The 32 Point Myth

[shores11]

OK, don't get me wrong the 32 point character (I have 3 capped 32 point builds) is very nice. The more ability points you have to spread around can usually only be a good thing.

I also have 3 capped 28 point characters (I have been playing since the pre-trial, Feb. 2006) that I will never reroll and play even more than I do my 32 point builds, probably because they were rolled on my 3 favorite classes to play wizard, ranger, rogue.

A 32 point build in and of itself does not mean a superior character. It is the passion and ability of the player that makes the character average, good or great. I personally do not consider myself a great player but I think I am fairly good and can contribute to a group very well.

The point is that so many folks stress over the 32 point build to a point where it is over valued. There is value in the 32 point build do not get me wrong but it is not the end all be all.

[PSU93]

I completely agree that a 32-point build (or uber gear, or tons of plat for that matter) does not automatically make a character good, and will not really improve the ability of a bad/unskilled/inexperienced player. But most of the really good players are going to want their characters to be as good as possible, naturally, and will want the 32-points to build with.

Where a 32-point build really matters is when those extra few Stat points allow you to pick up Feats that would otherwise be unavailable, for example TWF or Combat Expertise. It's not the Stats themselves that make the difference, but the abilities gained by having the Stats at certain values. The extra points are also more helpful for classes that "need" to spread out points among several Stats, such as Paladin or Monk.

[Leyoni]

The best builds (based on the designs submitted to the forums) combine maximum starting stat points with tomes to create characters that cannot be built in any other way.

For a long time that was done with +1 tomes. Stats were left at odd numbers and a series of +1 tomes were tossed at the build. Depending on the actual values of the starting stats this represented 4 or more build points.

Players with 32 point builds were, therefore, ahead by some small amount over those that had 28 point builds. The actual difference was only a +1 (or occassionally) a +2 in abilities. For example, a 28 point build might only have a 12 CON where a 32 point build would get to a 16 with the help of a +1 tome.

In some cases, like the example with CON, this makes a significant difference (32 hp at L16). In most it isn't a noticable difference.

Then the game began to drop +2 tomes. Now a 28 point build could match up with the 32 point builds by substituting +2 tomes for the +1 tomes. And, build forums started to see posts where it was assumed that the beginning character gobbled up a series of +2 tomes. So, the original 28 point and original 32 point builds became somewhat similar in ability because of the +2 tomes. But, new builds created new 32 point builds that were just a smidgen better -- again.

Now the game drops +3 tomes. These are mostly bound, so there aren't too many builds that rely on them. But it does mean that the original 28 point builds can munch these and be almost as good as the current 32 point builds. And, it means the old 32 point builds can munch them and be comparable (maybe slightly better in some cases) than the newer 32 point ones.

This is all a very long way of saying that the difference between 28 point and 32 point builds is often as small as an extra + on a tome. And, except when the difference is in INT (affecting skill points at each level) the end result can be two characters with precisely the same abilities even though one started as a 28 point toon and the other as a 32 point build.

[Kylani]

The best builds (based on the designs submitted to the forums) combine maximum starting stat points with tomes to create characters that cannot be built in any other way.

For a long time that was done with +1 tomes. Stats were left at odd numbers and a series of +1 tomes were tossed at the build. Depending on the actual values of the starting stats this represented 4 or more build points.

Players with 32 point builds were, therefore, ahead by some small amount over those that had 28 point builds. The actual difference was only a +1 (or occassionally) a +2 in abilities. For example, a 28 point build might only have a 12 CON where a 32 point build would get to a 16 with the help of a +1 tome.

In some cases, like the example with CON, this makes a significant difference (32 hp at L16). In most it isn't a noticable difference.

Then the game began to drop +2 tomes. Now a 28 point build could match up with the 32 point builds by substituting +2 tomes for the +1 tomes. And, build forums started to see posts where it was assumed that the beginning character gobbled up a series of +2 tomes. So, the original 28 point and original 32 point builds became somewhat similar in ability because of the +2 tomes. But, new builds created new 32 point builds that were just a smidgen better -- again.

Now the game drops +3 tomes. These are mostly bound, so there aren't too many builds that rely on them. But it does mean that the original 28 point builds can munch these and be almost as good as the current 32 point builds. And, it means the old 32 point builds can munch them and be comparable (maybe slightly better in some cases) than the newer 32 point ones.

This is all a very long way of saying that the difference between 28 point and 32 point builds is often as small as an extra + on a tome. And, except when the difference is in INT (affecting skill points at each level) the end result can be two characters with precisely the same abilities even though one started as a 28 point toon and the other as a 32 point build.

So you can't apply tomes to a 32 point build?

[Leyoni]

So you can't apply tomes to a 32 point build?

Sorry, maybe it was unclear.

Of course you can apply tomes to 32 point builds. In fact, that is what people do.

What I was trying to say is that lots of 32 point builds were made before +2 tomes dropped like candy. That means they were made using +1 tomes.

A 28 point build made during the same time can now get +2 tomes.

The 32 point build could use them but usually ends up on an odd number. Meaning that there is no difference in effective ability between that toon and the 28 point toon with the +2 tome.

Look at eonfreon's example. Toss +1 tomes at each. There is no effective difference because the 32 point build now sits on odd numbers. The effective stats are the same.

Of course, now we have +2 tomes in surplus. Toss +2 tomes and the 28 point build is once more just a bit behind the 32 point build.

But, figure in +3 tomes and the two are functionally the same again.

The real difference is in INT, as I said before. The 32 point build will have the advantage there and the extra skill points will add up through 16 levels (or 20 with DDO:EU).

So, what I'm trying to say is that the difference in characters is not that dramatic in a lot of cases. Obviously we can post builds where there are huge differences. But most builds will be fairly equal whether starting as 28 pointers or 32 pointers.

Now, here is something that build points can't address -- bad builds. If the character is horribly built (maxed CHA on my paladin and didn't give him any CON) there is nothing that having more build points is going to do to help. Or tomes for that matter!

[eonfreon]

Here are some figures:

Assuming a player has NO tomes when building a 28 pt or 32 point.
He wants to roll up a non-Ranger TWF and CE Melee character ( I exclude Rangers because they have the easiest time with prereq, since they are granted most things for free- a Dex 13 is all that's required to get Dodge which is needed for Tempest, that's pretty much it- then enough Con and Str and Int if CE is desired).

28 pt TWF / CE Character:

15 + 3 Level ups = 18
16 +1 level up = 17
13
13
8
8

32 Pt TWF / CE Character:

16 + 3 Level Ups = 19
16 + 1 Level Up = 17
14
14
8
8

Just a quick example of a simple melee stat spread for TWF and CE.

[jomonkey527]

Im still somewhat new to the game having really only started I believe in February. My first toon is an almost capped 28 pt WF cleric. With Devotion items, Pearl of Power, a plus three tome of Wis, I hold my own. I have never had anyone complain about my healing. I also am sure to carry enough scrolls, but with a good group rarely if ever have to tap into that. I play for fun. I want a good character but I agree once I unlock the 32 pt build Im not going to reroll my toon and run the same quests yets again. From what I have seen so far in the game is if you know what you are doing, play within your character's limits, and party with a good group a few extra points and feats shouldn't make or break a toon. Just my .02 as a somewhat new player to the mechanics and such.

[shores11]

Im still somewhat new to the game having really only started I believe in February. My first toon is an almost capped 28 pt WF cleric. With Devotion items, Pearl of Power, a plus three tome of Wis, I hold my own. I have never had anyone complain about my healing. I also am sure to carry enough scrolls, but with a good group rarely if ever have to tap into that. I play for fun. I want a good character but I agree once I unlock the 32 pt build Im not going to reroll my toon and run the same quests yets again. From what I have seen so far in the game is if you know what you are doing, play within your character's limits, and party with a good group a few extra points and feats shouldn't make or break a toon. Just my .02 as a somewhat new player to the mechanics and such.

You hit it dead on and this is why I will not ever reroll my 28 point builds as they are already very good and I like playing them a lot.

[FluffyCalico]

OK, don't get me wrong the 32 point character (I have 3 capped 32 point builds) is very nice. The more ability points you have to spread around can usually only be a good thing.

I also have 3 capped 28 point characters (I have been playing since the pre-trail, Feb. 2006) that I will never reroll and play even more than I do my 32 point builds, probably because they were rolled on my 3 favorite classes to play wizard, ranger, rogue.

A 32 point build in and of itself does not mean a superios character. It is the passion and ability of the player that makes the character average, good or great. I personally do not consider myself a great player but I think I am fairly good and can contribute to a group very well.

The point is that so many folks stress over the 32 point build to a point where it is over valued. There is value in the 32 point build do not get me wrong but it is not the end all be all.

Saying a fact is a myth does not make it true.

Example someone takes said 4 extra points and does one of the least usefull things with it. (puts it in a dump stat that effects saves).

They will now forever have 2 more on their save then the 28 point build would. No amount of gear or player skill changes this fact as they are all independant of this. Get the single best player in the game with the best gear in the game and raise his save by 2 and it still went up by 2.

[Thrudh]

The trick is to play a pure class, like a cleric or wizard or sorc with your 28 point characters.

My original 28 point character is still going strong... He's not inferior IN ANY IMPORTANT WAY...

His primary stats are just as strong as a 32-point character... His wisdom is just as high. The difference between 28 and 32 is in the secondary stats, and for a pure class, those really don't matter... We're talking 16 more hps (out of 300), we're talking 1 more skill point per level, or 1 more DV...

None of those make me feel like my character is inferior... He does as well at his primary functions as all the 32 point clerics... The differences really are very minor...

Now... when you're talking about complicated multi-class characters, it's different, because they may have multiple (3-4) primary stats instead of 1-2 like a pure class. THAT is where you notice the difference...

Play a 28-point pure wizard or pure cleric to 1750... and you'll never feel like you have to reroll the character...

Drow is another one you won't have to reroll... My first character is a 28 point cleric... still going strong. My second character, after I unlocked drow, was a 13/3 Bard/Rogue... You can play around with MC characters with a drow, and never worry about wanting to reroll them either.

A wizard/rogue drow has very good synergies, and you will not be able to improve it with a 32 point character down the line...

[Zenako]

32 point builds are better than a 28 point build, they do have 4 more build points (remember build points do not equal stat points at many values once you start getting noticeable bonuses). That is just simple math.

HOWEVER.

As has been mentioned, for a pure class character, the benefits tend to be around the margins, with the exceptions of Monk and Paladin. Those character classes have always been stat starved in every iteration of D&D. Both have 4 or more stats that directly contribute to the power of the build. Straight up Fighters, Wizards, Sorcs, Clerics tend to be less dependant on those secondary or even dump stats.

That being said, it is essentially impossible to tell the build from the play of most characters. Is it worth rerolling? For most, no. For those who need to feel that they have left no stone unturned, who are always bugged by those missing points, sure, they are likely only going to be satisfied with the absolute best they could be, even if the changes are to aspects of the character that are secondary at best to its playability. It might make the difference in a 95% UMD chance on HEAL scrolls vs a 100% chance for example. Yes it could make a difference 5% of the time, but so could just being lucky or unlucky on other rolls.

[Valezra]

Any 28 pt character can do well with ALL the game's content regardless of build (99% of the time). If you really want to min/max your character -OR- you are building an extremely complex character that needs to hit several benchmarks (ie Power Attack, Combat Expertise, GTWF) you may need so many stats set high that 32 points will be the only answer.

Example: I designed a Raging Trapsmith build which has high AC, high HP, Evasion, 55+ on all Rogue skills, 40+ UMD, and 40 Str when Raged. I actually could NOT have done this build without those extra 4 points. (I could but Con would have suffered way too much to be viable in Hard/Elite Raids and such).

Funny thing is, my hardest hitting character is a 28 pt build toon. I *could* reroll him but the marginal gains he would see isn't worth my effort. I did however reroll my Warpriest around level 11 to a 32 point build when I unlocked them. The 4 extra points gave me that little but of extra edge I felt the build needed.

Val

[Aeyr]

I will add this. Generally speaking there is quite a bit of "point inflation" throughout DDO. What I mean is that, while a +1 or so to a stat bonus or two (which is what 4 extra build points usually results in) is pretty substantial in PnP, it isn't as big a deal in DDO as its not that noticeable in the course of play. This is particularly true for very high level characters as the 1 point bonus basically means comparing a 30 Attack bonus to a 31 Attack bonus, or a 20 Spell DC to a 21 Spell DC for example. It makes a difference, sure, but its actually quite minor compared to all the bonuses that can be achieved via the combination of equipment, enhancements, feats, etc., particularly at the highest character levels.

I still play one 28 pt character, and he is still a lot of fun. I'd never reroll him for a +1 bonus here or there since I don't have the time to do so, and would just balk at the idea of reacquiring even a small amount of raid loot (I don't have much anyway, but still). I suppose I know what I'm doing fairly well with my characters, so my performance doesn't suffer for lacking that one extra bonus point too. Besides, if you're having fun, that's all that really matters.

[SableShadow]

The trick is to play a pure class, like a cleric or wizard or sorc with your 28 point characters.

My original 28 point character is still going strong... He's not inferior IN ANY IMPORTANT WAY...

His primary stats are just as strong as a 32-point character... His wisdom is just as high. The difference between 28 and 32 is in the secondary stats, and for a pure class, those really don't matter... We're talking 16 more hps (out of 300), we're talking 1 more skill point per level, or 1 more DV...

None of those make me feel like my character is inferior... He does as well at his primary functions as all the 32 point clerics... The differences really are very minor...

Now... when you're talking about complicated multi-class characters, it's different, because they may have multiple (3-4) primary stats instead of 1-2 like a pure class. THAT is where you notice the difference...

Play a 28-point pure wizard or pure cleric to 1750... and you'll never feel like you have to reroll the character...

Drow is another one you won't have to reroll... My first character is a 28 point cleric... still going strong. My second character, after I unlocked drow, was a 13/3 Bard/Rogue... You can play around with MC characters with a drow, and never worry about wanting to reroll them either.

A wizard/rogue drow has very good synergies, and you will not be able to improve it with a 32 point character down the line...

/bestInThread

[Leyoni]

Get the single best player in the game with the best gear in the game and raise his save by 2 and it still went up by 2.

That is true. But the real question is, does it ever matter?

I don't know the info on saves so I can't really speak to that. I do know, however, that the DC on traps is fairly well established and that, except for 1 or 2 elite traps, the extra +2 to DD would make no noticible difference.

So, while what you state is true it might not matter because it might never come into play.

[eonfreon]

What it comes down to is the player of course.

It is quite possible and likely that someone can build a very good to excellent 28 Pointer, depending on luck, intuition, and just plain understanding of game mechanics.

It is possible, but rather unlikely that someone could build a decent 28 Pointer and then build a bad 32 Pointer.
It is unlikely because of the amount of playtime required to "unlock" the 32 Pointer in the first place, so that even someone with initially poor understanding of the overall game mechanics surrounding stats, and skills, and feats, and abilities, will have learned through some trial and error.
And of course the person who can build an excellent 28 Pointer probably has astrong enough grasp of the mechanics involved to then build an excellent 32 Pointer.

However, I find it to be besides the point, really.
Here we are, "vets" talking about the "viability" of builds, but for the most part we can't even roll up 28 pointers unless we go to another server without the 1750 favor OR we follow Turbine's Predetermined 28 Point Start up Builds (*shudder*).

Sure, we can keep our 28 Pointers, 32 Pointers and Drow that we like and trash the ones we don't.
I don't think that has ever been seen as a problem.

I take it this thread is more directed to inform new players who may think that they are at an automatic disadvantage and become disinterested in playing on what they may perceive as an inherently inferior build.

The fact of the matter the 28/32 point "controversy" only matters to someone who's aware of it and, being aware, actually cares.
So if someone cares that he starts out on an statistically lower build and that he has to grind out 400 and 1750 Favor in X amount of time, to upgrade his "build potential", then it depends on exactly how much he cares and how long he'll keep playing due to this consideration.

In my opinion this whole matter of 28 and 32 point could be put to rest by allowing 28 pointers to acquire those 4 points at some Favor point (at the same point to point "cost" ratio as at Creation) instead of just unlocking future 32 Point builds.

[MysticRhythms]

The statement does depend on build and with the introduction of the Monk class, more builds became MAD (Multile-attributed dependent).

The Ranger/Monk builds that want solid AC and saving throws as well as good damage output have Dexterity and Wisdom requirements at the least. They like Strength because it adds to damage and every build wantsas much Constitution as it can afford.

Melee builds that require Two-Weapon Fighting often need to meet minimum Dexterity requirements while maintaing the other melee atributes of Strength and Constitution.

Paladin builds want everything the other melees do and usually want some Charisma too for saving throws.

The least-affected builds are the ones that heavily depend on 1-2 stats. Most Wizards and Sorcerers are happy with their spellcasting stat and Constitution. Some Fighters only care about Strength and Constitution. Some Clerics only Wisdom and Constitution.

Adding Two-Weapon-Fighting to a class that normally doesn't care about Dexterity automatically makes 32 point-buy attractive.

[shores11]

Saying a fact is a myth does not make it true.

Example someone takes said 4 extra points and does one of the least usefull things with it. (puts it in a dump stat that effects saves.

They will now forever have 2 more on their save then the 28 point build would. No amount of gear or player skill changes this fact as they are all independant of this. Get the single best player in the game with the best gear in the game and raise his save by 2 and it still went up by 2.

I am sorry that you misunderstood the title of this post. The "Myth" I was refering to was that a 32 point build is not so superior to a 28 point build that you can not do just as much be just as dominate and contribute just as much to a group.

[Gornn]

OK, don't get me wrong the 32 point character (I have 3 capped 32 point builds) is very nice. The more ability points you have to spread around can usually only be a good thing.

I also have 3 capped 28 point characters (I have been playing since the pre-trail, Feb. 2006) that I will never reroll and play even more than I do my 32 point builds, probably because they were rolled on my 3 favorite classes to play wizard, ranger, rogue.

A 32 point build in and of itself does not mean a superios character. It is the passion and ability of the player that makes the character average, good or great. I personally do not consider myself a great player but I think I am fairly good and can contribute to a group very well.

The point is that so many folks stress over the 32 point build to a point where it is over valued. There is value in the 32 point build do not get me wrong but it is not the end all be all.

Let me ask you a question. You've said that you have 3 capped 28 build characters and 3 capped 32 characters having unlocked them through favor.

When you create characters, you still roll 28 ones then?

[Valezra]

Let me ask you a question. You've said that you have 3 capped 28 build characters and 3 capped 32 characters having unlocked them through favor.

When you create characters, you still roll 28 ones then?

No, he probably rolls 32 pt characters. I think his point was that you shouldn't feel inferior or bad if your build is a 28 pt one.

I personally add though that we should all feel inferior and bad if we suck at playing. 28 pt or 32 pt won't make a difference in this.

Val