Change items with Dodge Bonus

[Turial]

....
My question Dodge and Dex bonus seem quite similar. What is the basic difference? I mean doesnt Dex bonus imply you are dodging the attack? The only thing i can think of would it would be an involuntary movement ie Someon pushing you out of the way of a car. Does that make sense?

So dex would be voluntary while dodge would be involuntary?

Dodge is more of supernatural or magicaly augmented movement that allows you to avoid attacks.

Dex is your natural ability to move out of the way. Some magical abilities can improve ones dexterity but those abilities cover more then simply dodging attacks, they make you nimble, better able to hide and pick locks. They have more reach in a role playing setting.

[baddax]

thanks both of those posts helped alot.

[Ryss]

Actually dodge bonuses themselves are half of the problem. A combination of items that give +7 to AC is too high in a d20 system. This should be changed. The gap between haves and have-nots should not be that big.

Having said that, the other half of the problem is even worse: The items that have dodge/insight bonuses on them and the other items and attributes that help them don't favor armored builds at all!

DEX: useless on a build that wears heavy armor or shield.
WIS when splashed monk: same as dex
AC bracers: useless on a build that wears heavy armor.
Shield spell (via wand or clicky): useless on a build that wears a shield.
Icy: useless on a build that wears any armor
Insight on weapon: useless on a build that wears a shield (because that build cannot wield 2 weapons and therefore an insight bonus will bring the DPS down to a laughable level).
Insight on robe: same as Icy.

Funny isn't it? If there were shields and heavy armors with dodge and/or insight bonuses on them instead of those items listed above, the situation would be completely reversed.

Here you go. I've fixed the problem without nerfing anything. Introduce new armors and shields with dodge and insight bonuses that bring other builds to these levels.

And a side note:
It's been stated many times in this thread and in other threads that it isn't game breaking or against the rules if/when some builds make the necessary sacrifices to attain perfect AC values (perfect meaning getting hit only on 20). The problem is when those builds achieve the perfect AC, the gap between that number and average is already too high. This thread isn't about limiting the effectiveness of perfect AC builds. This thread is about lowering them down or improving the others so that when the perfect AC builds become unhittable, other average AC builds indeed become average instead of totally worthless.

[Tomalon]

Here you go. I've fixed the problem without nerfing anything. Introduce new armors and shields with dodge and insight bonuses that bring other builds to these levels.

Can't you craft DT heavy armor with +4 insight or +3 dodge on it?????

[FluffyCalico]

A combination of items that give +7 to AC is too high in a d20 system. This should be changed. The gap between haves and have-nots should not be that big.

On the surface this looks like a valid argument, but its not.

1) It's 9 ac not 7. 4+3+2=9 ac
2) You give up a ring, weapon enchant (tier3), armor (which has 3 additional slots), and a bracer for a total of 3 gear slots and 4 enchant slots for 9 ac. Giving up that much makes it very very hard for these ac builds to not be total gimps compared to what they could be with non dodge gear. Is 9 ac a ton? Yep, is giving up gear 3 slots and 4 enhancement slots alot? Hell yeah it is. I would not care if they made a +1 stacking dodge for every slot. Let them have 120 ac and nothing else at all. They still will get hit on a 20 and with nothing but dodge gear that will be enough as they would fight like a decalwed cat. It's really not an issue.

I have one with chattering ring and you know what, he only puts it on if he gets drafted as VOD main tank. In any other quest hes better off without it burning that ring slot. Being worth putting on in 1 single quest in 1 single situation is hardly brokenly overpowered.

[Paragon]

This has been suggested many times, and it is time we see this change enacted. Please change the following items with a Dodge bonus to Insight Bonus. These bonuses as Insight are still beneficial, and far more level appropriate.

1. Chaosguards +2 dodge --> +2 insight
2. Chattering Ring +3 dodge --> +3 insight
3. Icy Rainment +4 dodge --> +4 insight (up droprate as well)
4. Lower end-game Bosses BaB from 52 (hits an AC of 52-72) --> 45 BaB (hits an AC of 45-65) this is on NORMAL! Hard and elite are even higher.


The following items with dodge bonuses have caused AC to be way to high, and for content to be scaled to this ridiculous AC amount. The result of which has been 90% of the DDO community ignoring AC as they can not get it to a meaningful level. The combination of Icy Rainment+chattering ring wields an extra 7AC that can never truly be replaced. Everyone will benefit from this change in DDO, including those with both of these items as the monsters BaB will be lowered accordingly.



AC is WAY out of hand in DDO, and if monsters BaB increase even further in Mod 9 this will get even more ridiculous. Lets try and bring things back in line here.

/not signed

It is by no means difficult to design a character that can get good ac, if that is what you want. This sort of nerf would only really be beneficial to those who use sub-par gear right now, as the best (who use raiment + chattering ring) would be at the SAME chance to be hit as before, while those who had less AC before and/or lower quality gear will see a decrease in the chance to be hit.

If you want high AC, get it. Make a character that gets high AC and grind for the items just like everyone who already has them once did. Don't ask for the devs to hand you good AC on a silver platter.

I say this as a player who DOES NOT use raiment + chattering ring. I use the chattering ring and chaosguarde. My character is not fully optimized for AC, but hits a 55-60. I've considered trying to reroll to improve it, but decided that other elements of my character make him better anyway. If I wanted to improve my AC, I would either grind for a raiment and +8 armor (plus items to further boost by dex), or reroll, not ask for nerfs to make the AC I am at more meaningful.

Make your character good yourself. Don't ask the devs to improve it for you.

[Borror0]

You give up a ring, weapon enchant (tier3), armor (which has 3 additional slots), and a bracer for a total of 3 gear slots and 4 enchant slots for 9 ac. Giving up that much makes it very very hard for these ac builds to not be total gimps compared to what they could be with non dodge gear.

You didn't get the argument. The comparison is from one AC build to another AC build.

Not between an AC and a DPS build.

The problem being described by Ryss, here, is that the progression per item is too steep and someone having the second best item for only two of these (Heighten Awareness IV and Chattering Ring) will be seven points bellow, which results in 35% avoidance. That's too much, for being slightly less geared up.

[FluffyCalico]

You didn't get the argument. The comparison is from one AC build to another AC build.

Not between an AC and a DPS build.

The problem being described by Ryss, here, is that the progression per item is too steep and someone having the second best item for only two of these (Heighten Awareness IV and Chattering Ring) will be seven points bellow, which results in 35% avoidance. That's too much, for being slightly less geared up.

If you are a real AC build this 7 ac will be more like 0% difference as AC builds have no trouble getting to where they get hit only a 20.

[Borror0]

If you are a real AC build this 7 ac will be more like 0% difference as AC builds have no trouble getting to where they get hit only a 20.

That's blatantly false. Play an AC character and say that to my face again.

[Widdle]

Dodge bonuses (and stacking bonuses) are always an issue. In PnP keeping track of the various types of bonuses is a pain. Thankfully in DDO not so much, but the items survive more (as a GM you can make mistakes giving out items and deal with it by a simple loony DC disintegrate on the offending player/item/or both)

I agree with the idea from Delacroix21's points about items and stacking. Again from the PnP view, I have always run that enchantment Dodge bonuses shouldn't stack. Ones from feats etc should otherwise you make these feats worthless.

Although I will get abuse for it, just change items with a stacking 'dodge' bonus to an non-stacking 'enchanted Dodge bonus' and it simplifies things. It allows Dev's to add greater +'s to things without being overtly game breaking, as adding a +7 enchanted dodge bonus item would bring us close to where we are now anyway (and give all the AC nuts something new to grind for). And keeps the value of insight items too.

If you want to complicate things then, again Borr0's point, having a 'speed' dodge bonus (eg haste) in addition to 'enchantment' dodge works, but then you can have as many categories of bonus as you like and more categories makes more of a problem for the Dev's keeping track of the maximum combination of items possible in the happy min/max land.

As the disparity between armour wearers and the toga brigade has been mentioned I'll tout my favourite modification of PnP rules to do with armour-less AC types having stupid AC compared to your fighter types in armour is in relation to DR. Just give Armour wearers DR for their trouble, so it evens the damage over time comparison out. For DDO you would need to make Shield DR stack with Armour DR and give then give tanks a percentage of their blocking DR all the time (and yes you could have enhancements to increase this %). Note this is the rough of a proposition not even covering things like the need for Barbarian DR stack with this, or the creation of DR enchantments for armour (+1 Plate of Greater Defence).

<shuffles back to his dark dank corner to hide again>

[FluffyCalico]

That's blatantly false. Play an AC character and say that to my face again.

I have 1 in the upper 80s and 1 in the mid 70s. Depending on how high we want to talk. By the way neither are at their max ac. Oh and you do know there are people over 100 standing ac right? Pretty sure if they drop from 102ac down to 95ac that they will be fine.

[Borror0]

I have 1 in the upper 80s and 1 in the mid 70s. Depending on how high we want to talk. By the way neither are at their max ac. Oh and you do know there are people over 100 standing ac right? Pretty sure if they drop from 102ac down to 95ac that they will be fine.

That's missing the point.

Anyhow, your argument is flawed because it has to rest on another imbalance and on stupid players.

First of all, your argument implied that all tanks have 95% avoidance. If that is the case, then there is automatically an imbalance as it's unbalancing for a class to have nineteen times more avoidance than another. If you make content challenging for one, the other is going to get torn into shreds in a matter of seconds.

Secondly, if (ie I don't agree) those very powerful items are overkill, then the players who made those characters are stupid as they could have sacrificed less points in their AC and try to gain more from other things. In other words, you are assuming that players build their character incorrectly.

It's also worthwhile to notice a self-contradiction in your position.

At first, you say that "giving up that much makes it very very hard for these ac builds to not be total gimps compared to what they could be with non dodge gear" but then chain with "if you are a real AC build this 7 ac will be more like 0% difference as AC builds have no trouble getting to where they get hit only a 20" which suggests that those items are worthless.

Which is it?

[Delacroix21]

I have 1 in the upper 80s and 1 in the mid 70s. Depending on how high we want to talk. By the way neither are at their max ac. Oh and you do know there are people over 100 standing ac right? Pretty sure if they drop from 102ac down to 95ac that they will be fine.

Could you provide a breakdown of how they are getting that AC? Is it coming from clickable boosts and the like (which isnt standing AC)? etc.

[joker965]

Just add dodge and natural armor bonus to the random loot tables?

[Aspenor]

That's missing the point.

Anyhow, your argument is flawed because it has to rest on another imbalance and on stupid players.

First of all, your argument implied that all tanks have 95% avoidance. If that is the case, then there is automatically an imbalance as it's unbalancing for a class to have nineteen times more avoidance than another. If you make content challenging for one, the other is going to get torn into shreds in a matter of seconds.

Secondly, if (ie I don't agree) those very powerful items are overkill, then the players who made those characters are stupid as they could have sacrificed less points in their AC and try to gain more from other things. In other words, you are assuming that players build their character incorrectly.

It's also worthwhile to notice a self-contradiction in your position.

At first, you say that "giving up that much makes it very very hard for these ac builds to not be total gimps compared to what they could be with non dodge gear" but then chain with "if you are a real AC build this 7 ac will be more like 0% difference as AC builds have no trouble getting to where they get hit only a 20" which suggests that those items are worthless.

Which is it?

Not sure why you're bothering to argue with fluffy, but anyway...

Players that attain 102 AC have built a gimped character. No matter how many times they argue otherwise, it's gimped. They may have defense, but they lack sorely in many important facets of character building. Using the outliers as an argument point of reference (Fluffy, not Borror, is guilty of this) is pointless.

The items are powerful, there is no arguing otherwise. Overpowered in DDO? No, they aren't, because anyone with a clue as to how to properly build a character understands that there is a breaking point where more AC is useless.

Now that I've already typed this, I'm not sure to whom I'm addressing this post, so I'll just keep blathering....

In a d20 system, there is always going to be a very small window in which a designer works where one character's AC is useless, and another's is "perfect." Quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with this fact. Claiming that a drastic disparity between the haves and have nots is a bad thing is a sign of ignorance of Turbine's goals. They want subscriptions, and generally speaking people don't quit because their AC build doesn't have a higher AC than other AC builds. They keep grinding quests and attempting to find the loot they need. This perceived "imbalance" actually is a hook for prolonging subscriptions and higher revenue.

Arguing that balance is the sole motivation for designers in an MMO is not only fallacious, it shows ignorance of the psyche of an MMO player and simple economics.

[Borror0]

They want subscriptions, and generally speaking people don't quit because their AC build doesn't have a higher AC than other AC builds.

That is not the point that I want to make.

The point I want to make is that it's too hard to balance difficulty settings around those gear because the disparity is too big. The better way to get players "hooked" is to want them to strive to better gear while still having the challenge "right". WoW accomplish this by creating to layers of gear (ie the loot gain on Hard is better than the loot from the same raid on Normal) but by balancing each difficulty level to be fun to targeted players.

[Delacroix21]

[QUOTE=FluffyCalico;2240406]
2) You give up a ring, weapon enchant (tier3), armor (which has 3 additional slots), and a bracer for a total of 3 gear slots and 4 enchant slots for 9 ac. Giving up that much makes it very very hard for these ac builds to not be total gimps compared to what they could be with non dodge gear. QUOTE]


I thought you made a good point in my favor here. Do you think that DDO players must "gimp" themselves to have a meaningful AC? I just think its sad (especially when attracting new players) that someone with a level 16 fighter and the following gear=

AC Breakdown
16 Dragontouched full plate +1 alchemy
10 Madstone shield +1 alchemy
4 from dex+fighter armory mastery 3
10 base
5 Protection item
=
45 AC That is pitiful and useless even against trash at endgame! Even with some raid gear!


Now he tries harder to get some other items.
45 Previous AC
2 chaosguards
3 chattering ring
4 insight shroud weapon
=
54 AC Meaning he has only reduced his chance to be hit by 10% on normal (normal and requires all this gear, you kidding me?!) for most endgame trash mobs and bosses. That is with the best gear in the game for what we consider the "tank" class in DDO. New players will be discouraged and upset very quickly.


But what about the plate tanks who are dpsing without a shield? Even with this same "uber" gear they are sitting at only 44 AC! It will take a ton of buffs even to get them to reduce their chance to be hit on NORMAL at ALL!

[Aspenor]

That is not the point that I want to make.

The point I want to make is that it's too hard to balance difficulty settings around those gear because the disparity is too big. The better way to get players "hooked" is to want them to strive to better gear while still having the challenge "right". WoW accomplish this by creating to layers of gear (ie the loot gain on Hard is better than the loot from the same raid on Normal) but by balancing each difficulty level correctly..

This assumes Turbine has performed inadequately in balancing difficulty settings, which I disagree with entirely. There is no evidence to back up this claim that they have failed to do so.

[Borror0]

There is no evidence to back up this claim that they have failed to do so.

Doe Eladrin admitting it count?

[Delacroix21]

This assumes Turbine has performed inadequately in balancing difficulty settings, which I disagree with entirely. There is no evidence to back up this claim that they have failed to do so.

Or my breakdown of the best gear/enhancements for a "tank" class in DDO only getting a 10% hit reduction on Normal raids? That kind of gear should be required more for Hard and Elite settings, but nope thats whats required for normal setting and according to you its "balanced".