To swing or not to swing?

[transtemporal]

I find myself confused about warchanters popularity these days, their strong point is still buffing and not melee. why not get more buffing, CC, and healing with a spellsinger?

If cc, buffing and healing is what you want to do, then definitely make a spellsinger.

But wc have to put two feats into powerattack and weapon focus which is a big enough investment for me that I decided to make the most of it and build and play my TWF dorf brd14/ftr2 like a tank. Workin out surprisingly good.

As for reasons to make a wc? +1/+2 hit/damage yo!!!

[transtemporal]

I know personally that my wife's warchanter can out DPS most pure DPS characters outside of the elite guilds, and that's free DPS.

Heh, I know what you mean. With dual minII dorf axes, dorf axe damageII and tharnes goggles my bard pulls aggro off pug melees like crazy. But in my guild groups or the 'usual suspects', I come a distant 5th or 6th. Which is good because thats kinda where I built him to be.

[Demoyn]

I guess I don't think that party dr, and +2 damage and average melee capabilties is all that intersting to me as a build to play.

Gfunk was nice enough to work some warchanter builds into his DPS thread. The findings were that a properly built warchanter has about the same DPS as the best-built elven ranger against a non-favored enemy. It's true that it doesn't add up to elite DPS, but it's still much more significant than "average melee capabilities"... especially since it takes up a buffer raid spot and not a DPS raid spot.

[NXPlasmid]

Gfunk was nice enough to work some warchanter builds into his DPS thread. The findings were that a properly built warchanter has about the same DPS as the best-built elven ranger against a non-favored enemy. It's true that it doesn't add up to elite DPS, but it's still much more significant than "average melee capabilities"... especially since it takes up a buffer raid spot and not a DPS raid spot.

That's a raid build and I am pretty sure it's heavily dependant on clickies, buffs, and specific raid gear. Perfect bard for raids. Ok for quests but not as good as a spellsinger in my opinion. You can't have everything. I don't make builds for raids and that is not an interesting build to me. that's all. I totally understand why someone would build an play that type of build but it's not for me, just like a hagglebot, I'll never build one.

[MAP1974]

Like many, I built a low strength high charisma bard. Oh, she can buff a party all day but she isn’t that good in combat. My Spellsinger just doesn’t have the mêlée power of other characters even when fully buffed. I know that I am not the only one out there with a build like this. I can sing, dance, heal, and haggle your pants right off of you but I can’t hit a kolbold even when he throws himself at my sword.

So, what do you do when you aren’t buffing or spike healing?


Just looking for some different play styles here.

i watch something on youtube (jk!).

what can you do? well, my spellsinger has an 11 str (with a +3 tome). +6 stat item, throw in some divine power clickies, all your buffs and wade on in! using high + weapons is helpful, often i go with a +5 cursespewer/shattermantle, while wearing the levik's shield from hound for the odd heal - but horses for courses.

with vod and parts 4 and 5 of the shroud, i go a high end transmuting falchion on the bosses, if i know the rest of the party can take care of itself/is sensible. i usually have disp, stoneskin and if necessary fire shield up.

my bard is healing specc'd, and uses superior VI potency, gauntlets of eternity, lorriks necklace and empower heal. this was the intent for the character, but with quest familiarity, its now more interesting to bring out the weapons and mix it up a little.

for a lot of quests though, i spray crushing despair, hold monster and glitterdust around, with maybe some waves of exhaustion or enervate thrown in; a tank likes nothing more than a held monster, you can often hear the saliva dripping onto their microphone when they see it. mind you, i take satisfaction in also giving said held monster a spanking with my dreamspitter.

switching armour is also part of the deal. i am fortunate to have some GFL and some other nice stuff on some DT armour for when i melee.

i had been flirting with the idea of a concordant opposition throwing weapon for the situation you describe, where maybe i could just ping away, not worrying about damage, but with a view to picking up a little sp. i think it is however a waste.

as a slight aside, in terms of spellsinger/warchanter and their use to a party, i always find the discussion of which is more use interesting. so much is dictated by the quest and party make-up (and gear they wear). variables which cannot be quantified. as for 'bringing the dps', it would be interesting to know just how many players have carried out the various rituals on their weapons to pick up that tiny little bit of extra damage? how many have gone +4 insight on that mineral II weapon and therefore lost that little bit of dps? how many have that +3 tome and bumped up their strength? is it the case that a spellsinger gives casters that little extra bit of sp which may equate to a nice big fat damage spell, perhaps making up the loss the melee experience for less hits and damage? does a spellsingers probably larger sp (vis-a-vis warchanter) allow them to displace melee for much of a quest (i.e. vod), saving sp for those healing. personally, i find its all swings and roundabouts.

[Vallin]

Spellsingers and virtuoso bards have their roles too. Different classes excel in different situations.

Any dps that any character can contribute - at any time - can only be helpful. That said, sometimes keeping people buffed is the best way to contribute to dps, especially if melee will tax your cleric.

Also, any bard with high charisma most likely has a good enough umd to heal. That is also a good way to spend time.

The unfortunate reality is that many people get 'stuck' into thinking that characters have to be rolled or played in certain ways. Non-warchanter bards are extremely powerful for a party, if the party chooses to roll with that kind of play style on that particular run.

Vallin

[Demoyn]

...virtuoso bards have their roles too.

True... everyone needs a bank toon!

[Demoyn]

That's a raid build and I am pretty sure it's heavily dependant on clickies, buffs, and specific raid gear

My wife's build uses no clickies and has every buff she needs as a self-buff. I made this character for my wife specifically because she doesn't do well with an attention-dependant build.

If you like spellsingers better that's perfectly fine; I just don't want you to have misconceptions about warchanters (or more importantly - spread misconceptions about warchanters).

[Demoyn]

Internet issues are teh sux.

[Thrudh]

The only way I'd take a spellsinger over a warchanter on ANY quest is if the spellsinger is taking up a cleric slot.

So if a bard wants to join your LFM, you actually ask if he's a spellsinger or warchanter? And if he says spellsinger, you make him wait to see if a warchanter shows up?

Just curious... never had anyone who wanted a bard ask me which kind I was... Spell-singer songs are still pretty good, and the 10% SP savings isn't bad either...

[Demoyn]

So if a bard wants to join your LFM, you actually ask if he's a spellsinger or warchanter? And if he says spellsinger, you make him wait to see if a warchanter shows up?

I'm personally pretty open with my LFMs. When a bard joins my group, I ask them what spec they are. If they're warchanter they take the bard spot. If they're spellsinger they take the cleric spot. If they're virtuoso I boot them and try again.

Many of the people I run with, though, will only accept warchanters if they're leading the group. If we had enough people in this game to be that picky I would too, but more important to me than having a perfect group is the speed at which we start the quest.

Along the same lines I also accept monks (as long as the rest of the group can support their freeloading ***es), archers (unless I've grouped with them before and remembered that they're archers), and low hit point rogues (I just laugh when they die and refuse to rez them) into my parties. The only two groups that get the boot immediately are virtuoso bards and members of a certain horrible guild with two incessantly whinny leaders (though I felt horrible the other day when I declined a rogue of theirs that's actually a good player).

[Thrudh]

If they're virtuoso I boot them and try again.

Heh, the devs really need to give that line some love...

[Belwaar]

I'm personally pretty open with my LFMs. When a bard joins my group, I ask them what spec they are. If they're warchanter they take the bard spot. If they're spellsinger they take the cleric spot. If they're virtuoso I boot them and try again.

Many of the people I run with, though, will only accept warchanters if they're leading the group. If we had enough people in this game to be that picky I would too, but more important to me than having a perfect group is the speed at which we start the quest.

Oh! What if they lie, and you don't find out until the quest has already started? You're not going to reform are you?

...thank god I'm going warchanter...

[Demoyn]

Oh! What if they lie, and you don't find out until the quest has already started? You're not going to reform are you?

...thank god I'm going warchanter...

That depends on what quest I'm doing and how strong the group is. No matter what, though, their entire account goes on instant squelch.

Now I know being squelched by me isn't a big deal to many on Khyber, but my runs are almost always smooth, so they're really missing out (though sometimes I enjoy adding a few extra challenges, like pulling part two before giving instructions - keeps your skills sharp!).

[skyking613]

So if a bard wants to join your LFM, you actually ask if he's a spellsinger or warchanter? And if he says spellsinger, you make him wait to see if a warchanter shows up?

Just curious... never had anyone who wanted a bard ask me which kind I was... Spell-singer songs are still pretty good, and the 10% SP savings isn't bad either...

I have been asked while I was on my bard.
Oh, warchanter by the way. Who will swing at arritrikos if I trust and know the healers. Sometimes I will back out and hit him with my repeater while helping to heal, though she is not much of a healer

I dont have a spellsinger but I can tell you this.
I am quite thrilled when running my caster/cleric and see the little spellsinger buff. I love the sp savings and the dc+

[Emili]

Oh! What if they lie, and you don't find out until the quest has already started? You're not going to reform are you?

...thank god I'm going warchanter...

Actually if someone views a chanter as a must or actually pigeon-holes any character... it kind of shows they cannot think on the fly.

[Belwaar]

Actually if someone views a chanter as a must or actually pigeon-holes any character... it kind of shows they cannot think on the fly.

Yeah that's what I was kinda getting at

[Vallin]

I'm personally pretty open with my LFMs. When a bard joins my group, I ask them what spec they are. If they're warchanter they take the bard spot. If they're spellsinger they take the cleric spot. If they're virtuoso I boot them and try again.

Many of the people I run with, though, will only accept warchanters if they're leading the group. If we had enough people in this game to be that picky I would too, but more important to me than having a perfect group is the speed at which we start the quest.

Along the same lines I also accept monks (as long as the rest of the group can support their freeloading ***es), archers (unless I've grouped with them before and remembered that they're archers), and low hit point rogues (I just laugh when they die and refuse to rez them) into my parties. The only two groups that get the boot immediately are virtuoso bards and members of a certain horrible guild with two incessantly whinny leaders (though I felt horrible the other day when I declined a rogue of theirs that's actually a good player).

This is the kind of formulaic thinking that I was referring to in my post - but if it is fun for you then go for it!

In my opinion it is the sad by-product of months with little content development: people have found 'the best ways' to run quests. This leads to a game atmosphere where people expect builds to do certain things, or expect people to conduct themselves in certain ways at certain times.

No one wants someone to pull purposefully boneheaded maneuvers and waste people's time in a raid - but sometimes having different party makeup actually adds to the game challenge.

When everything is formulaic, quests are run with machine-like precision and they are subsequently labeled as 'smooth' runs. There are extreme counter-responses to this formulaic thinking (like the all-bard Shroud run, as an example). These are always fun but I still like the idea of diverse/short-manned party makeup because it brings challenge back to the game.

But I also still like my 28 point toons that are flawed - they make me have to compensate and sometimes that is a lot of fun (to me) because again it presents challenge.

Yesterday I took my virtuoso mid-level bard in the desert to see if I could do Bloodstone runs. Why not. I learned that I can fascinate the undead, charm the named mephit, and drag it to mummys to get curses and then to the caster gnolls to get blade barriered to death. Took a little longer than my typical blast through the desert with my cleric or sorc but it was kind of fun to find ways to do things a little differently.

So if you want to change your mind (although I doubt you will) there will be a virtuoso bard playing in the desert. I really need the bard's cloak if you want to give me a spot

I can buff, and heal, and my songs can help, some. If everyone else in the group is teh uberz then maybe you will let my gimp self join. But I won't hold my breath.

Vallin

[NXPlasmid]

My wife's build uses no clickies and has every buff she needs as a self-buff. I made this character for my wife specifically because she doesn't do well with an attention-dependant build.

If you like spellsingers better that's perfectly fine; I just don't want you to have misconceptions about warchanters (or more importantly - spread misconceptions about warchanters).

I think you are missinforming people, building a warchanter that can dps like the same level melee class without being heavily dependant on clickies and buffs requires a very good build and very good gear. It's far more likely that someone would take your comments to heart without understanding the level difficulty of that build and end up with a gimp. A spellsinger (in my opinion) is easier to build, period. You don't have to try and balance attributes or obtain specifc raid items and greensteels to be very effective at end game. For anyone with the experience and knowledge of building toons that can make your "so called" no buff melee DPS warchanter isn't going to be influenced by my remarks....

[Gornn]

if you're good enough, it doesnt matter who you bring with you on a quest.

All characters have their place. Am I building a warchanter? Yup. Built a spellsinger first, though.