The 32 Point Myth

[Valezra]

The only thing I take from a thread called "The 32 point Myth" is this.

Is 32 points better to build a character with than 28? Answer: yes.'

Can you make 28 point characters viable? You sure can, but there is no myth about 32 point builds. It is better to make a character with 32 points than 28 to start.

Any argument to the contrary is just...well. Preposterous.

/agreed

But I think what the OP meant was that their is a myth about 32 pt builds being the only viable option for end game content. I've heard that stated many times and it's just untrue. I think most of us are all agreeing with eachother actually We just prefer our own way of communicating it.

Val

[Laith]

But I think what the OP meant was that their is a myth about 32 pt builds being the only viable option for end game content. I've heard that stated many times and it's just untrue.

interesting. i have yet to hear anyone say that... of course, maybe i have. i'd just dismiss it if i did.

[Zenako]

interesting. i have yet to hear anyone say that... of course, maybe i have. i'd just dismiss it if i did.

It gets said all the time on the forums and in game by some.

[Thrudh]

most people play enough that sticking with a 28pt build when it'd only take 1-2 weeks to cap a 32pt replacement is a bad idea in the long run.

Very few people cap in 1-2 weeks. Anyone who hasn't unlocked 32 point builds yet is NEW... Did you cap in 1-2 weeks on your FIRST character? Took me probably 6-7 months.

Even if it takes you months to cap a toon: if you plan on playing DDO for several years to come, rerolling as 32pt is still a good idea.

I'd much rather roll up some new guys then redo a character that I already spent months on...

One last time... my 28 point cleric, if he had 32 more points, would have no more wisdom... He would probably have 16 more hps and 1 more DV... Is that really worth throwing away all his raid loot and starting over?

Of course 32 points is better than 28 points... But the difference is very very small for most pure builds...

[eonfreon]

What it comes down to is the player of course.

It is quite possible and likely that someone can build a very good to excellent 28 Pointer, depending on luck, intuition, and just plain understanding of game mechanics.

It is possible, but rather unlikely that someone could build a decent 28 Pointer and then build a bad 32 Pointer.
It is unlikely because of the amount of playtime required to "unlock" the 32 Pointer in the first place, so that even someone with initially poor understanding of the overall game mechanics surrounding stats, and skills, and feats, and abilities, will have learned through some trial and error.
And of course the person who can build an excellent 28 Pointer probably has astrong enough grasp of the mechanics involved to then build an excellent 32 Pointer.

However, I find it to be besides the point, really.
Here we are, "vets" talking about the "viability" of builds, but for the most part we can't even roll up 28 pointers unless we go to another server without the 1750 favor OR we follow Turbine's Predetermined 28 Point Start up Builds (*shudder*).

Sure, we can keep our 28 Pointers, 32 Pointers and Drow that we like and trash the ones we don't.
I don't think that has ever been seen as a problem.

I take it this thread is more directed to inform new players who may think that they are at an automatic disadvantage and become disinterested in playing on what they may perceive as an inherently inferior build.

The fact of the matter the 28/32 point "controversy" only matters to someone who's aware of it and, being aware, actually cares.
So if someone cares that he starts out on an statistically lower build and that he has to grind out 400 and 1750 Favor in X amount of time, to upgrade his "build potential", then it depends on exactly how much he cares and how long he'll keep playing due to this consideration.

In my opinion this whole matter of 28 and 32 point could be put to rest by allowing 28 pointers to acquire those 4 points at some Favor point (at the same point to point "cost" ratio as at Creation) instead of just unlocking future 32 Point builds.

[Strakeln]

A 32 point build in and of itself does not mean a superios character.]

Everything else being equal, a 32 point build in and of itself is indeed superior. I think a lot of people lose sight of that.

[Thrudh]

Everything else being equal, a 32 point build in and of itself is indeed superior. I think a lot of people lose sight of that.

No, I think we all agree with that... The important part is the scale...

A 32 point fighter might be significantly better than a 28 point fighter, if those 4 points allow him to get both Combat Expertise (need 13 INT) and Two weapon fighting (need 17 DEX).

A 32 point wizard may only be marginally better than a 28 point wizard, if those 4 points allow him to get a 12 Wisdom instead of an 8 Wisdom...

[Laith]

Very few people cap in 1-2 weeks. Anyone who hasn't unlocked 32 point builds yet is NEW... Did you cap in 1-2 weeks on your FIRST character? Took me probably 6-7 months.

sorry, i edited it a bit since i exaggerated. even still, my entire argument revolved around "the value of rerolling depends on how much time it takes you to cap". Obviously, your 6-7month capping person doesn't get much benefit out of rerolling (considering how long it will take them to catch back up). You haven't refuted the argument.

Still, i never mentioned that we were talking about our first capped toons. Why do you find that important to this thread? Do you feel that new players will feel forced into unlocking 32pts with their first builds? If so, do you think this is good or bad for DDO?

When 32pt builds came around, i had 3 capped 28pts, and several more on the way. All of those non-capped builds were immediately scrapped to become 32pts. The capped toons eventually went that way too.

If 32 pt builds were around when i started, i probably would have done things a lot differently: i would have focused all of my effort in one or two toons to get 1750 favor quicker. I'd say one build, but i like some variety. Like you implied earlier: i would have tried to get 32pt builds as quickly as possible.

I'd much rather roll up some new guys then redo a character that I already spent months on...

i find that interesting. even though i've spent months on my characters, i'm always considering the future months i'm going to spend as well. This is how my last 28pt builds died: i thought to myself "even though i've spent months on this character, it's likely that i'm going to be spending years on this character in the future... the whole time with this annoying little itch that i could be better. Also, the loot i have now will get outdated eventually and (when compared to the impossibility of becoming 32pt) is relatively easy to re-earn. Even if i never re-earn them, the items will probably become outdated soon enough."

One last time... my 28 point cleric, if he had 32 more points, would have no more wisdom... He would probably have 16 more hps and 1 more DV... Is that really worth throwing away all his raid loot and starting over?

to you? apparently not. To me? Those HP could keep me standing (or incapped) just long enough to save the entire party. It would bother me, and eventually i'd reroll. The longer i fight it, the more i'll regret waiting (due to loot & stuff i'd earn in the mean time).

[kingfisher]

how are 4 extra ability points not always better? all things being equal, a 28 point build is always weaker than its 32 point mirror. whether its lower will saves or less hp or lower dex or whatever; some way the build is lesser.

that being said, it in no way MAKES a 28 point build a gimp or unplayable build, just not an optimum one. personally i have rerolled my 28's at this point, except for a bank toon, but i believe there is no reason to reroll a functioning 28 if you dont want to, as long as your ability can make up the difference.

[Thrudh]

Also, the loot i have now will get outdated eventually and (when compared to the impossibility of becoming 32pt) is relatively easy to re-earn. Even if i never re-earn them, the items will probably become outdated soon enough.

That's a good point, about bound loot becoming outdated...

Ah, well it's too late for me... He has way too much raid loot, tomes, etc. for me to ever reroll him...

[Leyoni]

iits not what if your toon is 28 or 32 .IT IS HOW YOU PLAY YOUR TOON.

I keep telling my wife this and she keeps telling me "Play with it all you want...."

[eonfreon]

No, I think we all agree with that... The important part is the scale...

A 32 point fighter might be significantly better than a 28 point fighter, if those 4 points allow him to get both Combat Expertise (need 13 INT) and Two weapon fighting (need 17 DEX).

A 32 point wizard may only be marginally better than a 28 point wizard, if those 4 points allow him to get a 12 Wisdom instead of an 8 Wisdom...

A + 1 to Will Saves is only marginally better than - 2 to Will Saves?

I understand what you're trying to say, and for the most part I even agree with you, if you continue on the assumption that a player makes the toon, not the toon makes the player, and if the player is not bothered by missing 4 points, then excellent, however if he is bothered by the fact that all things being equal, that +1 is far preferable to - 2 then he will most likely continue to be bothered throughout the life of his character.

Let's say a 10 or greater is needed on a Will Save by the two, one 28 point wiz w/ 8 wisdom, one 32 pt wiz w/ 12 Wisdom.
The 12 Wis Wiz needs a 9 or higher.
The 8 Wis Wiz needs a 12 or higher.

On a 20 point system that's 15% difference between making a save and not.

This will not "make or break" a build, necessarily, but it is certainly better to have the higher wisdom, even as a "dump" stat.

[Leyoni]

One more thing in all of this -- Drow. Drow are easy to unlock and, depending on build, equal to or better than 32 point builds.

Also, racial enhancements -- some builds only work with specific races because they depend on the stat boost that those races provide. This is why Rangers are almost always Drow, Elf or Halfling (mostly Halfling) at the moment. The racial boost to DEX figures highly into the build plans. The same holds true for other builds and stats (CON for WF/Dwarf, etc.).

[Zenako]

A + 1 to Will Saves is only marginally better than - 2 to Will Saves?

I understand what you're trying to say, and for the most part I even agree with you, if you continue on the assumption that a player makes the toon, not the toon makes the player, and if the player is not bothered by missing 4 points, then excellent, however if he is bothered by the fact that all things being equal, that +1 is far preferable to - 2 then he will most likely continue to be bothered throughout the life of his character.

Let's say a 10 or greater is needed on a Will Save by the two, one 28 point wiz w/ 8 wisdom, one 32 pt wiz w/ 12 Wisdom.
The 12 Wis Wiz needs a 9 or higher.
The 8 Wis Wiz needs a 12 or higher.

On a 20 point system that's 15% difference between making a save and not.

This will not "make or break" a build, necessarily, but it is certainly better to have the higher wisdom, even as a "dump" stat.

ummm an 8 WIS is only -1 to Will, not -2. Need to lower that to a 6 or 7 to get the -2 to Will saves.

The difference is 10%.

All this changes is the magnitude of the diffrence, not the actual difference.

Keep in mind many talk about end game difference, where you all still fail on 1's. On a DC 24 Save, it matters not if you add 23 to Will or 33 to Will, a 1 still fails. With GH, +5 Resistence, etc most characters end up saving way more often than not.

[Ann_Shadow]

i don't think it's about feeling inferior or bad... it's about people wanting to contribute the best they possibly can, or maybe even considering time spent on 28pts as "wasted".

For me, there came a time when i realized that i was going to be spending 100s of hours on the characters i was going to play. Why spend those 100s of hours on a 28pt build?

It's all about time, really.
If you're going to be playing a lot, there's no reason for you to stick with a 28. Time/effort spent capping a 32pt is insignificant.
If you rarely play and capping takes you a lot of effort, sticking with a 28pt might be best for you.


if people play enough that sticking with a 28pt build when it'd only take 1-3 weeks to cap a 32pt replacement, sticking with the 28pt is a bad idea in the long run.

Even if it takes you months to cap a toon: if you plan on playing DDO for several years to come, rerolling as 32pt is still a good idea.

As far as 28 pt pure casters goes, I deleted my pure wizard and pure Sorc as soon as I unlocked Drow. Which for those classes is akin to a 32 pt build.

It did not make sense not to. They were not level 16 at the time but I quickly saw the futility of playing them as 28s. Not even close.

[Thrudh]

A + 1 to Will Saves is only marginally better than - 2 to Will Saves?

I understand what you're trying to say, and for the most part I even agree with you, if you continue on the assumption that a player makes the toon, not the toon makes the player, and if the player is not bothered by missing 4 points, then excellent, however if he is bothered by the fact that all things being equal, that +1 is far preferable to - 2 then he will most likely continue to be bothered throughout the life of his character.

Let's say a 10 or greater is needed on a Will Save by the two, one 28 point wiz w/ 8 wisdom, one 32 pt wiz w/ 12 Wisdom.
The 12 Wis Wiz needs a 9 or higher.
The 8 Wis Wiz needs a 12 or higher.

On a 20 point system that's 15% difference between making a save and not.

This will not "make or break" a build, necessarily, but it is certainly better to have the higher wisdom, even as a "dump" stat.

It's actually +1 vs -1, so there's only a 10% difference, but I see what you're saying...

But you have to admit, although the 32 point wizard in this case is better, he's marginally better... I mean, a tiny tiny bit better...

Most players would never feel gimped at all... It's not a different between "Viable" and "maxed out", it's "maxed out at 99.7%" compared to "maxed out at 100%"

Rerolling and rebuilding the exact same character (over several months) for 0.3% more effectiveness seems pretty silly to me...

I'd much rather keep that 28 point wizard, and roll up a 32 point barbarian! Or maybe a bard! Or maybe a cleric/monk! So many possibilities!

Only the truly hard-core would reroll that wizard...

[Thrudh]

As far as 28 pt pure casters goes, I deleted my pure wizard and pure Sorc as soon as I unlocked Drow. Which for those classes is akin to a 32 pt build.

It did not make sense not to. They were not level 16 at the time but I quickly saw the futility of playing them as 28s. Not even close.

Good point... Drow DO make a caster significally better... since you can get your PRIMARY stat higher (unlike say a 28 point cleric who can get the same 18 Wisdom as the 32 pointer)

[MysticRhythms]

The statement does depend on build and with the introduction of the Monk class, more builds became MAD (Multile-attributed dependent).

The Ranger/Monk builds that want solid AC and saving throws as well as good damage output have Dexterity and Wisdom requirements at the least. They like Strength because it adds to damage and every build wantsas much Constitution as it can afford.

Melee builds that require Two-Weapon Fighting often need to meet minimum Dexterity requirements while maintaing the other melee atributes of Strength and Constitution.

Paladin builds want everything the other melees do and usually want some Charisma too for saving throws.

The least-affected builds are the ones that heavily depend on 1-2 stats. Most Wizards and Sorcerers are happy with their spellcasting stat and Constitution. Some Fighters only care about Strength and Constitution. Some Clerics only Wisdom and Constitution.

Adding Two-Weapon-Fighting to a class that normally doesn't care about Dexterity automatically makes 32 point-buy attractive.

[shores11]

Im still somewhat new to the game having really only started I believe in February. My first toon is an almost capped 28 pt WF cleric. With Devotion items, Pearl of Power, a plus three tome of Wis, I hold my own. I have never had anyone complain about my healing. I also am sure to carry enough scrolls, but with a good group rarely if ever have to tap into that. I play for fun. I want a good character but I agree once I unlock the 32 pt build Im not going to reroll my toon and run the same quests yets again. From what I have seen so far in the game is if you know what you are doing, play within your character's limits, and party with a good group a few extra points and feats shouldn't make or break a toon. Just my .02 as a somewhat new player to the mechanics and such.

You hit it dead on and this is why I will not ever reroll my 28 point builds as they are already very good and I like playing them a lot.

[shores11]

Let me ask you a question. You've said that you have 3 capped 28 build characters and 3 capped 32 characters having unlocked them through favor.

When you create characters, you still roll 28 ones then?

No, I roll 32 point builds obviously as stated I have 3 capped 32 point build characters. As I read below I am saying that having or playing 28 point builds is no reason to cry foul at the game. To be honest I really do not see much of a difference in play from my 28 point builds than from my 32 point builds.

As I also stated the reason I probably play my 28 point buulds more than my 32 point builds is because of the class my 28 point builds are (wizard, rogue, ranger). Those are my 3 favorite classes to play, my 32 point builds are a bard, paladin and cleric. I enjoy them but not as much as my other 3 that happen to be 28 point builds.