Change items with Dodge Bonus

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I don't know...if someone spends the time and effort to get such a high AC, who are you to say they can't...it's not broken really, as the possible AC gets higher, so do the to hit of the mobs, it all gets balanced in the long run.

But that's not balance. There shouldn't be more than a 10AC spread between the average melee (excluding raged barbs) and the high AC build. That way monsters can be balanced so that the high AC build only gets hit on a 20, and the average gets hit half the time. Sucky AC builds continue to get hit all the time.

The current range is so great that you either have a "gets hit on a 1" or "gets hit on a 20" build, there is very little in between.

[Tomas_Laren]

But that's not balance. There shouldn't be more than a 10AC spread between the average melee (excluding raged barbs) and the high AC build. That way monsters can be balanced so that the high AC build only gets hit on a 20, and the average gets hit half the time. Sucky AC builds continue to get hit all the time.

The current range is so great that you either have a "gets hit on a 1" or "gets hit on a 20" build, there is very little in between.

That kind of takes the diversity out of characters a bit... if i want to build my character for a really high ac, the average joe that gets high hp and str should have close to the same ac? I think they're also adressing this with the stalwart defender PrE, you should be able to get a much better ac out of sword and board now than you did before

[Turial]

....
Basically the stacking of Dodge Type bonuses were meant to stack to a maximum of +10. That's the only thing broken about it.

People toss this around a lot but its not actually a real DnD rule.

[Aesop]

I would be more interested in all the bonus to AC that are not yet in DDO.

I am working on an idea for a few weeks but with announcement of DDO:EU I prefer to wait for the dust to settle, so the thread has more visibility.

Meanwhile, I work on the concept.

Feel free to share

DDO:EU soesn't really bother me all that much. I'll maintain my sub til they shut the doors

So if ya want you have my edress. Brains been on the fritz for a while now but maybe soemthing you write will trigger the combination lock

Aesop

[Borror0]

People toss this around a lot but its not actually a real DnD rule.

True, but that rule was present in the DDO manual (or so I heard).

So if ya want you have my edress.

I have been thinking about doing that when I was done.

[Aesop]

That kind of takes the diversity out of characters a bit... if i want to build my character for a really high ac, the average joe that gets high hp and str should have close to the same ac? I think they're also adressing this with the stalwart defender PrE, you should be able to get a much better ac out of sword and board now than you did before

close is a relative term.

in D20 if the average ac build gets hit on less than a 10 and the super ac build gets hit on a 20 balance is about right.

if on the other hand the super ac gets hit on a 20 and the average gets hit on a 1 then something is definately wrong.

a spread of 10 is about right for average to superior

Mobs really should be planned for the average build not the superior... but the problem is that they don't include enough other ways for mobs to damage the supers.

A good AC build (not uber elite but a good build) should be hit on a 15+

An average on a 10

super ac (especially those relying on short duration clickies) should be hit only on a 20

A problem with Dodge Bonuses is that they don't make sense. effectively you could have a +15 Dodge Bonus to AC from items (currently 9 though 7 is probably the more ideal for build options)... that ruins the spread right there.


On top of Dodge Bonuses there are other issues with the Damage Mitigation System as its set up.

Medium and Heavy Armor is nearly pointless as it reduces you Damage Mitigation overall. Evasion doesn't work in it and as high/higher AC is available through Cloth armor options.

Have Armor apply half its AC bonus (not the +5 Enhancement bonus to AC part but the actual base AC part) to Blocking DR.

I think 10% of blocking DR should apply as a passive bonus to DR that stacks with all other DR (except Blocking DR). Fighters Should have an Enhancement Line that improves this up to an additional 10%.

And instead of the Defender PrEs having a set DR amount have it instead improve this number some more... maybe another 5%. Then the Heavy Armor guys would have some better options for Damage Mitigation.

wow I went off track... oh well.

the point remains that Dodge AC on items is/was/and will be a bad idea. Dodge Bonuses should remain the perview of Feats Features spells and the like.

Aesop

[Drekisen]

I completely disagree with this. Most of my characters actually have a decent AC....not absurd or insanely high AC...but part of it is because of my dodge bonuses. I don't really see anything broken here. Monsters are able to bypass higher and higher ac's, and then u have all the crazy casters to whom which AC does not even matter.

When I say I have a decent AC it means I still have to stay on my toes when in melee or I will die quickly, but the AC I have helps. If dodge was changed this would no longer be the case.

[dragonofsteel2]

In reality does not matter what was a PNP rule what is not to me. What matters is they come up with the ground rules and we use them to make the best toons we can. Does this mean perfect balance of course not. Though to have perfect balance ever class would have to be the same. Changing rules in the middle of games in not good policy unless going give all the peeps using the rule chance to adjust to the new rule. The game should only change rules they have establish when so far out wack. In reality the dodge bonus stacking does not create that much in balance in the game. I can go on forever about all the in balance in the game, dwarf racial enchantments compare to elfs, sorc. vs wizards, there ton of things not balance in the game. Though I would never call for them to nerf sorc. because play a wizard, this is my choice to play that class. Although if the balance got to point were my class was obsolete I would ask for help to my class to make it playable again.

There is two ways to try to improve the balance of the game. One nerf other peeps toons or second help the left behind toon. I choose the later, because the first penalizes all they peoples efforts to create there Ideal of toon.

So in reality I will never support a nerf to anything been in game for over 1year. Taking items changing there effects after so many spent countless hours grinding them is not the way to go period. If anything I would add full plate mith. +3 resist +4 prot. +4 dodge bonus so they have the same option as non armor classes. In fact they can gain the +2 dodge from chaosgrades that none of other classes can, because they have to wear the +8Ac bracers. I believe games should look forward not back wards, I for one hate taking one step forward to go two steps back wards.

[maddmatt70]

So why is the OP and others o.k. with nerfing dodge and not nerfing the insight ac bonus. The dodge bonus is more inline with D&D rules, but the insight bonus to ac is a made up bonus. If anything that is the bonus that should be removed. I am not in agreement with removing any of these by the way.

[Borror0]

So why is the OP and others o.k. with nerfing dodge and not nerfing the insight ac bonus. The dodge bonus is more inline with D&D rules, but the insight bonus to ac is a made up bonus. If anything that is the bonus that should be removed. I am not in agreement with removing any of these by the way.

Personally, I think the OP's suggestion is an horrible one but I do think that the way Dodge items are implemented is problematic.

Think of how unbalancing do you think a +6 Dodge item would be? The difference one who wears one and one that does not would be ridiculously huge and impossible to balance. That is bound to happen, if they want to keep using Dodge bonuses to raise AC. At a point or another, you'll reach a dead end.

[Mhykke]

/not signed

[maddmatt70]

I have been long waiting for all these nerf cryers to really strike to the heart of the matter which is a change to the nerf process. All nerfs or alterations to DDO should be made in the 3-6 after something is put in the game. Why not suggest a review process of DDO for all new content within the first 3 months it was put in so a change or nerf can be made within 6 months? Asking to change or nerf something that has been in DDO for years is not good for the game.

[Borror0]

All nerfs or alterations to DDO should be made in the 3-6 after something is put in the game.

That's illogical. If WoW developers don't have the budget to achieve that themselves, how could DDO developers?

Not only that, but something an imbalance can be hidden. It'll only be uncovered by another change to the rules.

[maddmatt70]

Personally, I think the OP's suggestion is an horrible one but I do think that the way Dodge items are implemented is problematic.

Think of how unbalancing do you think a +6 Dodge item would be? The difference one who wears one and one that does not would be ridiculously huge and impossible to balance. That is bound to happen, if they want to keep using Dodge bonuses to raise AC. At a point or another, you'll reach a dead end.

We have a limited number of slots. Thus far we have been able to get away with wearing close to all gear possibly that we all would want to wear, but in the future this may no longer possible. With a +6 dodge item you might not be able to fit in your chaos guards or chattering ring or just really hurt your dps by not wearing a strength item. These are the sort of decisions/options that I would like to see in the future.

[maddmatt70]

That's illogical. If WoW developers don't have the budget to achieve that themselves, how could DDO developers?

Not only that, but something an imbalance can be hidden. It'll only be uncovered by another change to the rules.

No its not illogical its called process management. For instance if you are going to nerf w/p you should have performed that analysis in the first 3-6 months that it would be overpowered and nerf it then. The data was in ddo at the time to make that decision just like it is now.

[Borror0]

No its not illogical its called process management. For instance if you are going to nerf w/p you should have performed that analysis in the first 3-6 months that it would be overpowered and nerf it then. The data was in ddo at the time to make that decision just like it is now.

If a game with 11 million of subscribers can't do it, how can you even suggest that DDO should follow that rule?

Beside, letting the game be flawed is what is not good for the game.

[maddmatt70]

If a game with 11 million of subscribers can't do it, how can you even suggest that DDO should follow that rule?

I don't know how WOW manages its processes and I would guess neither do you, but I strongly feel DDO could manage its nerf process better. Are you trying to tell me that nerfing w/p 3 years after it had been in the game is a good business practice? They should have determined far earlier that w/p was problematic and nerf it then.

[Mhykke]

Beside, letting the game be flawed is what is not good for the game.

Flawed, according to whom?

[Borror0]

I don't know how WOW manages its processes and I would guess neither do you, but I strongly feel DDO could manage its nerf process better. Are you trying to tell me that nerfing w/p 3 years after it had been in the game is a good business practice? They should have determined far earlier that w/p was problematic and nerf it then

That's a quote from Ghostcrawler, WoW's Lead Developer:

The question was asked on this (and other issues) if it was OP before why did it take so long to nerf it?

Usually the answer is some combination of the following (and not just with regard to JC):

1) It was only slightly OP until players really started gearing up with new combinations of items that things get out of control.

2) We had a long-term plan to do something differently and decided either that plan was going to get bumped or we couldn't wait for its implementation.

3) We have a really long list of changes we want to make to WoW. Some things just take awhile to get to. More critical issues do get bumped to the top, but sometimes it still takes us a bit to agree on the right change and often bug fixes get even higher priority than design changes.

If you see something that seems off, chances are good that we do too but just haven't gotten to it yet.

[dragonofsteel2]

The following items with dodge bonuses have caused AC to be way to high, and for content to be scaled to this ridiculous AC amount. The result of which has been 90% of the DDO community ignoring AC as they can not get it to a meaningful level. The combination of Icy Rainment+chattering ring wields an extra 7AC that can never truly be replaced. Everyone will benefit from this change in DDO, including those with both of these items as the monsters BaB will be lowered accordingly.

What is the point change like this make the game easier, that all really do. If everyone can build AC that can not be hit the challenge of your game just went down a ton. I guess you forget about the pally/fighter tanks never got hit anyone could make in seconds. All the complaints from caster/barbs any other class that got hit. Just a circle you seem to want, games should look forward not backwards p. Keep nerfing because someone things this fantasy world's to hit and AC is out of wack is just insanity to me. Of course these things or out wack that whole point playing fantasy games. Do see all the complaints about the store? Really look your idea saying take 7 Ac from certain builds and lower the to hit of mobs by 20. Things have to keep having higher and higher to hit, to make the fights a challenge and more hp and do more damage. That is the point to new material is to make up a new challenge and find the new items in order to make these challenges easier.

Reality I can make a tank without the two items you place up here and tank 99% of the content out there still, so if made it easier since do not need to grind as much gear and have high AC elite would not even be a challenge for me to tank. What am going to do with long waits we have for new mods since two pieces of grind gear just went out the window? Also now have the option to add more damage to my toon kill the bosses faster since got more slots open.