TWF Evasion Pally - Again

[Tharlak]

Sorry, I know there are plenty of threads discussing these items, but I did not come to any conclusions reading them.

I'm looking for a TWF Kopesh Pally (KotC III) with Evasion. I'm looking at Human, but willing to consider anything but warforged (sorry don't like the toasters)

So that is 18Pally / 2 Monk or Rogue.

My struggle is Monk or Rogue.

Stats before equipment (limited to having only +1 tomes) will probably look like:

Str 15 +1tome +3 level = 19
Dex 15 +1 tome +1 level = 17
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Chr 15 +1 tome = 16

Will have Greater TWF, IC Slash, Extend, Toughness, Kopesh for both builds.

Benefit for Rogue is UMD and 1d6 sneak (occasionally)

Benefit for Monk is 2 feats (will get me Power Attack and Oversized TWF above the rogue build).

I don't believe I will get much benefit from Monk AC. Do Pally's benefit as much from UMD as other builds, probably not.

Looking for input.

[Vorn]

I think it will just come down to your preferred playstyle whether to stay pure or splash (rogue or monk or fighter).

My three pallys (and just started another one) all play differently. I prefer the monk splash one because he's a very forgiving build for when I do noob stuff (which is a lot of the time)--not awesome ac, not awesome dps but B's in many categories and hard to kill. The rogue splash is kind of fun for doing stuff with his very high umd and some batman abilities. The pure one who has intimi one I don't play very often because I tend to prefer to hit things and don't want to grind gear for him atm.

I guess you could drop wisdom to 8 if you want a couple of more build points to play with as 8 + tome + item > 14 is all you need for casting purposes. Many people will tell you that OTWF is a waste...it might be now but that extra +2 to hit might be handy some time. I have it on my pally/monk but I don't have extend which many folks will tell you is a sine quo non.

In any case, I don't think you can go far wrong with any of those. Roll it up and take it for a spin--you don't have to spend your tomes on it off the get go--your decision point will be on the dex tome/lvl up point and ITWF. You probably won't even use TWF before, oh say, lvl 10?

[eonfreon]

Tharlak,

If you go with your proposed stats:15, 15, 14, 8, 10, 15
Then this is what I think:
With an 8 Int even a Human Pally will only have 2 skill points, every other race will have 1, so with Rogue you'll basically be able to only max out one Utility skill, with a few points scattered here and there depending on when you actually take the Rogue levels.
With your stats I would recommend Monk, that way you get 2 extra Feats and Evasion.
So unless you want to max out Intimidate or UMD or Opening Doors or Finding Traps (you won't be able to both Find AND disable Traps with those stats) there is little 2 Rogue Levels will benefit you as opposed to a Monk splash.

One little side note:
Monk will however become a Premium Class so if you have thoughts about F2P and stuff Monk may not be ideal, otherwise as a VIP you'll be fine.

Good luck.

[Thanimal]

What's the deal with the WF hate lately? People don't like dealing more damage, having better AC, and being to immune to a pile of debilitating effects? Honestly my opinion is that for DPS Paladin with Evasion, WF Paladin 18/Monk 2 is a step above the other options. Of course, I'm open to being proven wrong.

I guess if you just can't have fun playing a WF, then no one should force you. It is a game, after all. But I really think if you make this build as a WF you'll have trouble going back to non-Paladin fleshies. The world is a dangerous place when you aren't immune to practically everything...

[eonfreon]

I’ve played Human Paladin/Rogue’s so here are my suggestions:

If you go down the Human Pally/Rogue route:
Str: 15 +1 Race + 3 level = 19 + 1 Tome = 20
Dex: 15 + 1 Tome +1 level = 17
Con: 11 or 13 + 1 Racial = 12 or 14 + 10 points from Human Toughness III
Int: 11 + 1 Tome for extra skills which will allow you to have a couple of scattered skills and a very nice UMD score (UMD is based on CHA so yeah- this could allow you to seriously cast Heal scrolls and Raise Deads with little to no fail- kind of nice if you work at it)
or
+2 for Combat Expertise (completely unnecessary, but keeps you within “AC-Relevance” Potential should you ever feel like grinding for it) until a +2 Tome falls in your lap, don’t worry about it.
Wis. 10
Cha 15 + 1 Tome = 16 = instant access to Divine Might I – which is very nice.

Whatever you do try to squeeze PA in, somehow.

Pally/Monk will make it easier to squeeze in nice Feats like Extend, Toughness, and PA.

If you prefer the Human Pally/Monk route your stats are fine but you might consider:
15,15,13,8,11,15

13 Con is as good as a 14 Con on a Human because you get to unlock an extra 10 hit points from the Toughness Feat and even out a stat at the same time.
Unless you find it much easier to find +1 Tomes, in which case keep your stats as is, you’ll benefit more, won’t have to worry about + 2 Con Tomes (so take +2 Str at 1750 Favor), and benefit nicely from +3 Tome.

Hope the advice helps.


Oh yeah, btw, I know nothing about Warforge Paladins.
That's up someone else's alley .

[vainangel]

I am mixing with ranger. Very fun to play, not sure end game he will stand out, but still fun!

[eonfreon]

Will type later.

[kodiak974]

But when you are immune to almost everything then you have chosen the easy button.

[Tharlak]

What's the deal with the WF hate lately? People don't like dealing more damage, having better AC, and being to immune to a pile of debilitating effects? Honestly my opinion is that for DPS Paladin with Evasion, WF Paladin 18/Monk 2 is a step above the other options. Of course, I'm open to being proven wrong.

I guess if you just can't have fun playing a WF, then no one should force you. It is a game, after all. But I really think if you make this build as a WF you'll have trouble going back to non-Paladin fleshies. The world is a dangerous place when you aren't immune to practically everything...

Sorry, no real hate, it's more the role play thing. Not that I'm a big RP'er, but been playing PnP DND since the 70's and machine's have never been part of my fantasy setting. Got no problem with them in the game, but it just doesn't feel right when I'm running one. And I have tried running one.

[Tharlak]

Thanks to all who have posted. A lot to think about.

I'm still no closer to finalizing my decision, but I guess that's a good thing having several great options, not just one mandatory option.

Still inclined for the rogue splash.

eonfreon - I really like the 11 Int (making room for CE should I get a crack at a +2 Int tome).

What do you think of lowering wis to 8 (from Vorn's post) then using a +1 Wis tome, plus items for casting. Then going with a 13 con.

[Thanimal]

Sorry, no real hate, it's more the role play thing. Not that I'm a big RP'er, but been playing PnP DND since the 70's and machine's have never been part of my fantasy setting. Got no problem with them in the game, but it just doesn't feel right when I'm running one. And I have tried running one.

To each his own! Just seems funny to me -- I started PnP in 1980, and of course never had a character who was a construct (wrist slap for using RP as your reason and then calling WF "machines" ). But after I played my first WF, I realized they were usually much more fun for me than other races. It's too bad you don't enjoy playing them, especially if you want to a build a DPS Paladin with Evasion.

But, of course, do what is fun for you!

[eonfreon]

Thanks to all who have posted. A lot to think about.

I'm still no closer to finalizing my decision, but I guess that's a good thing having several great options, not just one mandatory option.

Still inclined for the rogue splash.

eonfreon - I really like the 11 Int (making room for CE should I get a crack at a +2 Int tome).

What do you think of lowering wis to 8 (from Vorn's post) then using a +1 Wis tome, plus items for casting. Then going with a 13 con.

I'm a big fan of Wis 8 too with the stuff you mentioned and getting a 13 Con, but in the end I went against it because I hate when at end game and you get dispelled alot, you waste time switching to an item for something as basic as re-buffing a Divine Favor.

And you only lose 16 Hit Points at Level 16 and 20 when the EndCap goes up- I liked the tradeoff.
Keeping a 10 Wis means that same +1 Tome will mean instant casting of 1st level spells etc... just a tradeoff.

This is the comparison I could think of for Hit Points between an 13 and 11 Con - with some Loot and Grind needed.

Hit Points Con 13 OR Con 11

@ Level 16 = 414 OR 398
Buffs and Gear: 475 OR 459

Paladin (14 * 10 = 140) = 140
+ Rogue (2 * 6 = 12) = 152
+ Toughness Feat (18) = 170
+ Paladin Toughness IV (40) = 210
+ Human Toughness III (30) = 240
+ Constitution Bonus (6 * 16 = 96) = 336
+ Heroic Durability (20) = 356
+ 10 Draconic Vitality = 366
+ Minos Toughness (18) = 384
+ Greater False Life (30) = 414 @ Level 16 OR 398 HP w/ starting Con. 11
+ Shroud Item (45) = 459
+ Rage Pot/Spell (16) = 475 OR 459

Hit Points Con 13 OR Con 11

@ Level 20 = 482 OR 462
Buffs and Gear: 547 OR 527

+ (Paladin (10) + Con (6) + Toughness (1) = 17 * 4 Levels = 68
= 482 @ Level 20 OR 462
+Shroud Item (45) = 527 OR 507
+Rage Pot/Spell (20) = 547 OR 527

This assumes either:
Con.13 + 1 Racial = 14 + 6 Item = 20 + 2 Tome = 22

OR

Con 11 + 1 Racial = 12 + 6 Item = 18 + 2 Tome = 20

[Tharlak]

Thank you for the very thorough post.

I can't believe that I'm saying this, but I think you're talking me into an 11 con.

[eonfreon]

Just remember that's with a lot of gear, so depends on what you got and what you want to get.

Without Raid Loot and with most easy stuff an 11 Con will get you 350+ or so at level 16 as long as you drink a rage pot and get Toughness enhancements unlocked. Getting to 400 at Level 16 with an 11 Con can take a lot of work.

And a 13 Con will get you 370-380+ off the top of my head- the numbers are there for you to rework narrow down if you want, I'm not actually the best at number crunching- lots of paper and pencils to reach my figures.

[Vorn]

Just a quick note--I have an existential stalemate shroud item geared into each of my pally's in order to get the +6 wisdom, wiz vi, +150 spell points so the 8 starting wisdom doesn't bother them--well see if they get Mord. Disjunctioned what that will mean, but I rather imagine if that happens there will be more to worry about then wis and spell points.

[eonfreon]

Also remember I already have most of this gear set-up so I could afford to sacrifice Hit Points for basically convenience.

For me 16 or 20 HP < Gear set up and Convenience for my playstyle.

However, 16 or 20 extra Hit Points is nice too.

[Return_To_Forever]

I feel like rog overall is a better dps option than mnk, mnk is only good if you think you need the feats, and I'm pretty sureyou don't, as I have a 2rog/14 pal, and the onlything I don'thave is ext, and don't really mind, I may get it, or somethign else w/ the new mod. Haste boost and sneak attack and insane umd are better than feats you don't need, imo.

[eonfreon]

BTW, if you do go with Rogue I do highly recommend UMD, high Charisma will get you nice UMD.
Then maybe Jump and Balance of course.
If you can fit it in and know how to use it, Intimidate can also be useful at times.

One thing though.
Pally/Monk does indeed get some benefit to AC if done right, even str based and with the extra Feats makes DPS easier, because you must find some way to squeeze in PA.
If you don't care about UMD and Intimidate then I think Monk splash might be better.

I have tried both. I eventually preferred my Pally/Rogue and deleted my Pally/Monk when I ran out of space and wanted to try something new.

So, if this is a character you really want to try to gear up and keep around I suggest Pally/Rogue and stats:
15, 15, 13, 11, 8, 15.

Let me know what you think.

[Return_To_Forever]

I also agree that 8 wis is fine, your goin to ext stale an item, and be just fine, i would much rather have the hp.

[Comfortably]

I feel like rog overall is a better dps option than mnk, mnk is only good if you think you need the feats, and I'm pretty sureyou don't, as I have a 2rog/14 pal, and the onlything I don'thave is ext, and don't really mind, I may get it, or somethign else w/ the new mod. Haste boost and sneak attack and insane umd are better than feats you don't need, imo.

I'd further this statement. UMD and SA dmg>>>>2 feats.