Change items with Dodge Bonus

[Borror0]

If everyone can build AC that can not be hit the challenge of your game just went down a ton.

You assume that the intent is to allow players to not be hit all the time. That's not true.

Let's assume that the typical high AC character's AC allows him to avoid 50% of all incoming hits. That means that, in comparison, the typical DPS character is at least ten times less survivable than the tank! Imagine how squishy barbarian, who can currently handle all the aggro in DDO, if mobs were hitting ten times harder.

That's why S&B is so weak right now. If DDO developers try to make high AC be not overkill, they'll overpower it.

PS: Once again, I don't agree with the solution found in the OP.

[maddmatt70]

That's a quote from Ghostcrawler, WoW's Lead Developer:

I just love how you try to rationalize a nerf on a three year old weapon as the correct business practice. I am sure WOW makes this mistake every week. Not that WOW methods have anything to do with DDOs after all DDO releases content once every blue moon so the least they could do is have a good process in place for analyzing DDO and making changes. Transmuters taking 1.5 years to get nerfed, W/p 3 years to get nerfed, true rez clickies 1.5 years. Firewalls and blade barrrior changes after they had been around for years. That is some great process work.

They have a great opportunity with the new changes with DDOEU to institute new processes for analysis of DDO in the game, quicker recommendations for changes or nerfs and a quicker implementation of these changes. Turbine could really turn the corner so lets see it happen.

[Borror0]

I just love how you try to rationalize a nerf on a three year old weapon as the correct business practice.

Let's use the inverse logic.

How do you rationalize improving a feat, spell, skill, class or combat style that hs been useless for years?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I don't know how WOW manages its processes and I would guess neither do you, but I strongly feel DDO could manage its nerf process better. Are you trying to tell me that nerfing w/p 3 years after it had been in the game is a good business practice? They should have determined far earlier that w/p was problematic and nerf it then.

Your timeline is artificial and a bit silly. But...

w/p wasn't a problem for the entire 3 years, its really only been the last year that its been a problem due to the most recent hyperinflated hp mobs. Right up to Necro DPS/Vorpal/Distrupter/Smiter were pretty much on par options to w/p. If mod 9 had come out at the end of last year as planned originally they would have been pretty much within 6 months of the balance issue becomming obvious.

[maddmatt70]

Your timeline is artificial and a bit silly. But...

w/p wasn't a problem for the entire 3 years, its really only been the last year that its been a problem due to the most recent hyperinflated hp mobs. Right up to Necro DPS/Vorpal/Distrupter/Smiter were pretty much on par options to w/p.

So in mod 4 in the gianthold w/p was not the most powerful trash mob weapons is that what you are trying to say? W/p has been around for a long time now and its not a new thing. Oh and it was not forseeable mobs hit points would be raised way back when.

If mod 9 had come out at the end of last year as planned originally they would have been pretty much within 6 months of the balance issue becomming obvious.

They can always change their systems to add a change update so even if mod 9 was delayed mod 8.1 would have been released with changes to the current content. This is the sort of thing I am talking about - changing processes.

[Borror0]

So in mod 4 in the gianthold w/p was not the most powerful trash mob weapons is that what you are trying to say?

From the Ghostcrawler quote:
3) We have a really long list of changes we want to make to WoW. Some things just take awhile to get to. More critical issues do get bumped to the top, but sometimes it still takes us a bit to agree on the right change and often bug fixes get even higher priority than design changes.

It was overpowered, but not alarmingly overpowered. They had more important things to deal with since then.

[maddmatt70]

Let's use the inverse logic.

How do you rationalize improving a feat, spell, skill, class or combat style that hs been useless for years?

Basically the same agrument as nerfs that DDO needs to improve its process practice. They need to analyze a feat, skill, class, and combat system after it is in DDO and make changes to improve it with a quicker timeline in mind then years.

[Borror0]

Basically the same agrument as nerfs that DDO needs to improve its process practice. They need to analyze a feat, skill, class, and combat system after it is in DDO and make changes to improve it with a quicker timeline in mind then years.

That sounds nice, but that's unrealistic. I'd like them to do that too, but they have limited resources.

I certainly don't mind them going back and fix stuff that has been "broken" for so long, whether it is by being too weak, too powerful or potentially too powerful. All in all, it will lead to a better and more solid game in the long run. But, I want them to add respec options too. Otherwise that's just suicidal of them in some cases.

[maddmatt70]

That sounds nice, but that's unrealistic. I'd like them to do that too, but they have limited resources.

I certainly don't mind them going back and fix stuff that has been "broken" for so long, whether it is by being too weak, too powerful or potentially too powerful. All in all, it will lead to a better and more solid game in the long run. But, I want them to add respec options too. Otherwise that's just suicidal of them in some cases.

Yeah because you do not care about the people that make builds with this gear in mind and spend ontold time acquiring this gear only to find it gets nerfed after years. I can hardly blame them wanting to take their leave of ddo.

It is realistic to have a better model and strive to do your work better then you did in the past by just a basic change of systems that is what process improvement is all about. Look it up.

[Borror0]

Yeah because you do not care about the people that make builds with this gear in mind and spend ontold time acquiring this gear only to find it gets nerfed after years.

LOL, what? My main has two of the three items in the OP. I think I am on the list of those who built themselves around these items.

Oh, and I am in favor of respecs so I am not sure where you got the idea that I don't care about them.

It is realistic to have a better model and strive to do your work better then you did in the past by just a basic change of systems that is what process improvement is all about. Look it up.

Look, WoW changes the game very often. What you are describing is what they are doing.

Yet again, they cannot keep up with all the required balance tweaks. DDO, with its far more limited budget, won't be able to either.

[baddax]

Not sure how this would work but heard someone mention in Pnp there is or was a cap to Dodge bonus of 10 or so? Is this true and would it help DDO level the playing field?

[Borror0]

Not sure how this would work but heard someone mention in Pnp there is or was a cap to Dodge bonus of 10 or so?

Nope. That's NWN.

[baddax]

Ok but would it or could it be used to improve the AC imbalance in game?

[Borror0]

Ok but would it or could it be used to improve the AC imbalance in game?

Not really.

[Aspenor]

worrying about armor class is pretty stupid, when the range of unhittable to always hit is only 20. that's just life in Dungeons & Dragons.

[redoubt]

A couple folks mentioned that dodge adds up to too much of a % increase to no getting hit. Let us consider a few things in game. (The % assumes you have AC sufficient to be higher than the BAB of the mob and thus getting hit is dependent on the to-hit roll.)

Combat Expertise: +5 or 25%
Barksking: +5 or 25%
Shield clickie (or cookie): +4 or 20%
Heavy shield: +7 or 35%
Tower shield: +9 or 45%
Protection 5: +5 or 25%
Insight: +4 or 20%

All of these are on top of whatever armor you are wearing, which could be as high as +15 or 75%.

Some dodge I can think of:

Chattering ring: +3 or 15%
Icy: +4 or 20%
chaos guard: +2 or 10%

(Please note, that shields are the single biggest bang for the buck in terms of items that grant AC.)

Then you can consider how powerfull the spells can be:
Blur: 20%
Displacement: 50%

Now consider how these are actually put together and I'll use a high AC character (a monk) as an example:

10 base
10 dex
10 wis
3 monk
4 protection - icy
4 dodge - icy
7 armor - bracers (hey not everyone has 8s)
1 dodge - feat
----
49 all the time AC (or resurrection AC if you will.)

3 natural - bark pots
5 CE
4 insight - weapon
----
61 self buffed and situational

2 natural - ranger bark
4 bard song
4 paladin
1 haste
2 recitation
4 shield spell
----
78 raid buffed including short term buffs

The total dodge on this character:
1 halfling -- this is a racial choice and comes with the penatly to carrying, which does matter on a dex build.
1 feat -- if someone spends a feat on it, its hard to say that this is overpowered.
3 chattering
4 icy
----
9

So consider that the portion of dodge up for debate is just the 7 from Icy and the chattering ring (similar to what the OP said.) That 7 points of AC does total to 35% change in how often you get hit if you are in range, but it is less than 10% of the total AC. (And there are places where this example AC could go up further.)

(If you want to discuss CE as dodge (I think it might be) then, again, we are talking about spending a feat and taking a -5 to hit penalty. Though it does increase the dodge total to as much as 14 (including feats and race) which is more like 18% of the total AC.)

Put another way, these AC builds spend many things to get their AC:
1. Race
2. 2 of thier feats
3. -5 to hit (activate CE)
4. 3 item slots (both icy and chattering are hard to get, AC8 bracers are also hard to get but you can use 6 or 7 bracers without too much trouble.)
5. heavy investment in Dex (can't put as much in CON and STR)
6. for monks, heavy investment in Wis (can't put as much in CON and STR)

This is pretty heavy investment to be hard to hit. Considering the investment costs, I hardly consider it over powered. (Though I'm sure someone will point out a build that far exceeds this one.)

Again, my bottom line is: don't mess with the dodge bonuses already in place, please.

[Bloodhaven]

not signed

[WorldTraveler]

I'm always surprised to see nobody ever even think of the obvious when it comes to the gulf between armor wearers and robe wearers armor
class. This gulf is not seen in those levels where the game actually feels balanced, that is, levels 1 through 10. I am aware that this was the original
cap and that it was designed around this at first. But the monk splash class characters I make generally stay light armor for most of those levels until
very shortly before it anyhow as level 6+ is about the break even point given max dex and wis items, bracers, and protection items available at those
levels.

But something happens at level just after level 8 with armor and shields that does not happen to bracers. They stop going up in bonus. +5 armor
and shields make it very possible for the armor wearing non monk crowd to keep up at or around level 10. But who gets left behind in this great
"disparity" of AC ranges? It's not the monk splash or robe wearing builds, so the real issue is the armor wearing and/or shield using builds get cut
off as if the game ended at level 10 cap like it was way back at launch while the rest get armor 8 race restriced level 15 bracers and min level over
ten gear that continue to unbalance their AC as level cap raise keep happening. I see no reason that armor and shields should not carry on with
increased min level requirements to +6 mithral full plate, +7 heavy steel shield, and so on for the handful few points of differential that could combine
up to the magic "7" disparity, and then cap. After all, why should the best armor available to a master fighter of level 20 power be as weak as a
fighter half his level? Did the blacksmiths just get stupid? Is crafting a magical raiment robe to add +7 AC somehow easier than beating out a suit
of armor that does?

I say that since the real issue, the gulf of difference in AC that discourages people to even bother, is an issue with the armor wearers and shield
bearers, that this is quite clearly where to fix it. And further, that the obvious solution is to stop penalizing them instead of penalizing those
who've already spent all that time and effort to get their excellent AC. In other words, raise the bottom of the gap, don't lower the top.

[baddax]

What is the technical explination of a Dodge Bonus Vs. Dex bonus?
Shield bonus i understand (blocking)
Dex bonus i understand (moving)
Armor bonus i understand ( comes from armor)
Deflection bonus i understand (invisible generic aura that deflects slightly attacks)
Wisdom Bonus (IMO anticipation of attacks ahead of time)
Paladin Bonus vs Evil i understand. (invisable Aura of protection)
Natural (Hardening of skin or armor worn)
Dodge (Moving out of the way of an attack?)

My question Dodge and Dex bonus seem quite similar. What is the basic difference? I mean doesnt Dex bonus imply you are dodging the attack? The only thing i can think of would it would be an involuntary movement ie Someon pushing you out of the way of a car. Does that make sense?

So dex would be voluntary while dodge would be involuntary?

[Aspenor]

What is the technical explination of a Dodge Bonus Vs. Dex bonus?
Shield bonus i understand (blocking)
Dex bonus i understand (moving)
Armor bonus i understand ( comes from armor)
Deflection bonus i understand (invisible generic aura that deflects slightly attacks)
Wisdom Bonus (IMO anticipation of attacks ahead of time)
Paladin Bonus vs Evil i understand. (invisable Aura of protection)
Natural (Hardening of skin or armor worn)
Dodge (Moving out of the way of an attack?)

My question Dodge and Dex bonus seem quite similar. What is the basic difference? I mean doesnt Dex bonus imply you are dodging the attack? The only thing i can think of would it would be an involuntary movement ie Someon pushing you out of the way of a car. Does that make sense?

So dex would be voluntary while dodge would be involuntary?

They are pretty much the same, with different names in order to facilitate stacking.

The example of someone pushing you out of the way of a car is more along the lines of a deflection bonus, IMHO.