TWF Battle Cleric

[Philam]

Is this a viable build? AC in the low 50's raid,crafting and tweeked out.

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Level 16 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(1 Fighter \ 2 Monk \ 13 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 271
Spell Points: 837 
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 13
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         12                    16
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               16                    22
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 16
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               4                    15
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         4                    21
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                  4                     6
Hide                  3                     4
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  5                    13
Listen                4                     6
Move Silently         3                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                  4                     6
Swim                  4                     6
Tumble                4                     5
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Cleric)


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Lightning Reflexes


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Faith I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I

[Perceval]

Its an interesting build, battle clerics can be fun, if you can find anyone to party with you

[Demoyn]

Viable? Eh... I suppose it'd probably do ok. You can make a superior build by not wasting a level on fighter (instead take the khopesh feat). You'd also be better served with empower healing over maximize, since having only 13 levels of cleric will leave you mana strained as is. In the end, though, I'd invite you to groups if you are a good enough player to harness that build properly, but I'd always be worried that you're going to break the bank using mana pots.

[Philam]

Viable? Eh... I suppose it'd probably do ok. You can make a superior build by not wasting a level on fighter (instead take the khopesh feat). You'd also be better served with empower healing over maximize, since having only 13 levels of cleric will leave you mana strained as is. In the end, though, I'd invite you to groups if you are a good enough player to harness that build properly, but I'd always be worried that you're going to break the bank using mana pots.

No need to take Khopesh feat when I get Dwarvin axe and the Dwarvin enhancements.
Maximize is for BB mostly. Again I know the stigma that goes with BC's, but have a great guild so questing shouldn't be a problem.

[Enochroot]

There's already builds out there that have much more thought - you should read those -

Regardlesss - don't listen to whoever said get empower healing over maximize, they're wrong. Unless mass heals in mod9 become useful and we need to emp. heal them, maximize is much more useful.

Drop IC:slashing, pick up quicken, and craft min II axes.

Don't waste a fighter level getting OTWF, get something useful with fighter level. (Maybe IC:slash until you get your minII's ...)

I'd drop wis to 14 since you don't care about casting anyway, and bump con up - your healing will be unaffected. And your focus is melee, right?

[Philam]

There's already builds out there that have much more thought - you should read those -

Regardlesss - don't listen to whoever said get empower healing over maximize, they're wrong. Unless mass heals in mod9 become useful and we need to emp. heal them, maximize is much more useful.

Drop IC:slashing, pick up quicken, and craft min II axes.

Don't waste a fighter level getting OTWF, get something useful with fighter level. (Maybe IC:slash until you get your minII's ...)

I'd drop wis to 14 since you don't care about casting anyway, and bump con up - your healing will be unaffected. And your focus is melee, right?

The fighter level is so I can get Dwarvin axes use. Cleric and monk do not get it or I would have to use a feat. Agree on dropping the wisdom a touch and bumping con up.

[Enochroot]

The fighter level is so I can get Dwarvin axes use. Cleric and monk do not get it or I would have to use a feat. Agree on dropping the wisdom a touch and bumping con up.

I didn't say don't do it, I just said don't waste the feat on OTWF, in my opinion.

*** Edit *** Although I'm scared these days of making builds that don't have 6/12 or 18 of a class in them ...

[Demoyn]

No need to take Khopesh feat when I get Dwarvin axe and the Dwarvin enhancements.
Maximize is for BB mostly. Again I know the stigma that goes with BC's, but have a great guild so questing shouldn't be a problem.

First of all, khopeshes have higher DPS than dwarven axe (including enhancements). Second, the reason to take the khopesh feat was because you SHOULDN'T get the dwarven axe... being that it's going to cost you an entire level of cleric for a weapon that's not even superior.

There's no reason to gear feats towards bladebarrier on a melee cleric. You have DPS through your melee already, so gear your casting abilities towards healing and buffs (that way you can spend more time in melee and less time throwing spells). In fact, for two weapon fighting to work at its peak you have to stand still. For bladebarrier to work at its peak you have to stay mobile. These two combat modes don't have any synergy. I highly advise against it.

[Demoyn]

Regardlesss - don't listen to whoever said get empower healing over maximize, they're wrong. Unless mass heals in mod9 become useful and we need to emp. heal them, maximize is much more useful.

You're right... I've only been playing battle clerics since pre-release. There's no way I could know what I'm talking about! Mana conservation be damned!!!

[Enochroot]

You're right... I've only been playing battle clerics since pre-release. There's no way I could know what I'm talking about! Mana conservation be damned!!!

Emp. Healing - affects heal spell (generally a waste of mana) does not help BB, takes 12 action points

Maximize - no need to toggle off for heal spell, drastically improves BB


By my calcs assuming raid gear and quicken (gloves,necklace) - efficiency gain of emp. healing over maximize:

MCLW.......3.9%..............w/o quicken ..... 12%
MCMW......1.0%..............w/o quicken ..... 7.6%
MCSW.....-1.4%..............w/o quicken ..... 3.9%

and maximize gets more healing/second.

So if you think 1%-7& on your MCMW is worth 12 action points, an extra feat if you want good BB's, toggling off feat to cast heal, and less healing per second, rock on.

But you've been playing battleclerics since pre-release, enlighten me!

[Demoyn]

Emp. Healing - affects heal spell (generally a waste of mana) does not help BB, takes 12 action points

Maximize - no need to toggle off for heal spell, drastically improves BB


By my calcs assuming raid gear and quicken (gloves,necklace) - efficiency gain of emp. healing over maximize:

MCLW.......3.9%..............w/o quicken ..... 12%
MCMW......1.0%..............w/o quicken ..... 7.6%
MCSW.....-1.4%..............w/o quicken ..... 3.9%

and maximize gets more healing/second.

So if you think 1%-7& on your MCMW is worth 12 action points, an extra feat if you want good BB's, toggling off feat to cast heal, and less healing per second, rock on.

But you've been playing battleclerics since pre-release, enlighten me!

First of all, quicken is for unskilled plebians, so your calculations are already broken. Second, why are you spending 12 action points? That's just dumb. Third, battle clerics don't have the mana to be throwing away 25 spell points every time they cast a spell. Maximize is for casting clerics, not battle clerics.

[Enochroot]

First of all, quicken is for unskilled plebians, so your calculations are already broken. Second, why are you spending 12 action points? That's just dumb. Third, battle clerics don't have the mana to be throwing away 25 spell points every time they cast a spell. Maximize is for casting clerics, not battle clerics.

I posted without quicken, in the post you quoted. You should try reading sometime. Pre-emptive since I knew you'd say something dumb like that.

You're the one that posted about "efficiency of healing". It's even less efficient without spending the AP ...

"throwing away 25 sp" ... when it's more efficient? Hm.

Quicken is for unskilled plebians? Perhaps, I disagree. I would take it just for faster casting, not to mention non-interrupt. Invaluable.

Clearly we will never see eye to eye. Way to address the efficiences or not of max/empower healing. Oh, you didn't.

If you spend 6 AP, then max is 2% less efficient, if you spend 2 AP, max is the same ... but heals for more and BB, why would you not want it again? And that's if you never use quicken ...

[Demoyn]

You're the one that posted about "efficiency of healing". It's even less efficient without spending the AP ... "throwing away 25 sp" ... when it's more efficient? Hm.

Quicken is for unskilled plebians?

Clearly we will never see eye to eye. Way to address the efficiences or not of max/empower healing. Oh, you didn't.

I'm sorry, I didn't think I'd have to point out 10 sp cost per spell (empower healing) >>> 25 sp cost per spell (maximize). I figured that was pretty obvious.

[Enochroot]

I'm sorry, I didn't think I'd have to point out 10 sp cost per spell (empower healing) >>> 25 sp cost per spell (maximize). I figured that was pretty obvious.

Unfortunately for you, it's less efficient. Math is a bastard sometimes, isn't it?

[Demoyn]

Unfortunately for you, it's less efficient.

10 spell points for 50% = 5% healing per mana. 25 spell points for 100% healing = 4% healing per mana.

Math is a bastard sometimes, isn't it?

Only when you're wrong!

[Enochroot]

By your logic emp. healing would ALWAYS be more efficient than maximize then? (5% > 4%) ? It should be irregardless of quicken or not then, right?

[Demoyn]

By your logic emp. healing would ALWAYS be more efficient than maximize then? (5% > 4%) ? It should be irregardless of quicken or not then, right?

Empowered healing IS always more efficient than maximize. The reason people take maximize over empower healing is because they can use it for both healing and offense. A melee-focused battle cleric doesn't need enhanced offensive casting because his offense is based around his melee and his spells are only supplemental. As such he'd prefer the efficiency of empowered healing over the utility of maximize.

Quicken adds the same spell cost no matter what other metamagics are applied. Technically you'd get a little more healing per spell point from a quickened maximized cure than a quickened empowered healing cure, but why bother? Quicken is another metamagic that's used more for bladebarriers than heals.

I put quicken on my 28 point cleric (cleric 15/barbarian 1) and rarely use it. I decided when making my main cleric (cleric 14/monk 2) that I'd never put quicken on another cleric. I can assure you that it's never had an ill effect (unless you count occasionally failing a bladebarrier in shroud part 2 trash stage to be worth a feat slot and 25 extra mana on every spell you cast).

[Enochroot]

Empowered healing IS always more efficient than maximize. The reason people take maximize over empower healing is because they can use it for both healing and offense. A melee-focused battle cleric doesn't need enhanced offensive casting because his offense is based around his melee and his spells are only supplemental. As such he'd prefer the efficiency of empowered healing over the utility of maximize.

Quicken adds the same spell cost no matter what other metamagics are applied. Technically you'd get a little more healing per spell point from a quickened maximized cure than a quickened empowered healing cure, but why bother? Quicken is another metamagic that's used more for bladebarriers than heals.

I put quicken on my 28 point cleric (cleric 15/barbarian 1) and rarely use it. I decided when making my main cleric (cleric 14/monk 2) that I'd never put quicken on another cleric. I can assure you that it's never had an ill effect (unless you count occasionally failing a bladebarrier in shroud part 2 trash stage to be worth a feat slot and 25 extra mana on every spell you cast).

1) Empowered healing is NOT always more efficient than max.

emp. heal MCMW - 25*1.9 (sup. pot + LM IV) * 1.5 (emp. heal) = 71.25 for 45 sp. = 1.58333 hp per sp
maximized MCMW 25*1.9 (sup. pot + LM IV) * 2 (maximized) = 95 for 60 sp = 1.583333 hp per sp

with raid gear this drops to 1.65 (emp healing) to 1.69 (maximized)

with quicken this becomes 1.344 (emp. healing) to 1.43 (maximized)

2) Not using BB *ever* on a battlecleric, just because you're melee focused, seems a little insane to me. It's still a great spell at times.

3) In this paragraph you say "technically you'd get better efficiency from quickened maxed cure than quick/emp. heal" ... which is it? Is it always better, or not?

4) There are times, outside of shrouds which are basically clockwork these days, where a party gets in trouble, and quicken has saved the day countless times, for me. If that's not the case for you, either we play different styles, quests, with different people, or I'm just crazy. But being a melee cleric without quicken is just crazy to me. Any interruption of a big cure is throwing you back huge in efficiency. Especially if someone dies because of it. (You've never had a caster taken down to a sliver suddenly and needed a nice quick heal for them?)