Change items with Dodge Bonus

[Delacroix21]

This has been suggested many times, and it is time we see this change enacted. Please change the following items with a Dodge bonus to Insight Bonus. These bonuses as Insight are still beneficial, and far more level appropriate.

1. Chaosguards +2 dodge --> +2 insight
2. Chattering Ring +3 dodge --> +3 insight
3. Icy Rainment +4 dodge --> +4 insight (up droprate as well)
4. Lower end-game Bosses BaB from 52 (hits an AC of 52-72) --> 45 BaB (hits an AC of 45-65) this is on NORMAL! Hard and elite are even higher.


The following items with dodge bonuses have caused AC to be way to high, and for content to be scaled to this ridiculous AC amount. The result of which has been 90% of the DDO community ignoring AC as they can not get it to a meaningful level. The combination of Icy Rainment+chattering ring wields an extra 7AC that can never truly be replaced. Everyone will benefit from this change in DDO, including those with both of these items as the monsters BaB will be lowered accordingly.



AC is WAY out of hand in DDO, and if monsters BaB increase even further in Mod 9 this will get even more ridiculous. Lets try and bring things back in line here.

[RobbinB]

Or compromise by making all item dodge bonuses non-stacking, with only the highest applying. So +4 from icy raiments or +3 from chattering or +2 from chaosguardes only.

This would allow the devs to implement dodge items as named loot in other item slots without creating a huge balance problem.

Also, having a dodge item (on DT armor) that doesn't stack when all other dodge items do stack isn't consistent, although the reason why it was done is understandable.

[Borror0]

I was working on a thread addressing AC before DDO:EU was announced.

While I didn't have the time to finish it yet but here is my part on Dodge bonuses:

The difference between a character who has a Dodge item and one who does not is quite significant and it will only grow with time. Since Dodge bonus on items are exceptional bonus, which means they don't stack with Dodge bonus of the same size, the gap will only keep on growing (once +1, +2 and +3 items are covered, +4 and +5 items will be implemented, then +6, etc.) and will reach a point that is beyond absurdity.

Also, there is a inconstancy in the ruleset where Dodge bonus items do not stack in the same way than ones from other sources. That's not desirable either as all that succeeds in doing in confusing players more than needed (and it's also a unwarranted derivation from PnP).

Therefore, what I suggest is the following:

• Change the bonus type of Dodge items into new bonus types
• Add new items granting the same bonuses but of smaller sizes
• Never implement items granting Dodge bonus ever again

To be clear, I don't mean for Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, the Dodge bonus from Dragontouched armor and Icy Raiment to share the same bonus. It would make sense for Chattering Ring and the Dodge bonus from Dragontouched armor to share the same one, since they don't stack anyway but Chaosgarde and Icy Raiment should get their own bonus (but it would not be a bad idea for these two to have the same bonus type as they are never wore together anyway).

In short:

• The Dodge bonus from Dragontouched and from Chattering Ring become new bonus type A.
• The Dodge bonus from Icy Raiment and from Chaosgarde become new bonus type B.

[RobbinB]

I was working on a thread addressing AC before DDO:EU was announced.

While I didn't have the time to finish it yet but here is my part on Dodge bonuses:

The difference between a character who has a Dodge item and one who does not is quite significant and it will only grow with time. Since Dodge bonus on items are exceptional bonus, which means they don't stack with Dodge bonus of the same size, the gap will only keep on growing (once +1, +2 and +3 items are covered, +4 and +5 items will be implemented, then +6, etc.) and will reach a point that is beyond absurdity.

Also, there is a inconstancy in the ruleset where Dodge bonus items do not stack in the same way than ones from other sources. That's not desirable either as all that succeeds in doing in confusing players more than needed (and it's also a unwarranted derivation from PnP).

Therefore, what I suggest is the following:

• Change the bonus type of Dodge items into new bonus types
• Add new items granting the same bonuses but of smaller sizes
• Never implement items granting Dodge bonus ever again

To be clear, I don't mean for Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, the Dodge bonus from Dragontouched armor and Icy Raiment to share the same bonus. It would make sense for Chattering Ring and the Dodge bonus from Dragontouched armor to share the same one, since they don't stack anyway but Chaosgarde and Icy Raiment should get their own bonus (but it would not be a bad idea for these two to have the same bonus type as they are never wore together anyway).

In short:

• The Dodge bonus from Dragontouched and from Chattering Ring become new bonus type A.
• The Dodge bonus from Icy Raiment and from Chaosgarde become new bonus type B.

Not sure why they all just shouldn't be type A, non-stacking. Simplest way to go.

I'm also not sure why new dodge items shouldn't be introduced. Let's say over the next few mods, the devs went crazy and introduced a dozen raid items each with a dodge bonus on them. Each new item doesn't have to have a higher bonus than existing items. Sure there might be a +7 dodge whatever if that's the only property on the item. But maybe there's an item with a +4 dodge bonus for example in addition to other nice properties. So the worst case AC difference is 7, but presuming everyone who care's about AC in some way would have at least one dodge item equipped, then in most cases the dodge AC discrepancy between different characters would only be a few points.

Note: this presumes all dodge bonus item were changed to be non-stacking. I agree that under the present system, new dodge bonus items would be insanity. Except maybe a +1 type B dodge bonus that does stack with everything but takes up an item slot to itself. (Reminds me of that trinket named item that came out in GH that was +1or 2 to all stats, pretty useless, but if it has just been +1 exceptional to a single stat at random, now that would have been another bloodstone type item, awesome but I don't think overpowered.)

[Borror0]

Not sure why they all just shouldn't be type A, non-stacking. Simplest way to go.

Because that's a nerf and there fore more complicated for Turbine and more frustrating for the players.

Simplest way to go.

I'm also not sure why new dodge items shouldn't be introduced.

Because Dodge means stacking, by definition. They can add as many non-Stacking A or non-stacking B as they want, though. That's fine.

Dodge bonuses should follow the same rules and not different rules depending on their origin. That's just silly.

[Philam]

This has been suggested many times, and it is time we see this change enacted. Please change the following items with a Dodge bonus to Insight Bonus. These bonuses as Insight are still beneficial, and far more level appropriate.

1. Chaosguards +2 dodge --> +2 insight
2. Chattering Ring +3 dodge --> +3 insight
3. Icy Rainment +4 dodge --> +4 insight (up droprate as well)
4. Lower end-game Bosses BaB from 52 (hits an AC of 52-72) --> 45 BaB (hits an AC of 45-65) this is on NORMAL! Hard and elite are even higher.


The following items with dodge bonuses have caused AC to be way to high, and for content to be scaled to this ridiculous AC amount. The result of which has been 90% of the DDO community ignoring AC as they can not get it to a meaningful level. The combination of Icy Rainment+chattering ring wields an extra 7AC that can never truly be replaced. Everyone will benefit from this change in DDO, including those with both of these items as the monsters BaB will be lowered accordingly.



AC is WAY out of hand in DDO, and if monsters BaB increase even further in Mod 9 this will get even more ridiculous. Lets try and bring things back in line here.

Here we go-another lets nerf something post(ie w/p)! After people have invested all the time running Titan or skellie runs-someone who sounds like they don't have those items is upset(NOW I COULD BE WAY OFF BASE-YOU MAY HAVE THEM) -so lets nerf the whole thing. Just like government-less is more! DDO has nerfed or tweaked enough items/stuff after the fact-leave well alone! And NO I don't have Rainments or Chattering rings! mY highest AC on a toon is my intimi tank who sits at 62 self buffed and thats good with me!

[Delacroix21]

Here we go-another lets nerf something post(ie w/p)! After people have invested all the time running Titan or skellie runs-someone who sounds like they don't have those items is upset(NOW I COULD BE WAY OFF BASE-YOU MAY HAVE THEM) -so lets nerf the whole thing. Just like government-less is more! DDO has nerfed or tweaked enough items/stuff after the fact-leave well alone! And NO I don't have Rainments or Chattering rings! mY highest AC on a toon is my intimi tank who sits at 62 self buffed and thats good with me!

Its not a nerf... Please read the thread where the Boss's to-hit is lowered as well. I am sorry for those who spent so much time on these items but it is necessary to fix the broken AC of DDO. Your right about being off base though... My characters together have amassed over 93 icy rainment runs (i have 2 capped monks and a capped ranger). I want this change in DDO because AC is ridiculously broken.


I do disagree with Borro here as his change will lower the max attainable AC of these builds by only 3 vs. the 7 needed. Insight bonuses are still powerful and very appropriate. This game needs less items that add to AC to be balanced.

[Comfortably]

I don't know...if someone spends the time and effort to get such a high AC, who are you to say they can't...it's not broken really, as the possible AC gets higher, so do the to hit of the mobs, it all gets balanced in the long run.

[Tanka]

I don't know...if someone spends the time and effort to get such a high AC, who are you to say they can't...it's not broken really, as the possible AC gets higher, so do the to hit of the mobs, it all gets balanced in the long run.

No, it doesn't get balanced. It means the "only gets hit sometimes" has to focus more and more on AC.

If the "only gets hit sometimes" is 60, then there's zero point to armor unless you're going for high AC.

[Borror0]

I don't know...if someone spends the time and effort to get such a high AC, who are you to say they can't...it's not broken really, as the possible AC gets higher, so do the to hit of the mobs, it all gets balanced in the long run.

Well, it's problematic if you want most builds to have more than 5% avoidance but there are better ways around that than a nerf.

[Aesop]

I don't know...if someone spends the time and effort to get such a high AC, who are you to say they can't...it's not broken really, as the possible AC gets higher, so do the to hit of the mobs, it all gets balanced in the long run.

Accept the range of AC potential is off kilter. Lets take someone wearing Icy Raiments and Chattering Ring.

+7 Dodge Bonus to AC

If a Mob can hit a character wearing those on a 19 then it can hit a character not wearing those on a 12... thats a huge difference and its only 2 items ...

Why should 2 items on a character change the chance to hit by 35%

This isn't a great explanation but the gist is that as the top end of AC increases the Mobs have to increase their to hits by even more... this makes anyone not in that top tier of AC easy pickings and thus makes idealized grouping a problem for the game... you end up with groups that say "must have x to join"

Its counter productive to the game as a whole.

I pretty much agree with Dela on this one... In fact I've said similar in a number of threads in the past.

I think Bor instead of trying to justify the slight nerf through making two sets of bonuses why not just improve the items in a different way.

Chaosguards: +2 Insight to AC and Prot vs Chaos (including the Immunity to Charm effects)

DT/Chattering Ring: +3 Insight Bonus to AC and Reflex Saves

Icy Raiments: +5 Insight Bonus to AC +4 Resistance Bonus to Saves

or something like that

Aesop

[RobbinB]

Because that's a nerf and there fore more complicated for Turbine and more frustrating for the players.

Because Dodge means stacking, by definition. They can add as many non-Stacking A or non-stacking B as they want, though. That's fine.

Dodge bonuses should follow the same rules and not different rules depending on their origin. That's just silly.

If Dodge meant stacking by definition then the DT armor tier 3 isn't a Dodge bonus. My point is Turbine through out that definition when they implimented it the way they did. What I'm saying is I don't care how they name it, the dodge on items should all be the same and not stack, unlike other types of dodge (like from feats). So call all the bonuses dodge with the subrule that you only get the highest dodge bonus from items but other dodge bonuses do stack...or come up with a new name for the dodge bonus on equipment...Whichever.

[Comfortably]

Look, every dex build with crazy AC is giving up somthing to reach that level, ie a rogue with a monk splash, very high AC and only with a radII rapier is he able do get any sort of DPS.

A s&b paladin doesn't have any DPS when compaired to the same paladin with the TWF feats.

So there is no doubt a trade off of sorts...it's just how you look at it.

[Tanka]

Look, every dex build with crazy AC is giving up somthing to reach that level, ie a rogue with a monk splash, very high AC and only with a radII rapier is he able do get any sort of DPS.

A s&b paladin doesn't have any DPS when compaired to the same paladin with the TWF feats.

So there is no doubt a trade off of sorts...it's just how you look at it.

The tradeoff should not be so jarring, I believe, is the point.

Nobody is arguing that those with AC should have amazing DPS.

We're arguing armor should have more of an impact than what the prefix/suffix (or rune) offers the character.

[Comfortably]

The tradeoff should not be so jarring, I believe, is the point.

Nobody is arguing that those with AC should have amazing DPS.

We're arguing armor should have more of an impact than what the prefix/suffix (or rune) offers the character.

If armor is the only thing you are troubled with is, then all Turbine has to do is make some sort of +4dodge for the sos armor or even make it new raid loot.

[Aesop]

Look, every dex build with crazy AC is giving up somthing to reach that level, ie a rogue with a monk splash, very high AC and only with a radII rapier is he able do get any sort of DPS.

This example doesn't hold water in the least. 19/1 Rogue/Monk gives up NOTHING and gains +2 to all saves, an extra feat, and an AC bump



A s&b paladin doesn't have any DPS when compaired to the same paladin with the TWF feats.

The problem is the Paladin with the TWF Feats and a little rearranging of the Items could have an AC nearly as high/higher than the S/B Paladin... and if planned for ahead of time could actually have a Higher AC and Evasion... Dodge Bonuses actually are leveraged in favor of twf characters. Mod 9... er EU adds the DoS PrE which gives the S/B a little more of an edge AC wise, but that still doesn't help the balance.



So there is no doubt a trade off of sorts...it's just how you look at it.

Aesop

[Delacroix21]

Look, every dex build with crazy AC is giving up somthing to reach that level, ie a rogue with a monk splash, very high AC and only with a radII rapier is he able do get any sort of DPS.

A s&b paladin doesn't have any DPS when compaired to the same paladin with the TWF feats.

So there is no doubt a trade off of sorts...it's just how you look at it.

The dps trade off is going Dex built in the first place. I suppose its okay that the pure rangers, bards, clerics, etc. etc. have a worthless AC? This change (with the -7 BaB of bosses) will make AC more meaningful and reachable to more classes. The max a pure bard could hit is=

10 base
13 dex (20base+5lvls+2halfling+3tome+6item)
1 halfling
8 bracer
5 (icy rainment +1alchemy)
8 (+5mithral heavy shield +1alchemy)
5 protection
3 chattering ring
4 inspire heroics
5 ranger barkskin
1 haste
1 dodge feat
4 insight
=
68ac
+5 pally aura
=
73

And you think thats balanced?!!! Thats even with gimped stats of maxxing Dex, and Ranger and Paladin buffs and the best AC items in the game. Requiring all that gear/stats/buffs is just plain silly to reach a meaningful AC.

[Borror0]

My point is Turbine through out that definition when they implimented it the way they did.

While that is true, that is not a reason to undo that mistake.

As it stands, we have two types of Dodge bonuses:
From items: Stack with bonuses of not the same size
From non-items: Stack with all bonuses

That's dumb and needlessly confusing. Thus, it should be changed.

That's the reasoning I came with:
1. Change current Dodge bonuses on items to a new type since stacking bonuses are problematic on items
2. Always make Dodge bonuses stack, regardless of source, to keep the rules consistant
3. Never add more Dodge bonuses on items because stacking bonuses are problematic on items

[Noctus]

/signed.


Something really has to be done to make aiming for a decent AC a viable route for more than 10% of the characters.



What Delacroix propsed is a good way this problem can be addressed.

[maddmatt70]

Well if the devs followed your suggestion they would also have to decrease mobs and boss to-hits. My guess though is the arm's race is on and next mod everybody will have to add at least +10 to their ac to experience the same conditions/level of success they have now. Really when the cap went from level 14 to 16 everybody's ac went up +10 after gear was acquired so expect more of the same.