rogues fighting red named raid bosses

[drachine]

speaking specifically of red named or purple named for that matter raid bosses. there are some solutions i would like to find for playing my rogues. keep in mind i am speaking of WORST CASE SCENARIOS. the example i will use if my level 16 rogue vs the Elite Orthon Guards in Vision of Destruction.

there are several issues which come up, first is of course as a rogue you want to gain sneak attack and how to do that when you are the ONLY person fighting the red named. further complicating things is the Damage Reduction of many raid bosses.

what i would like solutions to are what weapons to use and what tactics.

- radiance weapons are nice damage, but they cannot gain you sneak attack because red named bosses cannot be blinded
- deception weapons work well but many bosses have damage reduction and unless you find a holy silver deception weapon (i am fortunate to have found 2) and dual wield them then you are in all likelihood not going to gain sneak attack
- obviously you can't use any stat damage weapons
- diplomacy is useless if you are the only target (say for example everyone else is dead)
- obviously bluff is useless. i only mention it because it is a way to gain sneak attack vs a red named boss. by the time you use this slow skill in all likelihood they will have killed you
- this loves improved feint which is next to useless. originally when i made my rogue i wanted to use this, but after testing it is far from stellar

so my level 16 has a +4 holy silver rapier of deception and a +4 holy silver shortsword and is able to do fairly well vs an orthon, but really you want to wield TWO deception weapons in such a case. should i switch to a 2nd deception weapon even though it will be -15 to damage on each hit?

i want some constructive feedback on this issue.

[Uska]

Good questions I do know recently in vod I had to becareful on my rogue with the boss because with my transmuting of pure good rapiers I was pulling aggro if I tried to help the tank for to long of a stretch at a time. decitption might be your best way to go. but try transmuting of pure good, it should cover the metal and good requirements

[drachine]

yes but my goal, as i'm sure is every rogues goal, is not only to bypass DR, anyone can do that. i want my sneak attacks to go off even if i am the only one fighting them.

for example another rogue i have has a transmuting deception rapier and a transmuting deception dagger which works well for situations like this (until mod 9), but those weapons are rare and soon to become even more rare

[captain1z]

The question is a bit unrealistic only because your scenario calls for a rogue to be fighting a red named raid boss alone. Never gonna happen unless your the last man standing on the brink of a wipe. With others around good rogues do just fine.

But lets say u are the only one fighting this red or purple named boss, due to immunities no rogue could sneak attack a lone opponent such as this without a deception weapon in hand.

Deception has some effect on arretriekeos but does it offer a sneak attack....... Im not sure. Never seen anyone try to solo him with a deception weapon.

As a side note, the red named orthons in VOD can be bluffed & intimidated


What are u really hoping to accomplish, I dont understand the question fully I think?

If its to have your sneak attack work 100% of the time, I just dont think thats gunna happen. Game balance and all.

[Creeper]

I don't think there is an answer to this question. Deception is the only way to go.

Of course the obvious solution is; don't swing at things that have you targeted. Other than that there is no solution.

Aggro is the enemy.

[Impaqt]

speaking specifically of red named or purple named for that matter raid bosses. there are some solutions i would like to find for playing my rogues. keep in mind i am speaking of WORST CASE SCENARIOS. the example i will use if my level 16 rogue vs the Elite Orthon Guards in Vision of Destruction.

OK, if your going to speak about realistic expectations, at least make it a realistic scenario.

If your trying to solo a Orthon in VoD, your doing it wrong. You deserve to lose your sneak attack and dies just because your not even trying to be a team player.

there are several issues which come up, first is of course as a rogue you want to gain sneak attack and how to do that when you are the ONLY person fighting the red named. further complicating things is the Damage Reduction of many raid bosses.

Again, Not a realist scenario, but ok...

what i would like solutions to are what weapons to use and what tactics.

- radiance weapons are nice damage, but they cannot gain you sneak attack because red named bosses cannot be blinded

You answered that one yourself...

- deception weapons work well but many bosses have damage reduction and unless you find a holy silver deception weapon (i am fortunate to have found 2) and dual wield them then you are in all likelihood not going to gain sneak attack

Again, answered yourself...

- obviously you can't use any stat damage weapons

Come EU you can. Red will take 10pts of stat damage as I recall.

- diplomacy is useless if you are the only target (say for example everyone else is dead)

If your going to keep answeringyour own scenarios, whatsthe point of the thread again?

- obviously bluff is useless. i only mention it because it is a way to gain sneak attack vs a red named boss. by the time you use this slow skill in all likelihood they will have killed you

If you made a Squishy rogue, yup, thats a possibility.

- this loves improved feint which is next to useless. originally when i made my rogue i wanted to use this, but after testing it is far from stellar

.

The only solution I can come up for ya is this....

Learn how to play your rogue better and/or build better rogues.

If your going to build a Light HP Riogue that gets killed in the amount of time it takes to Bluff something, you need to play smarter. Soloing Red named mobs is not smart.

Most red names in this game dont have Heavy fort. Even most Purple do not have heavy fort. so there no real reason to try to force sneak attacks if you use your party members efficiently.

take advantage of the Aggro reduction Enhancments line, Use other Aggro reduction weapons and items.

ROgue simply isnt a real Solo Friendly end game class. Especially Squishy dex rogues that rely on Sneak attack to do damage.

[Noctus]

If you try to solo an Orthon in VoD with your squishy Rogue.....


Thats where the (i really, really hope) unrealistic scenario beginns.


If you are soloing red named bosses something in your raid has already gone wrong and it is time to adapt tactics.

rogues fighting red named raid bosses

Coming back torealistic scenariosn you have other dudes helping you with that boss, so to get the most sneak attacks you need aggro reducing mechanics.

1st: Subtle Backstabber enhancements. Take them! All of them!

2nd: Items that reduce aggro generation. There is rad loot that helps with that.

[Jesen]

Worst case scenario, the rogue is trying to kill an Orthon?

RES YOUR PARTY.

I am not kidding, if you can not do this and your group has reached the point of relying on a rogue to tank one of the toughest monsters(Not bosses) in the game they might need to suck it up and recall. Refresh and try again.

Rogue's are a support class, they CAN fight an Orthon. You will need excellent gear and a little luck to effectively fight them. Otherwise you are much better off ressing a tank with intimidate. He can block, intimidate and then you can easily move through the fight. Getting everyone else back up.

If you do not have items/UMD to res it might be better to recall and try again. As something is seriously going wrong if the party is relying on a rogue to solo an Orthon.

If you do want to fight an Orthon though, use a Displacement scroll/clicky, Stoneskin, Haste, bust out your highest raw DPS weapons(Holy for Orthons) and hope that you can Heal scroll yourself quick enough. Displacement is a life saver, buy scrolls even though they are 30s they can be super useful. It is an extremely underrated spell.

Thats my 2c, from a very squishy rogue. In fact I am going to try to solo an Orthon next VOD I do.

[Draccus]

I may upset some rogues here but I'm going to say it anyway.

The answer to the question is that you're not supposed to be able to effectively solo a red-named boss. That's balance; a word that isn't used enough in this game or on these boards.

D&D is designed around class balance and rogues are balanced by the fact the the majority of our damage comes from a special attack that is not 100% useable. In my humble opinion, one of the ways to get the most enjoyment out of playing a rogue is to accept, nay, embrace the fact that you can't be the top damage dealer all the time. In fact, that's part of the allure of the class, to me.

Sure, there are ways to tip the balance. You can build your rogue more like a dwarven fighter and you can put up good numbers against undead or solo red-named bosses. If that's what you need from your rogue then have at it. I think you'll lose some of what makes the rogue so fun to play but I'm certainly in the minority. Most people look at a weakness and immediately think "I've got to find a way to build around it!"

That all being said, if I found myself in a situation with one red-named orthon and my party dead, I would take a COMPLETELY different approach. I'm a rogue, not a paladin, and a toe-to-toe fight with something like that is not on my list of things to do before dying. I would first hit my displacement clickie and then uncanny dodge. I would run around, equip all my UMD gear, and start raising people with scrolls. I'd start with the clerics, raise, and then heal. I'd then start raising someone who could take his aggro (specifically, the intimitank if it's a VoD raid). When the intimitank had aggro and the cleric was up and starting to raise people, I'd then go back to DPSing the orthon.

(and +1 rep to Jesen for simutaneously posting the same thing )

[Lithic]

Soloing red names in raids should never happen. Others have said why.

Now if you are talking about soloing quests, then there are some things you can do to help yourself.

The first is keep mobile. A high jump and 30% striders usually means you can run around healing yourself whenever you get low on HP. Alternatively, park a healbot hireling in a safe corner, and have him heal you when you need it.

The second is know your enemy, and bring the right weapons. Radience is great for everything except rednames. Its little sister deception can be usefull only if it appears on the right weapon. A +5 holyburst rapier of deception could be a good choice, but I wouldn't take it over a +3 holy of greater bane. To the solo rogue, greater banes are your friend. Deception just doesn't hit often enough to justify an inferior weapon. You wouldn't hear me complain if they made an item giving all weapons the deception ability though

Of course if the enemy is immune to sneak attack anyway, your best +X Element/alignment of greater bane should be in your hands (where X is as high as possible, and element/alignment is preferably something that does 2d6 damage or better per hit).

[SableShadow]

I use dual deception all the time when soloing reds (kobold, reaver's refuge, whisperdoom, whatever...not raid reds, usually), even through dr...a gb would probably work as well or better, but I'm used to the rhythm of deception and like the little extra bit of protection it gives me...ymmv.

Mobility and placement for your fight is as important (if not moreso) than the weapons...stoneskin, displacement, resists, and all that other junk you can wand/scroll onto yourself help a lot. Know when (and how) to back of, rebuff, and heal occasionally.

so my level 16 has a +4 holy silver rapier of deception and a +4 holy silver shortsword and is able to do fairly well vs an orthon, but really you want to wield TWO deception weapons in such a case. should i switch to a 2nd deception weapon even though it will be -15 to damage on each hit?

Try it out, see if it works for you.

[rodgyramjet]

I have a +4 holy silver scimitar of deception for my rogues.

Suzuki & Kawasaki

Deception only works for a few seconds though

With all the fuss about rogues and who's the best tank... Id like you to consider a party with 3 assassin rogues built like mine... maybe 4.... Screw DPS, just sneak and kill 2 at a time. Sure one might get agro... but the other few dont... easy killing. And my next question... What can a 'tank' do that a rogue cant?

[Knippers]

Stand toe-to-toe with something that's aggro'd on you and last longer.

[Vivanto]

so my level 16 has a +4 holy silver rapier of deception and a +4 holy silver shortsword and is able to do fairly well vs an orthon, but really you want to wield TWO deception weapons in such a case. should i switch to a 2nd deception weapon even though it will be -15 to damage on each hit?

May be already posted but didn't wanna read trough the thread just the op.

Just a hint, those orthons, along with 99% of the devils of shavarath out there, don't have both dr/good and dr/silver respectively, only need a plain holy weapon to beat them. So just use a holy rapier of deception and problem solved.

Only harry and sally needs the silver part. Also it is less than 15 for orthons and devils.

[Vivanto]

What can a 'tank' do that a rogue cant?

Die

[cforce]

This is hearsay, but I understand that the blindness caused by sleet storm can affect red-named bosses. I'm working up a Rogue/Wiz build now to verify this for myself, so take this as second-hand info for now, unless someone steps up to confirm/deny.