Change items with Dodge Bonus

[Aspenor]

The point I was trying to make before was that Dodge AC result in big bonuses and make different gear harder to balance.

If the increments are in small jumps of 1-2 adding up, it's easier than if the gap is of 34 or per item.

You still have to make the grind worth the effort. To keep subs up, the grind is made intentionally long. If it were only 1 or 2 per item, the grind would need to be substantially shorter and less difficult, which in turn would lower prolonged subscriptions because many powergamers quit once they reach a level they deem "the top-most end."

Making the items less useful and keeping them very difficult to acquire would also lower subscriptions, because those that normally would grind for them will deem the game "too grindy" for negligible benefit.

In essence, the items and bonuses themselves are not the problem, and a 35% gap between the "haves" and "have-nots" makes the grind worth grinding. Making it less would make it pointless.

In other words, just leave them alone.

[RobbinB]

I3) You can keep the carrots and make people grind even when things are balanced. Example: If chattering ring were to give +1 dodge and Icy +2, people would still grind them. There is no need for blowing things out of proportion. In the small window of d20, +3 is more than enough to make a significant difference.

Exactly. If you had a +1 dodge item (eg. a belt) and you wanted to make a new better dodge type item to replace it in the new Mod 9 raid, how would you do that? Making a +2 dodge item belt is not the way. Making a +1 dodge belt with another throw on attribute like improved acid resistance or false life or stat something is more than sufficient.

(Of course, the insane dodge items already out there sort of nixed any reasonable system at this point.)

[Borror0]

If it were only 1 or 2 per item, the grind would need to be substantially shorter and less difficult, which in turn would lower prolonged subscriptions because many powergamers quit once they reach a level they deem "the top-most end."

Many small grinds or one big grind result in the same duration, if you desire so.

Instead of being short of four points of Dodge AC, you could be short of 1 of bonus A, 2 of bonus B and 2 of bonus C. The difference would be more gradual, however. Thus, making the progression less abrupt but still making the grind worthwhile (unless you don't mind being short of 5 AC but then you would have no bothered with the 4 AC grind).

In essence, the items and bonuses themselves are not the problem, and a 35% gap between the "haves" and "have-nots" makes the grind worth grinding. Making it less would make it pointless.

That's false. There is no MMO that I know that missing on two pieces of gear result in a 35% avoidance loss.

The gap does not have to be that big.

[Aspenor]

Many small grinds or one big grind result in the same duration, if you desire so.

Instead of being short of four points of Dodge AC, you could be short of 1 of bonus A, 2 of bonus B and 2 of bonus C. The difference would be more gradual, however. Thus, making the progression less abrupt but still making the grind worthwhile (unless you don't mind being short of 5 AC but then you would have no bothered with the 4 AC grind).

That's false. There is no MMO that I know that missing on two pieces of gear result in a 35% avoidance loss.

The gap does not have to be that big.

So your solution is to introduce new types of AC bonuses?

What MMO's do you know? This one, and LOTRO, and from what I can tell you barely understand this one.

[Borror0]

So your solution is to introduce new types of AC bonuses?

Did you read the first page?

[Aspenor]

Did you read the first page?

Yes, and do you have any idea how much a completely pointless waste of development time that would be? Additionally, how many more imbalancing things may come into play?

You don't make up new types of bonuses lightly.

[baddax]

So your solution is to introduce new types of AC bonuses?

What MMO's do you know? This one, and LOTRO, and from what I can tell you barely understand this one.

lol!
rep for you!

[baddax]

I understand PvP's relevance is minor but let me throw this out there.
Any time a fully raged and geared barbarian that cannot hit (almost never hit) an opponent in Pvp, there is something wrong.

[redoubt]

Actually dodge bonuses themselves are half of the problem. A combination of items that give +7 to AC is too high in a d20 system. This should be changed. The gap between haves and have-nots should not be that big.

.

That's it! Get rid of shields and definately get rid of tower shields. +7 and +9 on a SINGLE item is too high in a d20 system.

Please read my post back on page four. You will see that dodge items are actually a very small part of AC as a whole, but like armor, are required if you want to be an AC build.

Thanks.

[redoubt]

On the surface this looks like a valid argument, but its not.

1) It's 9 ac not 7. 4+3+2=9 ac
2) You give up a ring, weapon enchant (tier3), armor (which has 3 additional slots), and a bracer for a total of 3 gear slots and 4 enchant slots for 9 ac. Giving up that much makes it very very hard for these ac builds to not be total gimps compared to what they could be with non dodge gear. Is 9 ac a ton? Yep, is giving up gear 3 slots and 4 enhancement slots alot? Hell yeah it is. I would not care if they made a +1 stacking dodge for every slot. Let them have 120 ac and nothing else at all. They still will get hit on a 20 and with nothing but dodge gear that will be enough as they would fight like a decalwed cat. It's really not an issue.

I have one with chattering ring and you know what, he only puts it on if he gets drafted as VOD main tank. In any other quest hes better off without it burning that ring slot. Being worth putting on in 1 single quest in 1 single situation is hardly brokenly overpowered.

Thank you. I'm glad a few people recognize the sacrifice needed to even wear the dodge items and just how precious (no pun) the item slots really are.

+1

[redoubt]

You didn't get the argument. The comparison is from one AC build to another AC build.

Not between an AC and a DPS build.

The problem being described by Ryss, here, is that the progression per item is too steep and someone having the second best item for only two of these (Heighten Awareness IV and Chattering Ring) will be seven points bellow, which results in 35% avoidance. That's too much, for being slightly less geared up.

Help me out a second here Borro0. What do you mean by second best and the math to 35%?

Heighten Awarness IV = +4 AC from insight which is 20%
Chattering ring = +3 AC from dodge and is 15%
These together are 35%, same as icy and chattering.

I'm failing to see the issue your are finding on this one. (I'm probably not thinking of the same combo. Please let me know.)

Thanks.

[Borror0]

That's it! Get rid of shields and definately get rid of tower shields. +7 and +9 on a SINGLE item is too high in a d20 system.

The fact that +7 and +9 is supposed to be an incentive to go S&B only supports the theory.

Other than that, your argument is based on the ridiculous premise that it is not ok to have shield users be neatly superiors to non-shield users.

You will see that dodge items are actually a very small part of AC as a whole

If you look at the total AC, you fail.

What matters about Armor Class is the resulting avoidance. The AC number itself, no one care about it.

[Borror0]

Help me out a second here Borro0. What do you mean by second best and the math to 35%?

Let's assume that the best tank in the game is S&B.


The best gear he could wear contains:

• Chattering Ring
• Heighten Awareness IV

The second best alternative to these is:

• No Chattering Ring
• No Heighten Awareness IV*

Therefore, yes, the gap is of 35% avoidance.

*While there are smaller Insight bonuses, none are worth the trade offs.

[redoubt]

Although I will get abuse for it, just change items with a stacking 'dodge' bonus to an non-stacking 'enchanted Dodge bonus' and it simplifies things. It allows Dev's to add greater +'s to things without being overtly game breaking, as adding a +7 enchanted dodge bonus item would bring us close to where we are now anyway (and give all the AC nuts something new to grind for). And keeps the value of insight items too.

>

I disagree. This would devalue current items and make hi-AC easier. I could get +7 dodge on a single item instead of needing the two I must use now. I don't have numbers, but I would find it interesting to see how many people would have to drop one of their other dodge bonus items to fit in the new one. Both my AC builds are max'd out on items. I have to swap a lot, and actually take of the chatter ring on a regular basis when I need other effects. I'm pretty sure I would not be able to afford slots for both a new dodge item and the chattering ring.

As the disparity between armour wearers and the toga brigade has been mentioned I'll tout my favourite modification of PnP rules to do with armour-less AC types having stupid AC compared to your fighter types in armour is in relation to DR. Just give Armour wearers DR for their trouble, so it evens the damage over time comparison out. For DDO you would need to make Shield DR stack with Armour DR and give then give tanks a percentage of their blocking DR all the time (and yes you could have enhancements to increase this %). Note this is the rough of a proposition not even covering things like the need for Barbarian DR stack with this, or the creation of DR enchantments for armour (+1 Plate of Greater Defence).

<shuffles back to his dark dank corner to hide again>

I think better DR for armor and shield users would be cool. But check with Borro0, he's got some math worked out about it getting to big. He shot me down on this one once before, but I don't recall the details.

[redoubt]

[QUOTE=Delacroix21;2241111]

2) You give up a ring, weapon enchant (tier3), armor (which has 3 additional slots), and a bracer for a total of 3 gear slots and 4 enchant slots for 9 ac. Giving up that much makes it very very hard for these ac builds to not be total gimps compared to what they could be with non dodge gear. QUOTE]


I thought you made a good point in my favor here. Do you think that DDO players must "gimp" themselves to have a meaningful AC? I just think its sad (especially when attracting new players) that someone with a level 16 fighter and the following gear=

AC Breakdown
16 Dragontouched full plate +1 alchemy
10 Madstone shield +1 alchemy
4 from dex+fighter armory mastery 3
10 base
5 Protection item
=
45 AC That is pitiful and useless even against trash at endgame! Even with some raid gear!


Now he tries harder to get some other items.
45 Previous AC
2 chaosguards
3 chattering ring
4 insight shroud weapon
=
54 AC Meaning he has only reduced his chance to be hit by 10% on normal (normal and requires all this gear, you kidding me?!) for most endgame trash mobs and bosses. That is with the best gear in the game for what we consider the "tank" class in DDO. New players will be discouraged and upset very quickly.


But what about the plate tanks who are dpsing without a shield? Even with this same "uber" gear they are sitting at only 44 AC! It will take a ton of buffs even to get them to reduce their chance to be hit on NORMAL at ALL!

I'm sorry friend, but if you are in AC mode, drink a bark pot and turn on CE. That will add another 8 to your AC and put you at 62. That's a big difference. (If you're not willing to invest in CE, then, in my opinion, you are not an AC build and thus not relevant to the discussion at hand.) (Ranger bark will put you at 64 which is very common and haste will get you to 65. I find it hard to believe that those two buffs will not be available 90% of the time.)

thanks!

[QuantumFX]

I could live with the OPs suggestion. It makes a +4 Insight bonus easier to achieve (Since it's already on Dragontouched armor, Greensteel weapons and a triple set item) and AC builds can get some item slots back!

[baddax]

The fact that +7 and +9 is supposed to be an incentive to go S&B only supports the theory.

Other than that, your argument is based on the ridiculous premise that it is not ok to have shield users be neatly superiors to non-shield users.

If you look at the total AC, you fail.

What matters about Armor Class is the resulting avoidance. The AC number itself, no one care about it.

True today but not necessarily tomorrow.

[Aesop]

I could live with the OPs suggestion. It makes a +4 Insight bonus easier to achieve (Since it's already on Dragontouched armor, Greensteel weapons and a triple set item) and AC builds can get some item slots back!

I think I'm gonna be sick.

I actually agree with QuantumFX

At least its not Fluffy




Aesop

[Borror0]

I think better DR for armor and shield users would be cool. But check with Borro0, he's got some math worked out about it getting to big. He shot me down on this one once before, but I don't recall the details.

The problem is that is scales horribly. If people think that AC is hard to scale, DR is even worse.

Simply think of how much AC a low level character has. You'll probably 20 is fairly easy to reach. Then, try to figure how much AC you can make fit in your high level DPS character. It'll probably cap out around 50, more or less, or be lower than that for most. Then, try to think of how much damage a kobold deals and compare that to the amount that an orthon deals.

Now that you have the data, make a ration of damage prevent/damage taken. It'll be absurd.

The other problem is that too much mitigation but no avoidance makes combat too predictable. We have lost critical hits. If we lose any more randomness in combat, it's only a matter of pressing Heal at the right moment (which is horribly boring and bad design).

[Borror0]

True today but not necessarily tomorrow.

How so? What lead you to think that would change?