Change items with Dodge Bonus

[redoubt]

If you look at the total AC, you fail.

What matters about Armor Class is the resulting avoidance. The AC number itself, no one care about it.

I disagree Sir!

Yes, the change in AC only affects how often you get hit if you are in the appropriate 20 point range.

If we were working in the 1-20 AC range (i.e. 1 AC is hit on a 1 and 20 AC is hit on a 20) then the availablity of 7 dodge would be poor design.

However, we are working more in a range where more like 50-70 for normal at end game (higher for hard and elite as expected.) At 70 AC where you will be hit infrequently the 7 from dodge is only 10% of the total AC you had to aquire. You had to get the other 90% from other means. Each 10% on the way is equally valuable.

If you take a way the base 10 AC you get hit 50% more often.
If you took away 10 dex AC instead of the base AC you would get hit 50% more often.
Not using CE cost you 25%.
ANY type of AC you take away would cause you to get hit more often.

Most of the arguements here seem to say that it is too hard to get into a range where AC matters. I do not agree. I can be done with a modest amount of effort. There are a number of ways to get to the 55-65 AC range and that is an AC that makes a difference. The decision to be lower, in that range or above it, is about choices you make and where you want to be in the DPS and AC continuums.

[Borror0]

Most of the arguements here seem to say that it is too hard to get into a range where AC matters. I do not agree. I can be done with a modest amount of effort.

The problem is getting an AC that matters, against the monsters that matters, while avoiding being a gimp!

[redoubt]

The problem is getting an AC that matters, against the monsters that matters, while avoiding being a gimp!

You are right, it is not easy, nor an easy button. But that's what makes it fun to build characters and play, right?

We can choose what we are good at. We can be really good at one thing and lousy at others or well rounded "jack of all trades and master of none."

The OP seems to want to make those who choose not invenst in AC just as good at AC as those who do. "Jack of all trades and master of them too". I'd prefer to not go that route. Not mad at anyone, just one opinion.

[Borror0]

You are right, it is not easy, nor an easy button. But that's what makes it fun to build characters and play, right?

The problem is not the intricacies of building a character The problem is that, unless you count monk splash, there is no way to build a character that can avoid some damage while dishing out enough DPS to be considered a DPS character.

The problem is with the difficulty of getting the gear to get the job done. the bar to tanking the bar on Normal is ridiculously high.

The OP seems to want to make those who choose not invenst in AC just as good at AC as those who do. "Jack of all trades and master of them too". I'd prefer to not go that route. Not mad at anyone, just one opinion.

While I cannot speak for the OP, I can tell you why I want to blur the avoidance difference.

As it stands, most DPS characters have 5% avoidance. Now, let's assume that an intimitank only has 50% avoidance, that's ten times less damage taken! Thus, to keep the encounter challenging for the latter, you have to deal ten times the damage than you would require for the DPS character. That's impossible, as the DPS character would get torn into shreds in a matter of seconds.

While grabbing aggro should be punitive, there is no way it should be that big.

Thus, to avoid such a situation Turbine decided to tone the damage tone which renders having high AC near pointless.

The other problem is that Armor Class cannot be used for class differentiation. In all honestly, what should differentiate a fighter from a barbarian? Unless you want to pigeonhole barbarians into THF and fighters into S&B, there is no way to differentiate them without reaching the conclusion "Why have both in the game?"

If AC matters, it can be used as a way to make classes less alike.

[Aesop]

You are right, it is not easy, nor an easy button. But that's what makes it fun to build characters and play, right?


I don't see why we should have to grind for so long. I know some people live for the grind, but for me the grind has taken away a lot of the fun of the game. That's just me though. Its not about easy button its about my relatively short attention span. I like to play the adventures not rerun the same ones over and over, but it feel like in order to be capable of running some of these quests you need to have the gear that you get out of the quest... that doesn't make sense to me.



The OP seems to want to make those who choose not invenst in AC just as good at AC as those who do. "Jack of all trades and master of them too". I'd prefer to not go that route. Not mad at anyone, just one opinion.

I disagree. Its not about making everyones AC just as good as the dedicated AC people. You've already pointed out that the things we are suggesting be changed only come out to about 10% of the AC. A paper barb will still be smacked around and rely on HP and DR and the high AC people will still "tip toe between the rain drops". However, with these items changed that will open up some slots and allow some more diversity in equiping. Right now anyone even moderately interested in AC has to sacrifice a Ring Slot and likely a Bracer Slot or Armor Slot.

My S&B character only has about a 62 AC with standard Long Duration Buffs. It could go higher but I haven't finished the dang Armor ... because its so annoying that I stopped running the quests... I still feel like I get smacked around and then I hear about people with 80 standing AC and think... HOW and WHY?

How did they get there?
Why is that level of AC necessary?

I mean if Turbine plans around the 80 ACs then what happens to the 60 ACs... it becomes just as paper as the 20 AC Barb. It invalidates builds that shouldn't be invalidated.

Maybe Mobs should have all of their Attack Bonuses dropped by 10 and Mobs start rolling D30s for to hits

I'm rambling at this point so I'll let Borror0 try to make head or tails of what I meant and then explain it to you

Aesop

[baddax]

The problem is that is scales horribly. If people think that AC is hard to scale, DR is even worse.

Simply think of how much AC a low level character has. You'll probably 20 is fairly easy to reach. Then, try to figure how much AC you can make fit in your high level DPS character. It'll probably cap out around 50, more or less, or be lower than that for most. Then, try to think of how much damage a kobold deals and compare that to the amount that an orthon deals.

Now that you have the data, make a ration of damage prevent/damage taken. It'll be absurd.

The other problem is that too much mitigation but no avoidance makes combat too predictable. We have lost critical hits. If we lose any more randomness in combat, it's only a matter of pressing Heal at the right moment (which is horribly boring and bad design).

/agree.

[baddax]

has anyone looked into the Defender of Sybris or Knight of Chalice PRe's to see the effects of those prestige classes on end game AC?

[redoubt]

The problem is not the intricacies of building a character The problem is that, unless you count monk splash, there is no way to build a character that can avoid some damage while dishing out enough DPS to be considered a DPS character. .

This is really true for any dex build. Heck, I've argued with (for and against you) about pure monk dps even. Its a trade off. My bard does great damage, but has **** for AC. That was a choice. My monk avoids damage like a champ, but doesn't have enough DPS in my book.

The problem is with the difficulty of getting the gear to get the job done. the bar to tanking the bar on Normal is ridiculously high..

I'll agree here that the icy and chattering are probably too hard to get. But, I do not think that is a reason to nerf either or both items.

While I cannot speak for the OP, I can tell you why I want to blur the avoidance difference.

As it stands, most DPS characters have 5% avoidance. Now, let's assume that an intimitank only has 50% avoidance, that's ten times less damage taken! Thus, to keep the encounter challenging for the latter, you have to deal ten times the damage than you would require for the DPS character. That's impossible, as the DPS character would get torn into shreds in a matter of seconds.
.

Monster hits character A on a 2.
Basic hit is 50 pts. Crit on 19 and 20 for 100.
2x crit = 200
17x normal hit = 850
total damage = 1050 for having no useful AC.

Monster hits character B on a 11.
2x crit = 200
7x normal hit = 350
total damage = 550

550 verses 1050 is no where near 10 times. Care to explain where you are getting that number?

Monster hits character C on a 20 and crits.
total damage = 100. This is a factor of 10. But you are now comparing characters that are only hit on a 20 to character only missed on a 1.

Scale the numbers how you want. Simply count hit or assign a single point of damage and you still come up with:

Character hit on a 2 takes 19.
Character hit on 11 takes 10. This is a factor of 2, not 10. I think you are exagerating again my friend.

[redoubt]

I disagree. Its not about making everyones AC just as good as the dedicated AC people. You've already pointed out that the things we are suggesting be changed only come out to about 10% of the AC. A paper barb will still be smacked around and rely on HP and DR and the high AC people will still "tip toe between the rain drops". However, with these items changed that will open up some slots and allow some more diversity in equiping. Right now anyone even moderately interested in AC has to sacrifice a Ring Slot and likely a Bracer Slot or Armor Slot.

I think the high AC characters should have to give up a few slots to be truely great at AC.

My S&B character only has about a 62 AC with standard Long Duration Buffs. It could go higher but I haven't finished the dang Armor ... because its so annoying that I stopped running the quests... I still feel like I get smacked around and then I hear about people with 80 standing AC and think... HOW and WHY?

How did they get there?
Why is that level of AC necessary?

I doubt many have a standing AC of 80. (Unless standing includes tons of buffs.) If they do, they have **** for DPS.

To get there they sacrifice a lot of other things in thier build, including, most likely, DPS. And, no, that level is not needed. Hitting 70-72 in VoD I am rarely hit by anything, so 80 is overkill. (/queue someone talking about VoD elite, a quest 3 levels above the cap and "elite" to say his character with 80 still gets hit.) Reply: Elite is supposed to be hard. Lol.

I mean if Turbine plans around the 80 ACs then what happens to the 60 ACs... it becomes just as paper as the 20 AC Barb. It invalidates builds that shouldn't be invalidated.

I've argued many times that the game should never be balanced around the min/max builds. And I don't mean the best number you can ever reach, but what is considered the best number that does not gimp the character while achieving it.

For example, people hit 102 AC. Why? My monk with full raid buffs and an insight weapon (a kama, but he normally uses handwraps and he loses more dps by using kamas) hits 76AC. With truely uber gear I could stretch that to 78ish. So I'll go even farther and use the number 80 you mention. Can we, at least for now, call 80 the max realistic AC?

If we can agree on that. Balance for 90%. That means that a character with 72 AC is hit only on a 20 by most mobs. 52 becomes the low end of useful AC. Now the people who can hit 80 can trade out gear and such and boost a bit when fighting really accurate mobs (just a few that let their over the top AC shine.) There would also be some mobs where even 52 AC protects more than on a 1.

Note: The 90% number may need to be adjusted, but I used it for simple math and illustration purposes.

[Delacroix21]

has anyone looked into the Defender of Sybris or Knight of Chalice PRe's to see the effects of those prestige classes on end game AC?

They do raise them a bit, more so when in these "stances," but a point Borro and I both agree on is PrC's should never be needed to "fix" a class. I am not a fan of the 2 new tanking PrCs because they seem to give the role of tanking over to only 2 classes in DDO, with the greatest benefit only to "near pure" characters. It will be difficult for any other class/PrC combo to compete tanking with these two very powerful PrCs. I also have a bad feeling content will be balanced around having these tanks as well, so better hope that pally you added is a Defender of Siberys!




P.S. I think you mean Defender of Sibery's and Stalwart Defender (not knight of the chalice)

[Borror0]

This is really true for any dex build.

Dex-builds give up:
1. Too much DPS to be a DPS character
2. The ability to change between AC and DPS, which is required for every tank

Dex-builds, with the exception of rogue, are gimped. If you deal low DPS, you have to be able to spec to DPS when the situation calls it. AC tanks are relatively weak in general (in that they help very rarely and that those encounters can be done without them) so that tank needs to be able to adapt.

I'll agree here that the icy and chattering are probably too hard to get. But, I do not think that is a reason to nerf either or both items.

To make sure, you are aware of what I want to do, right?

Just making sure.

Monster hits character A on a 2.
Basic hit is 50 pts. Crit on 19 and 20 for 100.
2x crit = 200
17x normal hit = 850
total damage = 1050 for having no useful AC.

Monster hits character B on a 11.
2x crit = 200
7x normal hit = 350
total damage = 550

550 verses 1050 is no where near 10 times.

There are a lot of errors in these:
1. I said 50% avoidance, not 45%
2. You didn't take critical hit confirmation into account
3. You didn't take Heavy Fortification into account
4. Monsters do x3 critical hits and hit on a 20 only

If we assume no Heavy Fortification:

High AC:

• Normal hit: 9.5*50= 475
• x3 critical hit: 150/2= 75
• Total damage: 550

No AC at all:

• Normal hit: 18*50= 950
• x3 critical hit: 150
• Total damage: 1050

Note: If there is no fortification at all, the numbers are more biased toward the high AC character than what the numbers show because being hit for 150 damage all of a sudden is far more threatening than being continually hit for the same damage. Thus, the low AC character's change of survival is lowered.

If we assume Heavy Fortification (which is more realistic):

High AC:

• Normal hit: 10*50= 500
• Total damage: 500

No AC at all:

• Normal hit: 19*50= 950
• Total damage: 950

However, that's for comparing the damage taken.

If we look at the damage avoided:

• High AC: 10*50= 500
• Low AC: 1*50= 50

[FluffyCalico]

I disagree. Its not about making everyones AC just as good as the dedicated AC people. You've already pointed out that the things we are suggesting be changed only come out to about 10% of the AC. A paper barb will still be smacked around and rely on HP and DR and the high AC people will still "tip toe between the rain drops". However, with these items changed that will open up some slots and allow some more diversity in equiping. Right now anyone even moderately interested in AC has to sacrifice a Ring Slot and likely a Bracer Slot or Armor Slot.

My S&B character only has about a 62 AC with standard Long Duration Buffs. It could go higher but I haven't finished the dang Armor ... because its so annoying that I stopped running the quests... I still feel like I get smacked around and then I hear about people with 80 standing AC and think... HOW and WHY?

How did they get there?
Why is that level of AC necessary?

I mean if Turbine plans around the 80 ACs then what happens to the 60 ACs... it becomes just as paper as the 20 AC Barb. It invalidates builds that shouldn't be invalidated.

Maybe Mobs should have all of their Attack Bonuses dropped by 10 and Mobs start rolling D30s for to hits

I'm rambling at this point so I'll let Borror0 try to make head or tails of what I meant and then explain it to you

Aesop

You have a point but leave the gear alone.

What we need is the following
1) Monsters to have a different attack bounes for each swing
2) Monsters to have their +hit dropped by 10 and make them roll a d35 instead

Either of these address your issue better than trying to force the gap smaller.
This would allow the useful ac range for a monster to be about 44 instead of 19.

[QuantumFX]

2) Monsters to have their +hit dropped by 10 and make them roll a d35 instead

There’s also the option of dropping the Turbine +1/+5/+10 to hit and make both mobs and PCs roll a d20 rather than depending on the base 10 for saves/AC. (The opposing d20’s is an option outlined in PHB2)

[redoubt]

To make sure, you are aware of what I want to do, right?

Just making sure.

I cannot think of a place where that would nerf anyone made. My sorc would drop a bit of AC since he wears DT, chaos guards and a chattering (don't ask, it was a long time ago. ) But his AC only helps on minions anyway.

My big issue is not un-doing all the effort folks made to build to this point and it does not appear that your idea would do that.

There are a lot of errors in these:
1. I said 50% avoidance, not 45%
2. You didn't take critical hit confirmation into account
3. You didn't take Heavy Fortification into account
4. Monsters do x3 critical hits and hit on a 20 only

If we assume no Heavy Fortification:

High AC:

• Normal hit: 9.5*50= 475
• x3 critical hit: 150/2= 75
• Total damage: 550

No AC at all:

• Normal hit: 18*50= 950
• x3 critical hit: 150
• Total damage: 1050

Note: If there is no fortification at all, the numbers are more biased toward the high AC character than what the numbers show because being hit for 150 damage all of a sudden is far more threatening than being continually hit for the same damage. Thus, the low AC character's change of survival is lowered.

If we assume Heavy Fortification (which is more realistic):

High AC:

• Normal hit: 10*50= 500
• Total damage: 500

No AC at all:

• Normal hit: 19*50= 950
• Total damage: 950

However, that's for comparing the damage taken.

If we look at the damage avoided:

• High AC: 10*50= 500
• Low AC: 1*50= 50

Any way you slice the damage and crits you will get approximatly 50% less damage with an AC that provides 50% avoidance. However, I do see your last point about damage avoided. And in that case, yes, you get a factor of 10.

Now, while you can get a factor of 10 and say, "hey look at this big number" I think you are intentionally playing with the numbers to overstate the case. I believe my way of looking at damage received as being more relevant. Its that damage taken that will kill you. Sure you may have avoided 10 times more damage than the other guy, but you still took half the damage, not a tenth.

The cleric will not notice the points of damage not taken. The cleric will notice the difference in the damage that was taken, is another way to think about it.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the debate.

[Borror0]

I believe my way of looking at damage received as being more relevant. Its that damage taken that will kill you. Sure you may have avoided 10 times more damage than the other guy, but you still took half the damage, not a tenth.

Think of how much the cleric saved.

The cleric will not notice the points of damage not taken. The cleric will notice the difference in the damage that was taken, is another way to think about it.

Fine then. Let's assume 95% avoidance!

High AC: 1*50 = 50
Low AC: 19*50 = 950

Result: 950/50 = 19 times more powerful

My point still stands. High AC is overpowered.

[baddax]

The normal order of balancing by turbine is to add to an equation. They have demonstrated this repeatedly over the last few years. Occasionally the do nurf things but more often they do not, as this often upset a large portion of the player base.
If X>Y turbine adds to Y.
IMO you will see an increase in dodge items available on items such as shields armor and Rings to allow other builds hit higher AC numbers more easily.

The simple solution is to narrow the extremes of AC to an acceptable amount. As has been pointed out this is a D20 system. This means the majority of (comparable builds) should fall no more than 15 points different or so. Anything more is what causes imbalance.

Laslty i do not see WOTC allowing anything other than a d20 as that is there signature so to speak and goes back to day 1 of PnP. If they changed From a D20 this would be grounds to remove Dungeons and Dragons from the name of DDO,IMO.

[baddax]

I am not arguing weather any of these ideas are acceptable or better than one another, just giving my opinion (of what turbine will do) based off of Past practices while balancing content.

[FluffyCalico]

Any way you slice the damage and crits you will get approximatly 50% less damage with an AC that provides 50% avoidance. However, I do see your last point about damage avoided. And in that case, yes, you get a factor of 10.

Now, while you can get a factor of 10 and say, "hey look at this big number" I think you are intentionally playing with the numbers to overstate the case. I believe my way of looking at damage received as being more relevant.

He and everyone else always do that on the forums. That is why I hate seeing math anywhere on the forms. A better example is this

Monster hits you on a 19. We raise your ac by 1 so it hits you on a 20. How much did this change how much you get hit?

Well 5% less of the attacks are hits so it could be 5% as each # on the d20 is 5%. However 1/2 of the hits are now misses so we could say you get hit 50% less from that 1 ac. Is it 5% or 50%? Well it all depends on which one better servers your point.

Very few on the forum care about weather they are right, just weather or not they can get others to believe they are right.

[Ryss]

I disagree. Its not about making everyones AC just as good as the dedicated AC people. You've already pointed out that the things we are suggesting be changed only come out to about 10% of the AC. A paper barb will still be smacked around and rely on HP and DR and the high AC people will still "tip toe between the rain drops". However, with these items changed that will open up some slots and allow some more diversity in equiping. Right now anyone even moderately interested in AC has to sacrifice a Ring Slot and likely a Bracer Slot or Armor Slot.

My S&B character only has about a 62 AC with standard Long Duration Buffs. It could go higher but I haven't finished the dang Armor ... because its so annoying that I stopped running the quests... I still feel like I get smacked around and then I hear about people with 80 standing AC and think... HOW and WHY?

How did they get there?
Why is that level of AC necessary?

I mean if Turbine plans around the 80 ACs then what happens to the 60 ACs... it becomes just as paper as the 20 AC Barb. It invalidates builds that shouldn't be invalidated.

Maybe Mobs should have all of their Attack Bonuses dropped by 10 and Mobs start rolling D30s for to hits

I'm rambling at this point so I'll let Borror0 try to make head or tails of what I meant and then explain it to you

Aesop

This post should be noted.

[Aspenor]

Think of how much the cleric saved.

Fine then. Let's assume 95% avoidance!

High AC: 1*50 = 50
Low AC: 19*50 = 950

Result: 950/50 = 19 times more powerful

My point still stands. High AC is overpowered.

yawn

if you only had any idea what you're talking about