Make xp unlimited and provide bonus AP at cap

[RobbinB]

XP currently serves very little purpose for the vast majority of the playerbase whose characters are capped. When Mod 9 is released, it's very likely my 8 current toons on Thelanis will all be capped within a month. What's the point of xp anyway? They might as well just bump us all to level 20 as soon as Mod 9 is released.

My suggestion is to make xp unlimited. After you reach cap the xp is accrued towards bonus action points. The cost of each bonus AP is increased. (Example: 0.5 million xp for the first AP, then 1.0 million, then 1.5 million, etc...). Combining increasing xp cost per ap with decreasing xp reward due to repetition of quests would make it exponentially harder to reach the next AP reward. (This would put limits on the benefits to extreme powergamers.) But at least there would always be some value to xp. There would also be more value in doing a diverse group of quests (once your xp for certain quests vastly decreases due to extreme repetition.) Also, there would be some value in just running the quests you like. For example, if you love Gianthold Tor to the extreme, then at least everytime you run that quest you would be getting some xp. (Good for fun quests no longer at cap where loot incentives are not a sufficient draw to bring capped characters into those quests.)

[Hafeal]

Since Mod 9 will bring the level cap to 20 and everything after that becomes "Epic", I really don't see the point in implementing your suggestion.

[Thrudh]

I think it's a good idea, except then what happens when they raise the level cap again?

[silverraven]

There are some of us who take 6-8 months to cap because we...ummm...like variety. It takes me about a year to cap because I fun on the lower-end quests. XP has alot of meaning for people like us.

[Nyvn]

Everquest did something very similar with Alternate Advancement Abilities. You end up with players who play alot being even more powerful. Not only do they have better gear, they have more/better AP. Which trivializes content for them. The devs either have to make content challenging for casual players, but trivial for powergames. Or challenging for Powergamers, but impossible for casual gamers. This already happens to some degree, but your suggestion would exacerbate it.

[WeaselKing]

This would be a bit overpowered, myself and many others would likely get every single available enhancement in a fairly short time. While I personally wouldn't mind it, this would only further the gap between the "haves" and "have-nots".

[RobbinB]

I think it's a good idea, except then what happens when they raise the level cap again?

The bonus xp could be coded slightly different. Anytime you are at cap, then xp earned feeds into the "bonus xp pool" starting at 0. When the level cap goes up, the earned xp is shunted back to the regular pool until you are again at cap. Then the xp is again shunted back to the bonus pool.

[Milolyen]

Everquest did something very similar with Alternate Advancement Abilities. You end up with players who play alot being even more powerful. Not only do they have better gear, they have more/better AP. Which trivializes content for them. The devs either have to make content challenging for casual players, but trivial for powergames. Or challenging for Powergamers, but impossible for casual gamers. This already happens to some degree, but your suggestion would exacerbate it.

QFT ... its better to just keep exp meaningless. The reason to keep running is to either have fun running the quests or to work on bettering your gear.

Milolyen

[Goldeneye]

I really like that idea: the benefit doesn't need to be very large to make it beneficial.

Imagine something rediculous, like:

1,000,000 give you two more AP
5,000,000 gives you two more ap
10,000,000 give you two more AP

It would add just a little bit of benefit to running end-game quests besides just collecting gear.

[RobbinB]

This would be a bit overpowered, myself and many others would likely get every single available enhancement in a fairly short time. While I personally wouldn't mind it, this would only further the gap between the "haves" and "have-nots".

This was the number one argument against such a system I was expecting to hear. Even powergames would have a problem getting further bonus AP when all their quests are at maximum repetition penalty and they need millions of xp for a single AP. So if you find that you have every single enhancement in a short period of time then there are 2 possible problems:
1. There aren't enough enhancements out there
2. They didn't set the xp cost per AP point high enough in the bonus pool

As far as haves and have-nots I think that a person should be rewarded for the time they invest into that character and that shouldn't really have a cap. The key is in the advancement curve, making it progressively more and more difficult to advance. So the "chasing" character is always getting more benefit per unit time invested.

[Thrudh]

The bonus xp could be coded slightly different. Anytime you are at cap, then xp earned feeds into the "bonus xp pool" starting at 0. When the level cap goes up, the earned xp is shunted back to the regular pool until you are again at cap. Then the xp is again shunted back to the bonus pool.

The problem is the way XP is awarded when repeating quests...

When you're capped, it stops recording how many times you've completed a quest... If that remained, one could just do a high exp quest over and over, getting full exp each time... If they changed it to mark your completions again, then they'd have to have some way to reset your completions back again when the level cap was raised again so you could advance your "normal" xp...

[RobbinB]

QFT ... its better to just keep exp meaningless. The reason to keep running is to either have fun running the quests or to work on bettering your gear.

Milolyen

That was my point. If you want xp to be meaningless, then by all means let's do that. Let's bump everyone up to level 20 immediately when the level cap goes up.

Bettering you gear is a carrot that keeps many players running content. But its problematic for many reasons:
1. It focusss players to run certain content, even though they may or may not like that content (at which point it becomes a "grind")
2. Powergames quickly attain all the best gear and therefore have no way to improve their characters
3. To allow further character improvement, devs have to provide increasingly powerful loot items, which causes "loot-inflation"

A bonus xp system allows character improvement in any content a character wishes to run, but in a manner that is subtle and not game-breaking.

[RobbinB]

The problem is the way XP is awarded when repeating quests...

When you're capped, it stops recording how many times you've completed a quest... If that remained, one could just do a high exp quest over and over, getting full exp each time... If they changed it to mark your completions again, then they'd have to have some way to reset your completions back again when the level cap was raised again so you could advance your "normal" xp...

Good point. Devs should find someway to earn their money though. How about when you are capped the quest tracker is also shunted starting again at 0. So the game codes that you've run shroud x times in the normal xp system and y times in the bonus xp system, and applies the appropriate penalties to whichever xp pool the xp is going into.

[Borror0]

What's the point of xp anyway? They might as well just bump us all to level 20 as soon as Mod 9 is released.

By the same logic, we should have access to all the gear in the game right away since it is possible to have all the gear you need on a character eventually.

It is not because something becomes eventually useless that it serves no function.

My suggestion is to make xp unlimited. After you reach cap the xp is accrued towards bonus action points.

That would be a nightmare. The existence of a level is what allows the developer to keep up with the playerbase and even there it is really hard. As you may have noticed, the content players can do at high levels is fairly limited. It would be only worse if they would follow your suggestion.

[RobbinB]

Everquest did something very similar with Alternate Advancement Abilities. You end up with players who play alot being even more powerful. Not only do they have better gear, they have more/better AP. Which trivializes content for them. The devs either have to make content challenging for casual players, but trivial for powergames. Or challenging for Powergamers, but impossible for casual gamers. This already happens to some degree, but your suggestion would exacerbate it.

I can't comment on what happened in Everquest since I've never played it. As far as the whole content challenge thing, I have no problem with the devs creating difficult content that is hard to complete. I think this is where the whole normal - hard - elite gap needs to be changed for new content. The lvl 1 - 2 - 3 for n - h - e made sense when the level cap was 4, but at 20 maybe it should be 20 - 23 -26 or something crazy like that. So yeah there is a huge difference between the casual gamer who is fully capable of completing the level 20 quest on normal, and the powergamer who is gonna really need the new loot items and some bonus AP's if he wants a reasonable shot at doing that quest on elite.

[RobbinB]

I really like that idea: the benefit doesn't need to be very large to make it beneficial.

Imagine something rediculous, like:

1,000,000 give you two more AP
5,000,000 gives you two more ap
10,000,000 give you two more AP

It would add just a little bit of benefit to running end-game quests besides just collecting gear.

Yeah, I think the devs could run a simulation on a powergamer-shared toon be running 24-7. How many bonus AP's would that toon be expected to have in 1 month? in 6 months? in 1 year?

With the system you describe above, I don't think it would really be all that many.

[RobbinB]

By the same logic, we should have access to all the gear in the game right away since it is possible to have all the gear you need on a character eventually.

It is not because something becomes eventually useless that it serves no function.

That would be a nightmare. The existence of a level is what allows the developer to keep up with the playerbase and even there it is really hard. As you may have noticed, the content players can do at high levels is fairly limited. It would be only worse if they would follow your suggestion.

My proposal to bump everyone immediately to level 20 was sarcasm. I'm saying that's pretty much what we have now for the vast majority of players with respect to xp. So why pretend? Make xp meaningful or remove it.

Remove it: give all players the level cap and let them choose from a list of equipment (or buy their equipment from a list with money). This is how a non-powergame version of DDO would work. Sort of equivalent to starting up a local PnP game above lvl 1. Your characters are advanced to a certain level and you get to choose your feats etc and how you want to equip your character.

If you don't want "haves" and "have-nots" this is how you do that. Success or failure in quest would be solely dependent on skill and time invested in the game wouldn't help you, except by improving your twitch skills or understanding of how the game works.

For the record, I don't support that format. I like the ability to improve my character through better loot and xp. I just don't think there should be a cap on the improvement. Limiting the discrepancy between haves and have-nots is accomplished by making the improvements nonlinear, thus favouring the person whose put less time into the game with respect to reward per unit time invested. And how is adding perhaps a half-dozen AP gained after a year of play gonna be game-breaking for the devs with respect to balance and quest design?

[Borror0]

Make xp meaningful or remove it.

By the same logic, we should have access to all the gear in the game right away since it is possible to have all the gear you need on a character eventually.

Well, that or completely remove all gear.

I just don't think there should be a cap on the improvement.

It's necessary if you want to keep your game fun.

[RigorAdar]

1. Put PnP crafting in the game to use xp.

2. Bring back the xp death penalty (bigger than before, and appopriate level reduction with it)

3. Grant Turbine Store Points for xp over the cap