A Noobish Question about DC's

[cdemeritt]

Ok, Well having played now for over 1 1/2 years (since mod 5), I'm almost embarrassed to admit and ask this question, especially since my main for most of this time has been a sorcerer. However, this toon was always preformed well enough, that I haven't had an issue......

Ok, So my main Sorcerer is a capped drow. He is my first sorcerer that was viable past lvl 10. I tried 2 others first, but they didn't make it due to some seriously horrible errors. (1st one, Who needs Cha.... so my sorc got a cha of 12: Second one was a bad multiclass error), so as my first capped toon, I'm sure he isn't built completely to the best possible specs, but isn't going to be re-rolled any time soon. I'm just looking to try to improve him some.

I've never really looked at DC's and how they work, I just know that higher is better. I've been trying to figure out what Items stack and what doesn't as well, and am getting confused. I know on any quest lvl 14 and under, he lands FoD almost 90% of the time. SR isn't a problem and he rarely sees the blue flash of SR failure on any Lvl Quest. However in a recent shroud run, I was noticing that the mobs were saving about 50% of the time, and that any quest above a Lvl 14 the mobs save 30-50% of the time. And since I've seen other sorcerers do much better in these places, I assume it is that my DC's are lower.

I'm looking to improve my DC's, Especially since I heard that the mobs saves are going up in mod 9.

This is what I have: Lvl 16 Pure Drow sorcerer (intend to stay that way) with a Cha of only 32. Ok I know this is low for a drow sorcerer, and have seen people getting it up to 43. I'm still looking for my +3 Cha tome which will bring it to 34. I also have the Reavers Napkin, A Shroud SP Item PPP (made before Hound and Vision), and conjuration bracers with a necro spells +1 to DC- Which I don't believe stacks with the napkin.
What other Items should I be looking for to improve things here, Both DC and CHA. Also, while checking out my feats, I noticed I took MT early on, If I swap that for SF- Necro, is the +1 DC really going to be noticeable?

[KingOfCheese]

If you can get your DCs on Finger in the 30-32 range, you should be hitting regularly on current content--anything higher and you will be a killing machine. This range can be reached without too much of a gear requirement. Consider building a +3 exceptional charisma item (essentially a +9 CHR item)--with a +2 tome, this will get you to 36--two more ranks of DC. The napkin is great. Consider using heighten on tougher opponents to add one more DC rank. That alone should to the job without having to worry about a spell focus feat or any other special gear.

No matter what you do, there will be some mobs that are hard to hit (air ellies in the Reaver). Combine an enervate (or two or three) with Finger and nearly everything will drop easily.

[Phidius]

Ok, Well having played now for over 1 1/2 years (since mod 5), I'm almost embarrassed to admit and ask this question, especially since my main for most of this time has been a sorcerer. However, this toon was always preformed well enough, that I haven't had an issue......

Ok, So my main Sorcerer is a capped drow. He is my first sorcerer that was viable past lvl 10. I tried 2 others first, but they didn't make it due to some seriously horrible errors. (1st one, Who needs Cha.... so my sorc got a cha of 12: Second one was a bad multiclass error), so as my first capped toon, I'm sure he isn't built completely to the best possible specs, but isn't going to be re-rolled any time soon. I'm just looking to try to improve him some.

I've never really looked at DC's and how they work, I just know that higher is better. I've been trying to figure out what Items stack and what doesn't as well, and am getting confused. I know on any quest lvl 14 and under, he lands FoD almost 90% of the time. SR isn't a problem and he rarely sees the blue flash of SR failure on any Lvl Quest. However in a recent shroud run, I was noticing that the mobs were saving about 50% of the time, and that any quest above a Lvl 14 the mobs save 30-50% of the time. And since I've seen other sorcerers do much better in these places, I assume it is that my DC's are lower.

I'm looking to improve my DC's, Especially since I heard that the mobs saves are going up in mod 9.

This is what I have: Lvl 16 Pure Drow sorcerer (intend to stay that way) with a Cha of only 32. Ok I know this is low for a drow sorcerer, and have seen people getting it up to 43. I'm still looking for my +3 Cha tome which will bring it to 34. I also have the Reavers Napkin, A Shroud SP Item PPP (made before Hound and Vision), and conjuration bracers with a necro spells +1 to DC- Which I don't believe stacks with the napkin.
What other Items should I be looking for to improve things here, Both DC and CHA. Also, while checking out my feats, I noticed I took MT early on, If I swap that for SF- Necro, is the +1 DC really going to be noticeable?

Correct, the Conjuration/Necromancy bracers don't stack with the napkin, so you've got a free bracer slot as long as you keep the napkin equipped.

Shroud weapon with +1 and +2 Exceptional Charisma and a +2 Charisma tome would boost your DCs by 2.

Taking the feat Heighten would boost your FoD spell to an 8th level spell, granting a +1 to the DC. It would also make your Web awesome, too.

I'm guessing that as a sorc, you don't really have any problems with running out of SP that an extra 80 would help with. I'd swap the MT for Heighten, as you get the same benefit for FoD but even more benefit for lower level spells that rock high level content.

It sounds like you already know this, but I'll say it anyway. Spell penetration (the blue flash around your target) has nothing to do with the Spell DC... the target doesn't even have to make a save until after you've penetrated their SR. Higher caster levels, Spell Pen 1 and 2, all enhancements, and the best item you can get is how you penetrate SR. Don't forget that a Greater Spell Pen VI and a Spell Pen VII item is a great combo...


Dang, KingOfCheese beat me to it

[KingOfCheese]

Dang, Kingofcheese Beat Me To It :d

[cdemeritt]

If you can get your DCs on Finger in the 30-32 range, you should be hitting regularly on current content--anything higher and you will be a killing machine. This range can be reached without too much of a gear requirement. Consider building a +3 exceptional charisma item (essentially a +9 CHR item)--with a +2 tome, this will get you to 36--two more ranks of DC. The napkin is great. Consider using heighten on tougher opponents to add one more DC rank. That alone should to the job without having to worry about a spell focus feat or any other special gear.

No matter what you do, there will be some mobs that are hard to hit (air ellies in the Reaver). Combine an enervate (or two or three) with Finger and nearly everything will drop easily.

I did forget to add that I do have Highten, Max, Extend, SP, and GSP and never turn it off. I do have with everything a save of 30 on it. As for shroud items, is that Exceptional Cha bonus on a worn item or weapon? because my worn Cha item shows no effect on the save vs. FoD.

[Fennario]

Spell DC is calculated as such:

10 + charisma modifier + spell level + feats + items

Items do not stack.

The feat Heighten will increase your DC on spells that are lower than the highest level you can cast. While activated heighten will make all spells cast a level 8 spell currently. In mod 9 it will make them a level 9 spell. So right now it will give FOD (a level 7 spell) +1 DC. It will give Web (a level 2 spell) +6 DC. It will do nothing for Trap the Soul since it is already a level 8 spell.

You are correct that the napkin will not stack with your bracers.

You can get more charisma by making a shroud weapon with exceptional charisma +1 or +2 or both on it. You can also get exceptional charisma +1 on dragontouched armor but it will not stack with exceptional charisma +1 on a shroud weapon.

I would indeed drop MT. In my opinion MT is a wasted feat on a sorcerer.

[Fennario]

I did forget to add that I do have Highten, Max, Extend, SP, and GSP and never turn it off. I do have with everything a save of 30 on it. As for shroud items, is that Exceptional Cha bonus on a worn item or weapon? because my worn Cha item shows no effect on the save vs. FoD.

Exceptional charisma only comes on crafted shroud weapons and dragontouched armor.

My set up is a shroud dagger with:

10% healing amp
20% healing amp
+2 exceptional charisma

and a dragontouched robe with:

GFL
+1 exceptional charisma
Glacial Assault

Alot of people put +6 charisma, +1 exceptional charisma, and +2 exceptional charisma all on their shroud weapon. I do not like to do this as I swap out weapons sometimes. With a +6 charisma ring, and the set up that I have, I only lose 2 charisma when I swap my dagger out instead of 9.

[cdemeritt]

Exceptional charisma only comes on crafted shroud weapons and dragontouched armor.

My set up is a shroud dagger with:

10% healing amp
20% healing amp
+2 exceptional charisma

and a dragontouched robe with:

GFL
+1 exceptional charisma
Glacial Assault

Alot of people put +6 charisma, +1 exceptional charisma, and +2 exceptional charisma all on their shroud weapon. I do not like to do this as I swap out weapons sometimes. With a +6 charisma ring, and the set up that I have, I only lose 2 charisma when I swap my dagger out instead of 9.

I guess I didn't express my question correctly... Yes Exception CHa on shroud crafted Items... However Some Recipes do different things depending on if it is a weapon or Item. Take my sorcerer's mace, on a weapon, he put the fire absorbtion 45% I think(forget the recipe), really helps with fireballs to the face, and stacks with Resists and Prots. However the Exact same Recipe on a cloak only gives you fire resist 30, that doesn't stack with the resist spell. So I was just asking as I already have the Exceptional Cha (skills) on my SP goggles, If It stacked with what was on weapons... Which I think you said yes to, but not sure, and if it does, does it stack with other +6 standard Items ? I think the answers to all are yes, but I just want to make sure, but then again, I have enough power shards to just give it a shot.

Agreed on the not liking all my CHA (or any SP related Items) in my hands... Too easy to forget and hit a scroll or wand and loose large amounts of SP.

Edit: Ok, after some additional thought here, the Base +6 doesn't stack, but the Exceptional +3 added on does... Correct?

[KingOfCheese]

The +9 charisma can only be achieved on a weapon--not on gear. I use a triple positive dagger--6 charisma, +1 exceptional, +2 exceptional (for a total of +9). The charisma benefit on items it to charisma skills (haggle, UMD, etc.), while on weapons is to the charisma itself. My +9 dagger never leaves my hand. I swap items out in the other weapons slot.

The +3 exception charisma will also increase your charisma skills because you are gaining additional ranks.

The exceptional charisma (up to +3) will stack with any other charisma item (up to +6 for a max total of +9), but will not stack with other exceptional charisma boosts. The only additional stack you can get (that I am aware of) is the Abbott item that will add one more (Drow sorcs can get up to 40 charisma with this--without using boost potions--which are necessary for the 41+ range).

[transtemporal]

My set up is a shroud dagger with:

10% healing amp
20% healing amp
+2 exceptional charisma

and a dragontouched robe with:

GFL
+1 exceptional charisma
Glacial Assault

Fennario, does the +1 from the dt robe stack with the +2 from weapon? I didn't know that! I assumed the +2 would supercede the +1.

[cdemeritt]

Thank you. I'm rather glad to see I didn't completely screw up this toon, and he actually isn't that far off the base. It is good to finally sit down and look at all of this.

Ok, next similar question, dealing with SR. I have several beliefs that have come from various sources over the years, but am not sure if they are actually real or not.

As stated above, I rarely have an issue breaking an SR. with about 98% success rate. However, I've been told that GH and the Head of Good Forture (which I have) help Spell penn as both of these affect die rolls. But since I have all the spell penn enhancments and feats, I really don't know. While it seems noticable when I forget one or the other (more SR saves) this might just be phsycological. So do either GH or the "head" actually do anything to help break SR?

[Phidius]

As stated above, I rarely have an issue breaking an SR. with about 98% success rate. However, I've been told that GH and the Head of Good Forture (which I have) help Spell penn as both of these affect die rolls. But since I have all the spell penn enhancments and feats, I really don't know. While it seems noticable when I forget one or the other (more SR saves) this might just be phsycological. So do either GH or the "head" actually do anything to help break SR?

The "bonus to all saves" in the description for GH and HoGF refer to the saves you make, not to the saves that you force on others.

Just to be sure, I fingered a Vale trog, equiped HoGF, fingered trog, cast GH, fingered trog. The same bonus to my Spell penetration each time.

So I was just asking as I already have the Exceptional Cha (skills) on my SP goggles, If It stacked with what was on weapons... Which I think you said yes to, but not sure, and if it does, does it stack with other +6 standard Items ? I think the answers to all are yes, but I just want to make sure, but then again, I have enough power shards to just give it a shot.

Agreed on the not liking all my CHA (or any SP related Items) in my hands... Too easy to forget and hit a scroll or wand and loose large amounts of SP.

Edit: Ok, after some additional thought here, the Base +6 doesn't stack, but the Exceptional +3 added on does... Correct?

Your goggles have the Exception bonus to Charisma skills, while your weapon has exceptional bonus to Charisma ability. These are 2 totally different (yet related) effects that do indeed stack. Technically, your goggles could have +6 Exception Charisma Skills (+1 first tier, +2 second tier, and +3 third tier).

[cdemeritt]

Thank you for your help. GH and HoGF will still be used by me, but I at least know now that they aren't going to affect me too much if I forget them. Sad isn't it, this Toon is almost 2 years old, and I'm just now asking these things. At least I know where to focus my efforts to improve him.

[Phidius]

Thank you for your help. GH and HoGF will still be used by me, but I at least know now that they aren't going to affect me too much if I forget them. Sad isn't it, this Toon is almost 2 years old, and I'm just now asking these things. At least I know where to focus my efforts to improve him.

Nah - I learn something new every time I play... that's what keeps the game fun.

[Shade]

Only other source of DC boosting not mentioned yet is greater focus items. (+1 DC over and above what the reaver napkin offers)

There's really only a few in the game tho, and most are raidloot, or at least raid quality.

Dreamspitter +2 for enchantment, like hold monster. Not super important as its a 2 hander so it limits your charima as you cannot have exception cha +2 on at the same time.
Abbot Staff +2 for necromancy, like FoD. Same as above, limited as its a two hander.
Black Robe, +2 for evocation. Great item. Does require your to swap out robes occasonally tho. But if you like to nuke, its a must have.

[Fennario]

Fennario, does the +1 from the dt robe stack with the +2 from weapon? I didn't know that! I assumed the +2 would supercede the +1.

Yes the +1 stacks with the +2. However if you have +1 on the weapon, the +1 from dt armor will not stack. Exceptional bonuses only stack if they are different numbers.

[Fennario]

But if you like to nuke, its a must have.

I hardly think the +1 evocation dc that you are getting over the napkin is a must have. Sure its nice, but must have? Nah. You can nuke just fine without farming 25 black scales.. I know that I do.

[Desteria]

Minor Note fro a GOOD imo shroud weapon build for the exception cha... I also do not like to have all my cha in my hands AS they do swap fro stuf fliek dule GCB wepaons beatign on portals and the like my dagger is:

+6 STR (Neg)
+1 Exception CHA (Pos)
Which gave me Existalstalmate, +6 Wis, and varius skills.
Then i did +2 Excepptional CHA (Pos+Neg dule shard)
Which gave me Concordent oppition for the on hit rare bonus Temps or SP.

This is an expesive dagger in that it takes 24 larges BUT it give like 15 poitns of stats, and for me having the best of the best was worht the 12 extra larges but then I've run shourd a LOT and my sorc is my main Girl sooo i spent it adn havent looked back.

Also a HINT if your UMDing scrolls a lot, try and kepe your cha item in your off hand so it doesnt swap with scrolls, this can be triky if you also use skiver for archmage what I used to do before VoD bracers...

Any way it sounds like your on teh right track, realyl just a few raid items/top end tomes can make you better.


P.S. Dump Mental toughness it's a usless feat on a Sorc, I'd pick up Empower, my self but really ANYTHING is better then MT, other good options might be toughness if you want more HP, or skill focus UMD if you need 3 more to hit no fail heal/MCMW scrolls. but empower would be my first choice.

[Desteria]

I hardly think the +1 evocation dc that you are getting over the napkin is a must have. Sure its nice, but must have? Nah. You can nuke just fine without farming 25 black scales.. I know that I do.

True but if you want to be a really heavy nuker liek shade who uses nukes with saves, it's 2.5% more average damage, (mobs take half damage 5% less often, VERY ruff numbers), AND black area like about the least saught after scales soo realyl shoudl nto be overly hard to trade/buy them eather if you REALLY wan to go for TOP end nuking... however as he was onyl carring one of MAX/EMP before this i dont think absolutly maxing his nukeing was really a concern, and in his case not worth it.

Also in suport of the not worht it in general part, may be DT robes, as dependign on robe set up it may be not worht the one DC to swap out a DT robe with say something like your +6 con and GFL on it.....

[Shade]

I hardly think the +1 evocation dc that you are getting over the napkin is a must have. Sure its nice, but must have? Nah. You can nuke just fine without farming 25 black scales.. I know that I do.

Yea perhaps not a "must have" for all..

Just is for me.. I like to nuke better then "fine".

DT robe is the better one for insta kills, as much of what you want to instakill will have Spell resistance, so a DT robe + Greater spelll pen VIII sovereign rune is the best. I carry both and swap em.