shadow rogue/wiz

[protokon]

I have been studying build suggestions on the forum for a few weeks now, and have decided I have not found quite what I am looking for in a build for my play style, but this seems very close.

I am really interested in having the flexibility of being able to disable traps/doors with rogue skills and have viable move silently/hide skills for a kind of assassin mage idea. I have looked at ghoste's build and absolutely love the idea, but I am almost positive I want to splash rogue in to get all those extra skill points for not cross-classing as a pure wiz. I am really not very experienced with multiclassing and wouldnt mind some advice or pointing in the right direction for starting stats...

I suppose the third problem would be being able to do some type of non-sp damage, due to the fact that splashing rogue will make your spell pen lower and dc lower, lower spell points total and all that jazz. I love the idea of ranged attacking, so maybe some archery ability? oh, and I would also mention I am willing to spend +1 tomes on any stat and use maybe 1 +2 tome on int most likely.

here's what im thinking:
wf lawful good 2 rogue/18 wiz
My start stats:
str-10
dex-16 (17 with +1 tome)
con-16 (17 with +1 tome)
int-18 (20 with +2 tome)
wis-6
cha-6
1st level rogue,2nd-8th wizard,9th lvl rogue,10-20 wizard (access to lvl 9 spells)

im very open minded with this build, the foundation will be the sneak/hide so i can scout and assassinate my targets. the way i go about assassinating will be the icing on the cake, so if i have to go rogue/ranger, pure ranger, anything along those lines i'd like to hear those ideas as well. being a trap monkey just adds to the versatility for non raid parties.

edit: I am at work right now but when I get home in a few hours I'll crunch some numbers and post a more detailed idea for my build with the calculator.

[Noctus]

If you season Ghoste´s shadow mage with 2 levels of Rogue and take Insightfull Reflexes you will add a good chunk of Survivability to it and be able to invest some points into Hide/Move Silently, besides being able to deal with traps. But at the expense of casting power (less SP, less Spell Pen, fewer spell slots) .

But it will definetly be a good solobuild.

1st level rogue,2nd-8th wizard,9th lvl rogue,10-20 wizard (access to lvl 9 spells)

Tis is a good order of taking the levels.

I love the idea of ranged attacking, so maybe some archery ability?

Ranged DPS is woefully low, even on totally dedicated builds for that style. Dont choose that way for "non SP based DPS" on your Arcane trickster or you will regret it.

if you really want something of "Non-SP based DPS" you will be off much better to take the Feat "Power Attack", cast Master´s Touch, have a bunch of Divine Power clickys and/or and get some Tenser´s Transformation scrolls, and pop out a Greataxe for these special times.


I´d then recommend the folowing stat distribution:

Strength 16
Dexterity 8
Constitution 16
Intelligence 18 (all level ups here)
Wisdom 6
Charisma 6

[Varr]

The true assassinate insta kill clickie requires 12 levels min of rogue. Your better surved going 18/2 wiz/rogue for traps and evasion and a modest sneak for stratigic casting.

[Depravity]

Stealth casters are a blast to play. I'm currently leveling a Ghoste style wf build, an experimental stealth sorc, and my original 28 pt halfling stealth (pure) wizzy still runs around and causes his share of trouble. It's quite possible to hit most of the current end game stealth requirements with half-rank skills (I'm about 4 points shy of the move silent score in monastery elite), but you're still going to be squeezed on skill points.

Some hints, assuming you haven't obsessively taunted the AI already:
Spells come in, roughly, three flavors -
Causes Aggro - anything that causes damage, hp or stat wise
Causes Interest - critters will look around (possibly with boost to skills? unsure here), and will move to investigate epicenter in things that drop a "ring", like sleep
Causes Nothing - In the words of Schultz - "I see nussing, I hear nussing, I know nussing" curse, blindness, a few others, including contagion before they fail a save
Practice with your spells and figure out which is which, and you can make the mobs dance like your little puppets.

Charm/dominate doesn't cause aggro. At all. No aggro is generated until it breaks and they see you. Abuse this heavily.

These guys love the enlarge feat - being able to smack something from well outside of sight aggro range is awesome, especially when you're dominating something with friends in the room. Enlarged sleep is a standard tool for me to get things gathered out of my way.

Do not forget spot - works okay at half ranks + gear, and you'd be surprised how often I run across "stealth builds" that can't see the stealthed mobs they keep bumping into.

Don't rely on invis - I've seen people say this, but just don't do it. All it takes is one critter with true seeing to mess up your day. But do carry invis pots - there will be times you want invisibility, want it now, and are in something's sight lines. Chugging a pot won't break stealth.

[MrCow]

I´d then recommend the folowing stat distribution:

Strength 16
Dexterity 8
Constitution 16
Intelligence 18 (all level ups here)
Wisdom 6
Charisma 6

A stealth build should have higher DEX than that. While itemization can do wonders, you are limited in the lower-mid levels. Even then, being able to stealth without buff reliance (Greater Heroism) is quite helpful because there are times you will run out of SP, want to conserve SP, get dispelled, etc. You want a base of 14-16 DEX.

Causes Interest - critters will look around (possibly with boost to skills? unsure here), and will move to investigate epicenter in things that drop a "ring", like sleep

As far as I am aware, monsters do not get any form of a boost to skills when they are in "search mode". This just changes where they are looking. However, if a monster looks at you long enough while you are hiding it will gain a circumstantial bonus to spotting you that continuously rises, so there are times to be cautious of making a racket.

Also, one of the biggest goofs I constantly make when running a stealth wizard: Haste makes noise (as it is a ring spell).

Don't rely on invis - I've seen people say this, but just don't do it. All it takes is one critter with true seeing to mess up your day.

To add to this, several monster types have an innate see invisibility quality including beholders, drow, renders/reavers/flensers, maraliths, bezekira, several forms of giants, and a few other things. Being dependent on invisibility hurts when trying to sneak past these things, especially being demons generally have high spot checks.

[Noctus]

A stealth build should have higher DEX than that. While itemization can do wonders, you are limited in the lower-mid levels. Even then, being able to stealth without buff reliance (Greater Heroism) is quite helpful because there are times you will run out of SP, want to conserve SP, get dispelled, etc. You want a base of 14-16 DEX.

Low DEX has a tradeoff into the stealth skills, but the OP also wanted a non-SP based method of dealing damage. And you dont get that with a STR of 8-10.

[sephiroth1084]

So, with the rogue splash, what skills do you keep up?

I've got a WF Wiz 6/Rog 1 that I'm working on currently, and have been putting points into Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable and Concentration, with a point here or there in Tumble, Jump, Repair, Balance, Spot.

Are half ranks in the key skills going to be sufficient?

[Aranticus]

I have been studying build suggestions on the forum for a few weeks now, and have decided I have not found quite what I am looking for in a build for my play style, but this seems very close.

I am really interested in having the flexibility of being able to disable traps/doors with rogue skills and have viable move silently/hide skills for a kind of assassin mage idea.

what do you mean by assassin? if you mean by killing a mob outright using a melee strike, you need at least 12 rog. if you mean by using spells, then i have to caution you that spell casting breaks sneak movement

I have looked at ghoste's build and absolutely love the idea, but I am almost positive I want to splash rogue in to get all those extra skill points for not cross-classing as a pure wiz. I am really not very experienced with multiclassing and wouldnt mind some advice or pointing in the right direction for starting stats...

I suppose the third problem would be being able to do some type of non-sp damage, due to the fact that splashing rogue will make your spell pen lower and dc lower, lower spell points total and all that jazz. I love the idea of ranged attacking, so maybe some archery ability? oh, and I would also mention I am willing to spend +1 tomes on any stat and use maybe 1 +2 tome on int most likely.

here's what im thinking:
wf lawful good 2 rogue/18 wiz
My start stats:
str-10
dex-16 (17 with +1 tome)
con-16 (17 with +1 tome)
int-18 (20 with +2 tome)
wis-6
cha-6
1st level rogue,2nd-8th wizard,9th lvl rogue,10-20 wizard (access to lvl 9 spells)

im very open minded with this build, the foundation will be the sneak/hide so i can scout and assassinate my targets. the way i go about assassinating will be the icing on the cake, so if i have to go rogue/ranger, pure ranger, anything along those lines i'd like to hear those ideas as well. being a trap monkey just adds to the versatility for non raid parties.

edit: I am at work right now but when I get home in a few hours I'll crunch some numbers and post a more detailed idea for my build with the calculator.

i would suggest a higher str so that you will not be incapicated by debuffs. also get insightful reflexes to boost up your reflex save so that you make full use of the evasion. aim for killing via insta kill spells and if you want to kill with spells without been seen, enlarge is often needed

[FluffyCalico]

I have a 14/2 wiz/rogue now. It works very well. Main difference is mine is a drow but WF should work too.

By taking 1 level of rogue at level 1 and waiting until 13 for the other I was able to get both my seach and disable up in the 60s. This is more than enough for anything in the game on elite except for that one in GH that noone ever messes with anyway.
Grab yourself insightful reflexes and you are good to go.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My current one has 2 lvls of Mnk instead of Rog.......so I dont have to waste skill points trying to be a trap monkey.....and Air stance adds to Dex...thus stealth.

Took insightful reflexes but also trying to keep dex up (after max Int of course).

My original non-Ghoste inspired stealthy mage was a Drow with a starting Int of 18 and I think I also had an 18 Dex.
Not maxing Int hurt her some at end game, but not that bad really.
Only thing I did wrong with her as a Shadow mage build was not put more skill into Spot.....but a good Spot item helps there alot.

Always wished she had evasion though....thus the new Mnk/Wiz.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So, with the rogue splash, what skills do you keep up?

I've got a WF Wiz 6/Rog 1 that I'm working on currently, and have been putting points into Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable and Concentration, with a point here or there in Tumble, Jump, Repair, Balance, Spot.

Are half ranks in the key skills going to be sufficient?

Spot is very important to stealth.
(Learned that from a MrCow post and have since put it to good use)

You need to see those hiding baddies so you can sneak around them and not bump into them.

But my original Wiz can get by with a good spot item at high lvl.


But lots of lower lvl baddies are very difficult to spot.

[sephiroth1084]

Spot is very important to stealth.
(Learned that from a MrCow post and have since put it to good use)

You need to see those hiding baddies so you can sneak around them and not bump into them.

But my original Wiz can get by with a good spot item at high lvl.


But lots of lower lvl baddies are very difficult to spot.

Thanks. How much spot do you think is necessary for, say, Monastery Elite?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Thanks. How much spot do you think is necessary for, say, Monastery Elite?

Uhmmmm...not sure about that.
To spot the traps you need a lot.

I was talking more about spotting hiding monsters...which are not so many in Monestery...but end guy hides(and runs around fast)

My Stealth Wis only has three ranks in spot (cause I made her without direction or experiance in stealthiness). But with +13Goggles she seems to get by just fine. Can spot those hiding wolves in the Vale for instance.

But your low lvl beginner stealth guy is not gonna have +13 Spot goggles when he tries to sneak through Tangleroot.....or at mid lvls when he tries to sneak through CO6 ands needs to see those Mephits.

[protokon]

i would suggest a higher str so that you will not be incapicated by debuffs. also get insightful reflexes to boost up your reflex save so that you make full use of the evasion. aim for killing via insta kill spells and if you want to kill with spells without been seen, enlarge is often needed

this is good advice and yes, part of the problem is i don't know exactly what I want but i have a general idea. I like the idea of taking enlarge to be able to instakill from a distance, and then sneak my way through the dungeon and set myself up in a good spot to do it again.

on the other side, mentioning being able to instakill with a rogue makes me curious, because i have NEVER played as a rogue; if a rogue is in a dungeon soloing, does he have the ability to instakill?

-keep in mind when responding, I play the respective cleric and caster classes, so I am not used to the melee classes nor am fully aware of what they are capable of.

also, I pulled a +2 con tome which i will be using on him I also have a +2 int tome and may be willing to spend the money on a +2 dex or str tome, if that will make this build that much enjoyable.

on a last note: thanks for all the responses! many people have opinions backed by experience that I take into consideration for this project that I am taking so seriously.

anyone have equipment suggestion? I am tempted to change gear every 2-3 levels to bring out fullest potential throughout his life, the purpose of this build isnt to create a killer end-game toon, but to have a toon extremely satisfying to play throughout it's life, whether that be solo or PUGS.

[Depravity]

on the other side, mentioning being able to instakill with a rogue makes me curious, because i have NEVER played as a rogue; if a rogue is in a dungeon soloing, does he have the ability to instakill?

Rogues w/ the assassin II (level 12) prestige enhancement have a death attack. It's only usable from stealth on a non-aggroed critter, has a save of fort vs 10+rogue levels + int bonus, and I am not sure how much of a cooldown. My assassin character is currently on idle at level 8, so no personal experience.

anyone have equipment suggestion? I am tempted to change gear every 2-3 levels to bring out fullest potential throughout his life, the purpose of this build isnt to create a killer end-game toon, but to have a toon extremely satisfying to play throughout it's life, whether that be solo or PUGS.

You're going to want to keep disable and search at maximum available level, although your high int gives you more latitude than most. It will get expensive, unless you've been putting the gear away (on thelanis, at least, I've actually been finding it at the brokers. Worth a look). Spot stuff too, as has been pointed out earlier. For a wf character, essence of teh scout is pretty nice (+2 docent of move silently +5, ml 2), it drops in Stormcleave Outpost (usually pretty cheap on the auction house, too). There's a nice hide/ms +10 cloak available from the Threnal quest chain. Honestly, pretty much the usual wizard gear, with the addition of hide/ms/trapping gear. Usual pile of pots, including haste and invis for when you're stealthed and need to get buffed w/out attracting attention. Summon I scrolls for short cooldown distractions/bait. Be sure to keep an eye out for anything that you think will help you versus oozes, bats, or spiders, because they all see right through stealth, and will be the bane of your existence, until you have wall of fire, or cloudkill for low-fortitude bats (I loves me a web, a cloudkill, and a cloud of sick bats).

My Stealth Wis only has three ranks in spot (cause I made her without direction or experiance in stealthiness). But with +13Goggles she seems to get by just fine. Can spot those hiding wolves in the Vale for instance.

But your low lvl beginner stealth guy is not gonna have +13 Spot goggles when he tries to sneak through Tangleroot.....or at mid lvls when he tries to sneak through CO6 ands needs to see those Mephits.

Spotting traps, you're going to want full ranks, which is probably going to be stretching the skill points a mite thin. My stealth wizzy runs 0, because I did not know the importance of spot way back when, and he does okay with his dream visor (+13), although some of the mod 8 stuff will surprise him. My rogue-what-thinks-he's-a-tank has a few ranks in it, and runs about 20-25 with gear on, and sees pretty much everything. If you're taking rogue first, with a full allowance for spot, and throw it a half rank on wizard levels when you can afford it, you should be fine w/ some moderate eq as far as hidden enemies go.

Low levels are a pain for non "stealth class" stealth characters, without buffs and gear, those few ranks make more fo a difference than one would think. Things start to become easier when better gear becomes available, maybe level 5 or 7 you'll never really worry about it again, although that early rogue level will give you a huge boost at the beginning. You may be lucky and never really notice it.

[rejectedone]

If you season Ghoste´s shadow mage with 2 levels of Rogue and take Insightfull Reflexes you will add a good chunk of Survivability to it and be able to invest some points into Hide/Move Silently, besides being able to deal with traps. But at the expense of casting power (less SP, less Spell Pen, fewer spell slots) .

But it will definetly be a good solobuild.

You look at a pure wizard that picked up some cross-class rogue skills, i.e. stealth. Then call a wizard/rogue multiclass that uses these same skills (plus everything else a rogue gets) a "seasoned" version of that? Just seems funny to me.