Ranged DPS

[Aranticus]

Only if you play by spreadsheet.

anything digital can be quantised

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I have been unipressed with my two tempest chars so far.

So unimpressed that I may respect them and get rid of Tempest, but not just yet. I've decided to give it a chance as I lvl them up and see if it gets better.

IMO, I could be doing a lot more damage by using those feats on something else. Namely more Improved Crit feats.....as I'm not blessed to have only Rapiers in my possesion. I want Improved Crit Pierce, Ranged and Slash. And I honestly believe i can up my damage more than 10% on average with all of those feats. And more than make up for a 10% speed loss. And my Tempest Rogue could do better with more TWF feats IMO (and Improved Crit feats)

But I'll wait and see for now.

[Orratti]

If I were you and trying to go max ranged dps I would look alot more at rogue than any of the melee classes. The question is whether you are going to be using bows or repeaters. If you are going to be using bows I would consider going 18/2 Rog/Rgr. Take the 2 lvls of ranger sometime before lvl 9. Spend 1 feat on point blank shot at lvl 1, 3, or 6. At lvl 9 take manyshot. You will have to take point blank shot in order to be able to take manyshot. The rogue gives you backstab which as it increases will far outdo any kind of str damage you will recieve from any of the other classes. Collect a few different deception bows which will increase you chances of using said backstab (from the enveloping darkness side effect of deception) and will also boost your bluff skills making enemies turn their backs to you. Using manyshot on a non ranger character allows you to fire 3 arrows at a time. I know because I have one. With this build you won't get the max 10d6 backstab that a full rogue will have but you will recieve 8d6. So while using manyshot it is "possible" to do 24d6+reg dam+bow effects dam everytime you fire for the duration of manyshot. Of course in order to do backstab damage with the bow you have to be within 30ft of the target. The net effect of this in reality is that as an enemy approaches you he takes more and more damage but as he closes the gap it also gives more opportunity for the deception effect to go off and it does so fairly regularly. While not in manyshot you still have the opportunity of doing 8d6+reg dam+bow effects damage.

If you are going for a repeater build I would go 16/4 Rog/Ftr and build to have shot on the run and impr crit ranging. I do have one of these builds. Shot on the run allows you to stay within the 30 ft necessary to continously get backstab while running tight circles around the enemy after their aggro had been gotten by the melees in the party. Most of the time it is simply a run by straffing as between you and the melees the monster goes down without the need for circling. The three rounds in the repeater also give 8d6+reg dam+Xbow effects each. On my build using a holyburst of maiming heavy repeater that is a "possible" 13d6+reg dam per shot and 39d6+reg damage per clip making a "possible" 234+ pts of damage per clip. Considering that the crit range on a repeater with imp crit range is 17-20 the possibility of reaching numbers near that is high. The ranger bow combination has a chance of doing much better than that while using manyshot.

Since the main stats of a rogue are dex and int ranging meshes very well with it. You already get dex bonuses from the class that also improve you to hit. Rogues while doing alot of damage in a melee are also vulnerable due to a lack of hit points and have to be worked carefully to over come this. Mine usually carries no more than 20 cure serious potions and almost never needs any attention by a healer simply because I hardly get hit. Going this route you are still able to be top notch in the skills of the class as you don't need to sacrifice either int or dex for str and con. Of course I wouldn't suggest you neglect constitution.

I would strongly suggest that you use a drow for this build. Elves and halfling do get the same dex bonuses and halflings get added ac bonuses but with this build you are going to get spammed by alot of will based enchantments such as Otto's, fear, and hold to nullify you in combat and the drow spell resistance is going to stop most of this. It might not be necessary at high lvls but at low lvls it will be invaluable. Max out that spell resistance. Well that about covers it hope you have enjoyed the read.

[Aranticus]

I have been unipressed with my two tempest chars so far.

So unimpressed that I may respect them and get rid of Tempest, but not just yet. I've decided to give it a chance as I lvl them up and see if it gets better.

IMO, I could be doing a lot more damage by using those feats on something else. Namely more Improved Crit feats.....as I'm not blessed to have only Rapiers in my possesion. I want Improved Crit Pierce, Ranged and Slash. And I honestly believe i can up my damage more than 10% on average with all of those feats. And more than make up for a 10% speed loss. And my Tempest Rogue could do better with more TWF feats IMO (and Improved Crit feats)

But I'll wait and see for now.

building a tempest toon is a very delicate process as it is a very feat heavy toon. tempest doesnt really shine until you get gtwf which means L11 ranger. thats where you will see the amount of dps it produces

[Weylan]

If I were you and trying to go max ranged dps

I started up a ranged character on Cannith to see how viable it is without any available twinkage. I passed on Rogue levels (backstab damage unreliable IMO), and decided to go 19 Fighter/1 Sorceror. Elf, so I get longbow attack/damage enhancements, the Arcane Archer PrE, and Kensei 3.

She won't have Bow Strength until level 6, but it's only a loss of 3 damage per shot until then (new server, 28 point build, so 15 starting Str, 16 now at level 4) and the biggest damage boosters early on seem to be Favored Enemy (if Ranger and you choose reptilians) and +1d6 bow mods. I just bought a cheap +1 Longbow of Lesser Reptilian Bane off of the AH, so I expect that to help too.

I expect her to pick up a lot from 6 to 9. Bow Str at 6, Manyshot at 7, Arcane Archer at 9 (only because the Elf racial version of AA is ML9, otherwise I could have it earlier).

[Aranticus]

If I were you and trying to go max ranged dps I would look alot more at rogue than any of the melee classes. The question is whether you are going to be using bows or repeaters. If you are going to be using bows I would consider going 18/2 Rog/Rgr. Take the 2 lvls of ranger sometime before lvl 9. Spend 1 feat on point blank shot at lvl 1, 3, or 6. At lvl 9 take manyshot. You will have to take point blank shot in order to be able to take manyshot. The rogue gives you backstab which as it increases will far outdo any kind of str damage you will recieve from any of the other classes. Collect a few different deception bows which will increase you chances of using said backstab (from the enveloping darkness side effect of deception) and will also boost your bluff skills making enemies turn their backs to you.

it also means that you have to be within a certain range and not having agro in order for you to apply SA. if you are using MS, it is likely to pull agro to you and hence lose SA = lose a ton of dps

Using manyshot on a non ranger character allows you to fire 3 arrows at a time. I know because I have one.

if you really know how it works, then you would know that MS is based on BAB. at L16 you do not have max BAB as hence less shots. if you used a divine power or madstone clicky, your BAB will be boosted to max and hence 4 arrows (seems like at L20 is 5 arrows)

With this build you won't get the max 10d6 backstab that a full rogue will have but you will recieve 8d6. So while using manyshot it is "possible" to do 24d6+reg dam+bow effects dam everytime you fire for the duration of manyshot. Of course in order to do backstab damage with the bow you have to be within 30ft of the target. The net effect of this in reality is that as an enemy approaches you he takes more and more damage but as he closes the gap it also gives more opportunity for the deception effect to go off and it does so fairly regularly. While not in manyshot you still have the opportunity of doing 8d6+reg dam+bow effects damage.

if the mod dun agro on you

If you are going for a repeater build I would go 16/4 Rog/Ftr and build to have shot on the run and impr crit ranging. I do have one of these builds. Shot on the run allows you to stay within the 30 ft necessary to continously get backstab while running tight circles around the enemy after their aggro had been gotten by the melees in the party. Most of the time it is simply a run by straffing as between you and the melees the monster goes down without the need for circling. The three rounds in the repeater also give 8d6+reg dam+Xbow effects each. On my build using a holyburst of maiming heavy repeater that is a "possible" 13d6+reg dam per shot and 39d6+reg damage per clip making a "possible" 234+ pts of damage per clip. Considering that the crit range on a repeater with imp crit range is 17-20 the possibility of reaching numbers near that is high. The ranger bow combination has a chance of doing much better than that while using manyshot.

Since the main stats of a rogue are dex and int ranging meshes very well with it. You already get dex bonuses from the class that also improve you to hit. Rogues while doing alot of damage in a melee are also vulnerable due to a lack of hit points and have to be worked carefully to over come this. Mine usually carries no more than 20 cure serious potions and almost never needs any attention by a healer simply because I hardly get hit. Going this route you are still able to be top notch in the skills of the class as you don't need to sacrifice either int or dex for str and con. Of course I wouldn't suggest you neglect constitution.

I would strongly suggest that you use a drow for this build. Elves and halfling do get the same dex bonuses and halflings get added ac bonuses but with this build you are going to get spammed by alot of will based enchantments such as Otto's, fear, and hold to nullify you in combat and the drow spell resistance is going to stop most of this. It might not be necessary at high lvls but at low lvls it will be invaluable. Max out that spell resistance. Well that about covers it hope you have enjoyed the read.

halfling get guile SA bonus, up to +8 more SA. if you get spammed by spells, it means you have agro = you dun have SA. as for SR, there are items to cover that

[Orratti]

If you are using deception weapons you get the cover of darkness effect from it (that goes off very regularly) similar to the radience effect in which you still get to put out the same amount of damage (including backstab) while having aggro. Sr items do cover the enchantment spell effects thrown at you that is true and will work with the halfling or other racial build just fine. My way is never the only way. I consider that you didn't say I was flat out wrong and the build combination to be a horribly bad idea and I have no idea how to play the game or know what I am talking about to be the highest of compliments from you my friend. I do appreciate your pointing out that with manyshot you will do even more damage than I had given due to more missiles. I always enjoy reading your posts and am proud to have been reamed by the best.

[Ephemeral]

if ranged dps was increased then the game would become rapidly unbalanced under the current framework where archers can run and gun easily. Even with just 6 ranger levels, manyshot chews up single mobs; add in 30% striders and fps style movement and you have a very deadly combination. I would estimate that manyshot is about twice the dps of my current melee weapon set despite the fact that my build is entirely melee spec'd (this differential will go down with greensteel crafting ofc). Non-manyshot archery is probably around half the dps of my current melee equipment. However, getting hit when ranging is relatively rare, particularly if you have space to move around. The upshot is that against non-regenerating mobs, normal archery gets the job done whilst manyshot easily takes care of most regenerating mobs.

The key reasons why the current archery set up could create imbalances are actually quite simple:

i. everyone has shot on the run, i.e. you can reload whilst moving
ii. mobs don't shoot on the run

The only way I could see ranged dps being improved without imbalancing the game would be to have a 0,+5,+5,+10 cycle on attacks, but have it apply to damage rather than attack bonus *provided* you stand still when shooting. If you can move and output more damage than currently, I just can't see how the game can be kept balanced.

As a thought experiment, I could imagine a party of all ranged characters with good fps skills in a wide open space absolutely destroying most mobs; they would do this far more efficiently (in terms of healing and other resource usage) than a group of all melees in a similar environment.

As many have pointed out however, mixed parties don't work too well, especially when archers are wedded to their bows even when the mobs are in melee range. This is only exacerbated by the fact that tactics died on the legacy servers (i.e. non-cannith) a long time ago due to the excessive levels of twinkage there. If you have a group of people that use good squad tactics (co-ordinated attacks, prioritization of targets, use of the environment particularly choke-points, weapon swapping depending on mob proximity etc) then range and melee can mix very well, but this takes a high degree of experience working together to the point where you know how the rest of your group will act even without any direct communication.

And to maybe get back to the discussion in this thread, for those thinking of making pure ranged dps builds without solid melee capability, you are gimping your characters as much as favored souls who build toons that can't heal, rogues that can't dps, and casters that can't buff or crowd control.

[Angelus_dead]

If you have a group of people that use good squad tactics (co-ordinated attacks, prioritization of targets, use of the environment particularly choke-points, weapon swapping depending on mob proximity etc) then range and melee can mix very well, but this takes a high degree of experience working together to the point where you know how the rest of your group will act even without any direct communication.

Funny. What you're describing is people working together to make the mistake of using tactics that aren't actually helpful in DDO.

It's a phenomenon you can see in a lot of games: inexperienced people trying to fit themselves into a predefined role from movies, real life, or other games, when the rules of their current game doesn't actually support it. For example, that happens in PnP D&D if a Fighter tries to be a "meatshield" for the casters. In reality, he can only do that if the DM has the monsters behave stupidly and run right into the Fighter. By the game rules, there's no reason for them not to step right past him.

The "squad tactics" you're talking about are similar. It's a rather common refrain in DDO: someone will complain that he wants to "play smart tactics and go slow", indicating a denial of the reality that most smart tactics involve high speed. If a few people of that same mindset get together they can act out a pantomime of ranged and melee teamwork.

[Ephemeral]

Funny. What you're describing is people working together to make the mistake of using tactics that aren't actually helpful in DDO.

It's a phenomenon you can see in a lot of games: inexperienced people trying to fit themselves into a predefined role from movies, real life, or other games, when the rules of their current game doesn't actually support it. For example, that happens in PnP D&D if a Fighter tries to be a "meatshield" for the casters. In reality, he can only do that if the DM has the monsters behave stupidly and run right into the Fighter. By the game rules, there's no reason for them not to step right past him.

The "squad tactics" you're talking about are similar. It's a rather common refrain in DDO: someone will complain that he wants to "play smart tactics and go slow", indicating a denial of the reality that most smart tactics involve high speed. If a few people of that same mindset get together they can act out a pantomime of ranged and melee teamwork.

Actually, I didn't mean it in the way you have interpreted it. I have no desire to play with doorstop paladins or other such nonsense. Let me illustrate what I mean with a couple of examples taken from Cannith, where we're not yet fully geared. (And btw, don't let my join date confuse you - I have been playing DDO since 2006, but I don't like using my main forum account as I foolishly picked a name too close to my account name and haven't got around to asking for it to be changed yet).

I play in a semi-static set up in that I pug a lot, but it tends to be with the same people as there aren't too many 15+ toons on Cannith yet. Additionally, there are usually 2-3 people from my guild in most groups that I end up in.

We ran madstone and other GH quests about a week ago, in all fairness before we were ready in terms of gear (fortification items are now much more common on cannith than even a week ago for example). I had a paralyzer, probabaly one of the first that dropped on the server (loaned to me by a guildee in fact). We had no bard in the party, and no access to the disco ball. Therefore, the optimal tactics were for me to aggressively crowd control adds whilst the others beat on the paralyzed mobs one at a time. For the giant skeletons, the other tank was using disrupters whilst I was hitting with an improved cursespewing / improved destruction set up. This type of tactic is clearly a combined arms approach, where on the legacy servers the melee would pretty much just beat everything to death instead.

Against orthons, particularly the red named in the sub and also the one in Ritual Sacrifice, we've had to go down the initimitanking route; again, this is something that I'd expect melees to just beat to death on the established servers.

Von 3 was an example of combined ranged attacking, particularly when we were running in groups where the arcane couldn't get pk to land (symptomatic of the lack of +stat gear about a week ago; now, there is much more in the way of +5 and +6 items around). A guildee and I duo'd invaders in a similar fashion.

The really good groups I run with on Cannith are actually much better than the really good groups I ran with on Khyber, simply because we don't have the full set of tools we'd have access to normally. The key characteristic of these groups is that combat is very dynamic, with everyone pretty much reading what other people are doing and adapting their play in response. I've seen very few idiot ranged rangers who use nothing but the bow on cannith, but i have seen a lot of people using ranged combat intelligently in combination with melee tactics.

Edit: +1 rep for the youtube link, that was a hilariously appropriate video

[Maxelcat]

*sighs*

The solution to Archers kiteing things around the screen is easy. DONT. Our archer stands still, shoots, then has more than enough time to pull out some melee weapons and take care of things. (or the rest of us melee standing in front mowing them down as they come up.)

or if you have to kite, kite towards the DPS; don't just run around like a idiot.

Everyone in our guild has Effective ranged attacks. In out side zones we almost never have to melee monsters are dead before their even in range. And nothing deals with spell casters better. with your draw distance set to high, you can kill them off before they even cast.

Heck, even our cleric has a light repeater. Add a good plus, Acid and precision and that extra damage from the back rank is more than helpful.