My Champion (Battle Cleric)

[Aenoanx]

Im confused I seemed to have picked up an extra feat unless I miss counted when I was building this on papper.
Any opinions on the overall build? I am considering maybe I can drop Imp Mental Toughness (That's the extra one I hadn't counted on picking up) with something that might enhance my melee combat. Also for some reason the build did paladin/cleric so I don't know if that affects how much hp/spell points I actually have...in the end result. So I'd assume more then whats projected here. Being I am actually Cleric/Paladin. But this is my attempt at a 2handed Battle Cleric. I probably could have or should have went fighter in hindsight paladin seemed like the better choice for level-ups and getting extra spell points. Extra feat from fighter at lvl 1 might have given me that dps edge I needed. But I was concerned about how it would affect my SP and if it woulda been worth going 2 more levels.

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Aenoan 
Level 16 Lawful Good Human Male
(3 Paladin \ 13 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 234
Spell Points: 1128 
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 6
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             16                    16
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom               16                    24
Charisma              8                     9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               0                     1
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         6                    22
Diplomacy            -1                    -1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                    -1
Heal                  7                    23
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  3                     3
Listen                3                     7
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  3                     7
Swim                  3                     3
Tumble                n/a                   2
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 2 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Cleric)


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands


Level 8 (Paladin)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Heal I
Enhancement: Cleric Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Heal III
Enhancement: Paladin Devotion I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II

[hcarr]

I personally would skip the heal skill and put those skill points into balance. Only thing that jumps out at me.

[Angelus_dead]

Im confused I seemed to have picked up an extra feat unless I miss counted when I was building this on papper.
Any opinions on the overall build? I am considering maybe I can drop Imp Mental Toughness (Thats the extra one I hadn't counted on picking up) with something that might enhance my melee combat.

Humans have 1 more feat than any other race.

If a cleric wants to use two-handed weapons, it's fine to leave your wisdom base at 16, and put your level-advancement stats into strength instead. (Cleric Wisdom 3 will get it to 19, which is all that's really needed)

The Toughness, Mental Toughness, and Improved Mental Toughness feats are all fairly low-value.
You don't have Improved Critical Slashing, which is important. Some of the THF,ITHF,GTHF line is nice, but not essential. Also, Maximize Spell is good for any high-level cleric.

Paladin 3 gets you nothing really useful, and costs spellpoints.
Paladin 2 gets you little that is useful, obligates you to wear a charisma item, costs spellpoints, and costs access to level 8 spells. One level 8 spell is Holy Aura, which provides a better save boost than Divine Grace. It is uncommon to see someone with 8 charisma train pal2.

The Heal (and Repair) skills are always a mistake. Jump, Balance, or Spot would be superior (as is Concentration). Diplomacy can be helpful too, although it requires player attention.

[Aenoanx]

How does paladin 3 cost skill points? and even if I was concerned with end game(which I am to a degree)
Isn't disease immunity (Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health) a good thing at level 3 plus extra saves go from +2 to+3 maybe more w/ enchantments? I'm just considering that because in a couple "raiding" guides I saw it being mentioned I need to be carrying a disease immunity item and some kind of resist gear, I figured this would still require me that gear but somewhat less or at least less broad scale resist gear and more stats specific.

I can't see how mental toughness and imp mental toughness could be a bad thing, I'd still be a healer. I'd still want to contain enough spell points to either self heal/top off others and keep buffs like bless up on raid dps.

I seem to be getting mixed information about +heal skill. Some say its necessary and others saying no need for it.
I've always raised concentration first for when I am required to be the healer first and dps second. So maybe I could just use heal as a dump point when everything else is capped.

[Noctus]

Its all in the trade-offs you have to accept why these thigs are a "not so good" choice.


Having a week long holiday in your flat with all the food you can order from your local pizza eatery for free is not per se "un-good", but if the alternative is spending 10 bucks total for traveling to Hawaii for a week, and lounging there in a 5 star hotel, the 1st choice indeed does seem "bad" indeed.

[Demoyn]

I'm just considering that because in a couple "raiding" guides I saw it being mentioned I need to be carrying a disease immunity item and some kind of resist gear, I figured this would still require me that gear but somewhat less or at least less broad scale resist gear and more stats specific.

If you can show me an item you can wear that will give you two cleric levels I'll concede that taking two levels of paladin instead of just wearing an easy to obtain item isn't a bad idea.

[Dexxaan]

SCARY.

Could end up being a mirror Image of Gregorius; my "Holy Tactics Warrior" (People insiste he's a Battle Cleric )

Current build is Cleric 11 Paladin 3 Fighter 2;


Suggestions:

* Drop Empower Healing and go with Empower Spell for your Blade Barriers.
* Drop Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness for the same reasons, of course when you are actying as healer it helps as well.

At this point I'd say you have a few choices to make:

A) Take 2 Fighter levels for +1 STR, 2 Feats, Attack speed boosts, Tower Shield Use, etc.. and 2 More Cleric levels.

B) Take 2 Monk Levels, for 2 Feats, Balance skill, Evasion and Nice AC boost if you wear DTOutfit or Icy Raiments. and 2 more Cleric levels.

A bit more popular and/or "Clericish" would be to take 2 monk levels.... and could be really fun.



In my case I'm thinking Tank (Currently 57 AC without Combat Expertise) and I'm seriously looking into Cleric 12 Paladin 6 Fighter 2. (In the hopes of a nice combat oriented Cleric PrE + Defender of Siberys)


Hope this helps.

[Angelus_dead]

How does paladin 3 cost skill points?

It doesn't cost skill points, but it costs spellpoints, because paladin levels 2 and 3 don't grant any of those. Cleric levels 14 and 15 do grant spellpoitns, as do paladin levels 1 and 4.

Isn't disease immunity (Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health) a good thing at level 3...?

Nope. Disease immunity has no value at level 3. At high level it becomes non-worthless, but it's still not important- and that goes triple for clerics, who cure diseases so fast you can barely tell it was there.

I'm just considering that because in a couple "raiding" guides I saw it being mentioned I need to be carrying a disease immunity item and some kind of resist gear

1. Those guides are exaggerating. You don't really "need" disease immunity for any raid or quest. They're specifically talking about Shroud, where disease is a noticeable problem... but curing disease is not an obstacle for a cleric (If you can even manage to fail the infection save)
2. Those items aren't something worth giving up class levels for.

I can't see how mental toughness and imp mental toughness could be a bad thing, I'd still be a healer.

It's not a negative, but there are better feats you can get than 85 sp.

I seem to be getting mixed information about +heal skill. Some say its necessary and others saying no need for it.

No, nobody has said the "Heal" skill is necessary. Some people may have told you that you (the player) need skill at knowing how to heal, and some other people probably said you should learn the Heal spell. But putting skill points into Heal is always a mistake.

You can blame D&D for picking vague names for those very separate game features.

I've always raised concentration first for when I am required to be the healer first and dps second. So maybe I could just use heal as a dump point when everything else is capped.

Potentially helpful choices for extra skillpoints include balance, jump, diplomacy, tumble, and haggle.

[Angelus_dead]

* Drop Empower Healing and go with Empower Spell for your Blade Barriers.

Maximize Spell is superior to Empower for virtually every high-level situation. Basically, the only good reason to learn Empower Spell is if you already have Maximize and want even more.

[kappelm]

I'm interested in making a paladin/cleric. I was expecting to take paladin as my first level, but am I doing it wrong?

[Angelus_dead]

I'm interested in making a paladin/cleric. I was expecting to take paladin as my first level, but am I doing it wrong?

That's not really important, and paladin as level 1 may be a bit easier.

Be aware that the more paladin levels you add, the less sense they make. 1 is a pretty good idea, and up to 3 is defensible... but beyond that it's getting dumb. If you want more than 3 paladin levels, you probably shouldn't have any cleric levels at all.