spell with a moderate base value is what some consider to be close to the same efficiency. If you spread that number out over an entire quest it could end up being hundreds of saved mana. Divide that by an entire mana pool and the efficiency of mana (as opposed to a single spell) can be well over 10% or even 15% efficiency increase.

I agree, sounds reasonable, however, if you're using mass CSW, you're less efficient on emp. healing than maximize.

It's too early in the morning and there's too many variables for me to work this out right now, but I'm willing to bet that empower healing is even better in this case because you spend less mana overall but maximize doesn't double the +15 for level.

Surprised that's only 330 with emp. heal. Hm.

I don't have a superior potency (or devotion) item because the one weakness of my build is the amount of gear it takes to make it that powerful. If they made better devotion items for a glove spot I'd be all over it. That's also the same reason I only get a +6 armor bonus instead of a +8. I had to use Tharne's Bracers to stack armor and dex onto one item to make everything fit (though with the goggle set bonus it makes it even better).

So, now, your build has been posted, and you don't run with the enhancements you claimed? Or has your build changed?

I addressed that in the earlier post. Of course I also have a cleric 15/ barbarian 1 with which to provide examples if that build's not good enough for you.

[Enochroot]

That's because the build you see isn't the final build. Once I got dual minIIs I dropped improved critical and took empower healing, then switched my enhancements around a bit.

Fair enough. In my last post I indicated maybe you didn't update your build. Seems like you would've taken emp. healing earlier if you're advocating build effencies however ...

Why can't I use the DCs? I still cast destruction, meteor shower, and occasionally blade barrier. Though truth be known the real reason for the higher wisdom was the armor class and the spell points. I also don't see how it's "half-assed maxing wis on a character" to have 1 lower DC than a full-blown caster cleric.

Because your spell pen is what, +14? And don't you think caster clerics will be carrying spell focus, napkins, etc? (Maybe your build is carrying napkin too?)

No, I went halfling for a whopping +3 to hit, +7 damage per attack (after factoring in strength modifier), +2 AC, +5 reflex save, +2 fortitude save, and +2 will save for 30 AP. It's probably also worth noting that after equipment and buffs that "whopping 15 reflex save" can get around 30.

Please feel free to show me a single battle cleric that's a better overall build. This build has the third highest DPS of any battle cleric I've seen (and even then only 20 less DPS). Couple that with my insta-save evasion (along with insta-save fort and will), ~65 AC, 1200 spell points, ability to take all future prestige enhancements, and over 350 hit points and you'd be hard-pressed to find a better overall build, much less a better battle cleric build. The only one I would rate above it would be the exploiter.

In my opinion you'd be much better served forgoing wisdom all-together, as it's only helping you do easy things. "Making easy things easier" mod7,8, and looking to be 9 mobs seem highly resistant to DC/Spell pen, and not-maxxing this seems useless. The fact that you indicated you could destruct with this build tells me you're not using destruct in end game content.

Therefore, even sticking with halflings (which I hate their shortness) - I'd go dex or str based instead of wis-based. (Dex for AC, str for DPS) Aren't YOU the one who said "why use BB if you're a melee obliterator" - well, then focus on it.

I barely know what you mean by "insta-save" - since all saves are instant. "auto-save" might be a better word. Dex builds and dwarves can easily have better reflex saves.

Not sure how you know you can take all future PrEs? What if there's a charisma DM pre-req?

[Aranticus]

I'm glad I got a chuckle. When I stated I "pride myself on ending with 1200 SP" I didn't clarify. I have only done this twice where you use as many scrolls as possible and the pool to see how many SP you have left. 1200 has been my high and that was on a group getting hit quite frequently. From the pool I can easily solo heal part 5 on normal with zero scrolls. I apologize for not making that clear.



Actually it's just the opposite. People think that the scrolls in their inventory are for when SP run out. They have already failed... no amount of Scrolls can keep a party up when your SP is completely gone. Worst is when people don't carry any scrolls, heal inefficiently, and then chug pots... I have seen these people chug upwards of 8 to 12 Major pots when all they had to do was learn to heal more efficiently.

Gaging just how often they need to mix scrolls into the casting routine will come over time as the Cleric gets more experienced. The goal is to reduce this to zero. In content where every drip of SP counts and your SP pool is not enough to meet the needs of your party you can either learn to abuse scrolls and improve efficiency or waste money on Major pots.

Val

seems like a miscom, i apologise if i offended you. this post i can fully agree with you. you might want to put in the OP that new clerics should augment their sp with scrolls if the need arise rather than the impression i got which is about spamming consumables

when i train the new clerics in my guild, i generally ask them to start first with scrolls in unfamiliar quests of the ratio 1 scroll to 3-5 spells. this will stretch their sp pool by 20-30%. when they become more familiar with the quest, they should decrease the use of scrolls gradually, ie 1 -4 > 1-6 > 1-8, etc. this way they can learn to eliminate scroll use

[Enochroot]

Show me a spell in the game that has a base spell cost of 1000 and I'll concede.

So you understand base casting cost has something to do with it? But you still think "+50% for 8 and +100% for 21" is the final answer?

K, now that we understand 1000, let's play the game with 100? Then try with 50? Now try with say ... 35?

I play one of the most powerful characters ever designed, thank you very much.

Then the content should be trivial.

10 base
8 dex
11 wis
4 icy raiments
1 alchemical
4 insight
3 chattering ring
1 monk
1 size
6 bracers
5 protection
---
54 unbuffed

5 barkskin
1 haste
2 recitation
4 inspire heroics
5 paladin aura
---
71 AC

Yeah... I guess that's pretty low....

They give you bard songs all the time? Wow, run with a lot of virtuoso's or just low AC builds so no one else needs songs? You count on pally auras? Without these you're around 62, and devils in VoD are still hitting you.

But you're right, these builds have decent AC, but I wouldn't depend on it not to get interrupted ... personally ...

Possibly. I weigh my opinions based upon expectations. Dealing 66% of the damage expected from THE TOP DPS build in the game (75% was wrong, redid math) on a character expected to provide 0% - 5% of that same DPS to me is obliterating. Your mileage may vary I suppose.

Gotcha, you're obliterating it more than you're not obliterating it. But quests are still challenging somehow?

You started your post with a comment about variation and then refuse to see it in regards to efficiency. The numbers prove that a single spell with a moderate base value is what some consider to be close to the same efficiency. If you spread that number out over an entire quest it could end up being hundreds of saved mana. Divide that by an entire mana pool and the efficiency of mana (as opposed to a single spell) can be well over 10% or even 15% efficiency increase.

The size of the mana pool means nothing to the efficiency of said mana. I'm trying to image which quest you're saving hundreds of mana from a 2% gap.

It's too early in the morning and there's too many variables for me to work this out right now, but I'm willing to bet that empower healing is even better in this case because you spend less mana overall but maximize doesn't double the +15 for level.

Backwards. Emp heal is 5% less efficient without quicken and 9% with quicken for MCSW, and level two emp. heal enhancements.

I don't have a superior potency (or devotion) item because the one weakness of my build is the amount of gear it takes to make it that powerful. If they made better devotion items for a glove spot I'd be all over it. That's also the same reason I only get a +6 armor bonus instead of a +8. I had to use Tharne's Bracers to stack armor and dex onto one item to make everything fit (though with the goggle set bonus it makes it even better).

So, you're so worried about efficiency of healing, but aren't even set up to heal efficiently? Is your ITWF off hand dps enough to make up for 10% less healing? (or more, where is your potency item?) Since DPS doesn't even matter in the quest we seem to be talking about, VoD, I'm very confused by this.

[Demoyn]

Fair enough. In my last post I indicated maybe you didn't update your build. Seems like you would've taken emp. healing earlier if you're advocating build effencies however ...

It would seem that way, but not quite. At earlier levels I didn't have the equipment issues I have now because I couldn't get my AC high enough to make a huge difference. Because of this I had better devotion items. It also costs a significantly smaller amount of money to buy wands of cure serious than heal scrolls, so I was more willing to wand whip in the middle levels.

Because your spell pen is what, +14? And don't you think caster clerics will be carrying spell focus, napkins, etc? (Maybe your build is carrying napkin too?)

That's easily solved by not casting on things with spell penetration. I melee these things. Really the only things I destruct are air elementals, beholders, and rust monsters. I'll also throw a destruct at unreachable things if I have extra mana; such as the warforged on the ledges of the twilight forge or the ogres on the stairs in dust. Yeah, I fail sometimes, but this is only a secondary attack for annoying things.

In my opinion you'd be much better served forgoing wisdom all-together, as it's only helping you do easy things. "Making easy things easier" mod7,8, and looking to be 9 mobs seem highly resistant to DC/Spell pen, and not-maxxing this seems useless.

Therefore, even sticking with halflings (which I hate their shortness) - I'd go dex or str based instead of wis-based. (Dex for AC, str for DPS) Aren't YOU the one who said "why use BB if you're a melee obliterator" - well, then focus on it.

Dexterity and wisdom both add to my AC. Dexterity also gives me better reflex save. Wisdom also gives me more mana, higher will saves, and higher DCs. Wisdom wins.

If I could have started with 2 higher strength and 2 lower wisdom I MIGHT have done it, but the strength costs more than the wisdom at those numbers.

I barely know what you mean by "insta-save" - since all saves are instant. "auto-save" might be a better word. Dex builds and dwarves can easily have better reflex saves.

Ok... auto-save it is. If the only thing I cared about on my character was reflex save I'd have gone dex. Again, a cleric with an adequate amount of mana is better than a cleric with 1 or 2 more on their reflex save.

Dwarves can never have better reflex saves than a halfing with the same build concept. Dwarves get +2 against spells for free and another +3 with enhancements. This works only against spells.

On the other hand, halflings get +2 dex (+1 reflex), +1 to all saves (+1 reflex), and the same enhancement bonuses. If you spend the same amount of enhancement points then you have the SAME reflex as a dwarf, but yours also works against traps where his doesn't.

Not sure how you know you can take all future PrEs? What if there's a charisma DM pre-req?

Well ok, you got me. I have the only KNOWN prerequisite for any theoretical cleric prestige class (18 levels of cleric). I'm just playing the odds here, which is all anyone can do at this point in regards to cleric PrEs.

[Demoyn]

So you understand base casting cost has something to do with it? But you still think "+50% for 8 and +100% for 21" is the final answer?

K, now that we understand 1000, let's play the game with 100? Then try with 50? Now try with say ... 35?

Why do I have to do the math? The math's already been done on a nice, neat chart on page one!

Then the content should be trivial.

It pretty much is, to me. This guide wasn't about me, though, it was about new clerics learning how to play efficiently (we've kinda forgotten that in our bickering).

They give you bard songs all the time? Wow, run with a lot of virtuoso's or just low AC builds so no one else needs songs? You count on pally auras? Without these you're around 62, and devils in VoD are still hitting you.

Yeah, my wife (one of the two guild bards) has this thing with giving me bard songs every time I ask.

I don't count on pally auras, actually. You'll notice a few posts above where I listed my AC as "~65". When I'm in VoD, though, I'm constantly within range of a paladin.

But you're right, these builds have decent AC, but I wouldn't depend on it not to get interrupted ... personally ...

First they have to get through AC, then they have to break my concentration. I do occasionally lose concentration, but not in any fight that's vital enough to cause a party wipe (if we're in a fight that bad I back out of combat).

Gotcha, you're obliterating it more than you're not obliterating it. But quests are still challenging somehow?

No, the content's not really all that challenging anymore. If it were challenging to my guild and my build, I'd feel REALLY bad for first-time characters on 28 point builds. My enjoyment really comes from conquering new content before anyone else, so I build my characters to be able to conquer the unknown (which is why I've spent so much time on the boards the last six months.... the game's not much fun for me right now).

The size of the mana pool means nothing to the efficiency of said mana.

Oh but it does. If you save 32 mana from your quickened maximizes (theoretically your max savings based on your total mana for this example) and you need a quick heal your efficiency really didn't matter much.

I'm trying to image which quest you're saving hundreds of mana from a 2% gap.

Just for point of debate how about I throw Shroud part 4 out there?

Backwards. Emp heal is 5% less efficient without quicken and 9% with quicken for MCSW, and level two emp. heal enhancements.

Why do you insist on adding quicken to everything you say? I've already told you that only people with no gaming skills rely on quicken to begin with!

On my quicken-packing cleric I'll turn it on if I'm zerging through a quest and gather a sizeable following to throw a quick bladebarrier. I'll also turn it on if I'm the third cleric in Shroud and I'm spot-healing from melee (not because I need it, but because it increases the amount of time I'm swinging away). Outside of those examples (which I'm not going for efficiency in), I can't see of a need to worry about quickened maximized healing (because it's just not needed).

So, you're so worried about efficiency of healing, but aren't even set up to heal efficiently? Is your ITWF off hand dps enough to make up for 10% less healing? (or more, where is your potency item?) Since DPS doesn't even matter in the quest we seem to be talking about, VoD, I'm very confused by this.

DPS always matters. The faster you deal damage, the less time enemies have to produce damage that needs to be healed. So yes, my DPS is enough to reduce incoming damage by 10% (even in VoD). My devotion item (I don't cast offensive damage spells if you'll recall) is on my hands. Just the regular old reaver devotion gloves (though again, this isn't about my character being inefficient... I don't have problems running out of mana in quests).

[Enochroot]

Why do I have to do the math? The math's already been done on a nice, neat chart on page one!

Just for point of debate how about I throw Shroud part 4 out there?

Why do you insist on adding quicken to everything you say? I've already told you that only people with no gaming skills rely on quicken to begin with!

On my quicken-packing cleric I'll turn it on if I'm zerging through a quest and gather a sizeable following to throw a quick bladebarrier. I'll also turn it on if I'm the third cleric in Shroud and I'm spot-healing from melee (not because I need it, but because it increases the amount of time I'm swinging away). Outside of those examples (which I'm not going for efficiency in), I can't see of a need to worry about quickened maximized healing (because it's just not needed).


DPS always matters. The faster you deal damage, the less time enemies have to produce damage that needs to be healed. So yes, my DPS is enough to reduce incoming damage by 10% (even in VoD). My devotion item (I don't cast offensive damage spells if you'll recall) is on my hands. Just the regular old reaver devotion gloves (though again, this isn't about my character being inefficient... I don't have problems running out of mana in quests).

Fine on AC, your play, your call. We'll have to disagree about quicken.

Wait wait wait ... you're using 20% devotion item?!?!!? And you're even discussing efficiency? And trying to tell me my 2% is behind your -30?%!?!?!??

The quicken in my calcs is because there's other people, that are not you, that consider it invaluable. And I want those people, who are possibly reading this thread, to understand what it means. I'm not applying it to you.

The number YOU should look at, since you don't like quicken, is the -5%. Except, since you have no potency VII item, you ACTUALLY should look at -55% on a MCSW ...

And finally, you should do the math, because there's variables the first page didn't cover, like, say, having a regular devotion VI item.