Change items with Dodge Bonus

[maddmatt70]

This has been suggested many times, and it is time we see this change enacted. Please change the following items with a Dodge bonus to Insight Bonus. These bonuses as Insight are still beneficial, and far more level appropriate.

1. Chaosguards +2 dodge --> +2 insight
2. Chattering Ring +3 dodge --> +3 insight
3. Icy Rainment +4 dodge --> +4 insight (up droprate as well)
4. Lower end-game Bosses BaB from 52 (hits an AC of 52-72) --> 45 BaB (hits an AC of 45-65) this is on NORMAL! Hard and elite are even higher.


The following items with dodge bonuses have caused AC to be way to high, and for content to be scaled to this ridiculous AC amount. The result of which has been 90% of the DDO community ignoring AC as they can not get it to a meaningful level. The combination of Icy Rainment+chattering ring wields an extra 7AC that can never truly be replaced. Everyone will benefit from this change in DDO, including those with both of these items as the monsters BaB will be lowered accordingly.



AC is WAY out of hand in DDO, and if monsters BaB increase even further in Mod 9 this will get even more ridiculous. Lets try and bring things back in line here.

This actually is much morel like regular D&D then you probably care to admit. It really is not worth having a meaningful ac in D&D at the high levels unless you invest alot of gear into it. I know mobs can miss on their later attacks in D&D, but from a mathematical standpoint it is still pretty all or nothing.

[RobbinB]

While that is true, that is not a reason to undo that mistake.

As it stands, we have two types of Dodge bonuses:
From items: Stack with bonuses of not the same size

From non-items: Stack with all bonuses

That's dumb and needlessly confusing. Thus, it should be changed.

That's the reasoning I came with:
1. Change current Dodge bonuses on items to a new type since stacking bonuses are problematic on items
2. Always make Dodge bonuses stack, regardless of source, to keep the rules consistant
3. Never add more Dodge bonuses on items because stacking bonuses are problematic on items

Changing the dodge bonus on items to different types of bonus (non-stacking) is also a form of undoing mistakes.

I have no problem with renaming dodge bonuses on items and making that bonus type not stack. I think a single new bonus type is simpler, therefore better. If it's viewed as a nerf then fine, I'm assuming that newer content will be balanced more appropriately and thus it's a good nerf if you want to call it that.

I agree that stacking AC bonuses on items are a bad idea and should not be done again. (Thinking about the type of enhancements available on rings when the Titan quest was released, how insane is the chattering ring? Even a +1 dodge bonus ring would have been a useful item...but +3? Just wow...I think the dev team responsible for loot items is split into 2 teams....the first team...then the alternate team that comes in when the first team is on vacation and designs items like bloodstone, Tharnes goggles, and the chattering ring)

[Ollathir]

I don't think there's really a need to change anything to better classify the items in the game or how they are applied to bonuses. The only problem there may be with Dodge Bonuses, (and I'm strictly speaking of those that are actually classified as Dodge Type Bonuses when looking at your AC,) is the deviation from the original plan in DDO.

Originally there were 5 types of AC bonuses: Armor Enhancement, Shield Enhancement, Dodge, Natural, and Deflection. The intent was Dodge Bonuses were the only bonuses the could stack to a maximum of +10. All others the single highest modifier applied.

Currently in game the following apply to your AC:

• Base
• Size
• Dexterity Bonus- which is governed by your Armors/shield Max Dex Bonus.
• Armor Bonus - Bracers, armor, Docents
• Shield Bonus - Shield , Spell
• Deflection Bonus - Protection Items / Spells
• Natural bonus - Item, Spell
• Dodge Bonus - Alchemical upgrades (both +1 from shld and armor stack), Chaos, Chattering, DT, Icy, Feat-Uncanny Dodge Improved Uncanny Dodge, Believe though not 100 %sure about Halflings Companion being here
• Miscellaneous - Aura of Good, Bulwarks, Insight, Armor Boosts, Bard- Inspire Heroics, Cleric- Recitation
• Feat- Dodge, CE, Def, Mobility, Tempest (currently)
• Wisdom (Wis if you have at least 1 level of Monk)
• Centered (Wis if you have at least 1 level of Monk)

Basically the stacking of Dodge Type bonuses were meant to stack to a maximum of +10. That's the only thing broken about it.

[Borror0]

I think a single new bonus type is simpler, therefore better.

I would not mind all that much, for as long as that bonus is not called Dodge.

Note: I don't mind Dodge not stacking, but no items should be a Dodge bonus if Dodge does not stack. Otherwise, it ruins Inspire Heroics.

Thinking about the type of enhancements available on rings when the Titan quest was released, how insane is the chattering ring?

I have aid the same thing multiple times in the past.

The worse of that is that Graal, the developer in charge of items at the time, seems to be doing a really good job in LOTRO. Thus, I have no idea what happened at that time but he made three really powerful items and thought they were a good idea when it is obvious to me that they are a bad idea.

[FluffyCalico]

1. Chaosguards +2 dodge --> +2 insight
2. Chattering Ring +3 dodge --> +3 insight
3. Icy Rainment +4 dodge --> +4 insight (up droprate as well)

So your solution is to take 3 very sought after items and make them worthless? With +5 and +4 insight being very easy to get as a side buff on a item noone would ever use one of these 3 ever!

[Emili]

Here we go-another lets nerf something post(ie w/p)! After people have invested all the time running Titan or skellie runs-someone who sounds like they don't have those items is upset(NOW I COULD BE WAY OFF BASE-YOU MAY HAVE THEM) -so lets nerf the whole thing. Just like government-less is more! DDO has nerfed or tweaked enough items/stuff after the fact-leave well alone! And NO I don't have Rainments or Chattering rings! mY highest AC on a toon is my intimi tank who sits at 62 self buffed and thats good with me!

Actually, as things get more and more out of hand the 62 self buffed ac on that intimitank will end up being meaningless... mob as the cap increase are going to increase in to-hit anyway ... just as character BaB goes up. A guarented +9 on to-hit on a mob in an elite dungeon. The upper tiers of AC now breach 104 (a difference of 42 over yours thus mean will be about 80 ac meaningful needed at level 20 as it balances now)... your 62 AC intimitank even with introduction of even more dodge items of different values (and god knows you've the slots for it all) will be hit on a 2 by the level 20 elite mob.

[Delacroix21]

So your solution is to take 3 very sought after items and make them worthless? With +5 and +4 insight being very easy to get as a side buff on a item noone would ever use one of these 3 ever!

Or perhaps they would use them at the level they are intended for, and not FORever as they are now.

[redoubt]

The dps trade off is going Dex built in the first place. I suppose its okay that the pure rangers, bards, clerics, etc. etc. have a worthless AC? This change (with the -7 BaB of bosses) will make AC more meaningful and reachable to more classes. The max a pure bard could hit is=

10 base
13 dex (20base+5lvls+2halfling+3tome+6item)
1 halfling
8 bracer
5 (icy rainment +1alchemy)
8 (+5mithral heavy shield +1alchemy)
5 protection
3 chattering ring
4 inspire heroics
5 ranger barkskin
1 haste
1 dodge feat
4 insight
=
68ac
+5 pally aura
=
73

And you think thats balanced?!!! Thats even with gimped stats of maxxing Dex, and Ranger and Paladin buffs and the best AC items in the game. Requiring all that gear/stats/buffs is just plain silly to reach a meaningful AC.

Are you trying to say that anything less than 70AC is meaningless?

If you are, I would counter by saying that getting above 55AC makes a difference even at end game right now. 73 is freaking amazing, not just meaningful. (Unless you define meaningful as only getting hit on a 20.)

My ranger/rogue (no monk levels) hits 55-60 frequently. Combined with evasion she can be very effective and very survivable even with only 295hp. But to get this she has to use the chattering ring, insight 4 weapon, icy raements, bark and CE.

If the dodge bonuses did not stack she would be barely over 50 a lot and missing the break point.

BL: I think nerfing the dodge bonuses already in game is a bad idea.

[Aspenor]

and for everyone that has these items, and has ground the grind, you just want them to be screwed?

sorry

/not signed

[Azdraugnor]

I'll sign this. However, I think that perhaps Uncanny Dodge should be given a different bonus type than dodge, or be the sole exception to the stacking rule.

[Delacroix21]

I'll sign this. However, I think that perhaps Uncanny Dodge should be given a different bonus type than dodge, or be the sole exception to the stacking rule.

The change I call for has no effect on dodge bonus stacking. I still want dodge bonuses to stack (dodge feat, bard song, uncanny dodge, etc.). The only thing being changed is there are no longer ITEMs that can be found which posses a dodge bonus. This is intended in PnP and items with a dodge bonus should have never existed.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...gebonus&alpha=


Allot of people still arent reading the part in the post where Boss's BaB is lowered after this change, making a lower AC more meaningful. Meaning= people with this AC gear will STILL only be hit on a 20. Its tough posting on the forums as 50% of your responses are made by people who skimmed the post, and got the wrong idea.

[Borror0]

Allot of people still arent reading the part in the post where Boss's BaB is lowered after this change, making a lower AC more meaningful. Meaning= people with this AC gear will STILL only be hit on a 20. Its tough posting on the forums as 50% of your responses are made by people who skimmed the post, and got the wrong idea.

You are also missing their point: you are nerfing their gear.

Touching gear in that manner is never popular. If you don't understand that, that's fine but it does not make it false.

[Tomas_Laren]

Not sure why you're in such a hurry to change the dodge bonus as it's almost the only thing armour wearers can use that stacks. The only dodge bonus item that non armour wearers use that armoured ones don't is the icy rainments, but they get half that back with chaosgarde anyway. The insane armour classes comes more from having a dex of 42, high wisdom with a monk splash, combat expertise and all that junk

in all reality you're mostly crying about 2 points of ac out of dodge bonuses and are missing the real issue completely.

what someone needs to do is compare ac lists between the two classes to see where the big difference is, because last time i checked intimitanks used chattering ring and other dodge bonus items as well

[Aesop]

You are also missing their point: you are nerfing their gear.

Touching gear in that manner is never popular. If you don't understand that, that's fine but it does not make it false.

yup... people hate it when their gear gets nerfed.

Maybe up the bonus on the Raid gear one by 1 and having it also apply its bonus to Reflex Saves


Chattering Ring
+4 Insight Bonus to AC
+4 Insight Bonus to Reflex Saves
+13 Competance Bonus to Spot Checks
-10 Penalty to Move Silent Checks

I mean its the only non Armor or Weapon Bearing Slot that has this type of bonus so it would definatly still have value and it would add an extra bonus to Reflex Saves as well

You could have similar improvements to the other items to coincide with the Dodge nerf.

Make Chaosguards actually have Prot from Chaos on them instead of the watered down version

Icy Raiments could have Greater Ice Guard (2d6) and 40% Ice Damage Reduction built into it along with the +4 Insight Bonus to AC and the Save Bonus

Aesop

[Borror0]

Maybe up the bonus on the Raid gear one by 1 and having it also apply its bonus to Reflex Saves

Something around those lines (from a item design philosophy standpoint, not the details) but without a nerf of that extent.

Keep in mind my suggestion from the first page and then consider the following philosophy:
What if Armor Class bonuses were added to items not as if they wee reserved for tanks but as simple part of the item?

That is, IMO, the best way to break the currently clear cut division between AC and DPS builds.

[Dexxaan]

Another "Prince Albert Thread".

There's some very intelligent & Knowledgeable peeps on this thread....which makes me question these very attributes.

Cmon guys there are a lot better things to worry about than a Nerf AC Thread.

[FluffyCalico]

Or perhaps they would use them at the level they are intended for, and not FORever as they are now.

Doubtfull as any AC toon can get more than enough ac at those levels. Its not til you get near cap that you need stupid amounts of ac. In fact most don't bother trying to get these items until 16 as there is really no need for them at 1-15.

[Borror0]

Cmon guys there are a lot better things to worry about than a Nerf AC Thread.

Not sure how you've concluded this was a "Nerf AC thread".

While tanks will be nerfed, it's required (IMO) for them to be balanced around. Otherwise, developers would have to make mobs hit ten times harder.

[Aesop]

Hey Bor maybe we should look at al lthe AC bonus types and do something along the lines of a breakdown of how some of these could apply.

I mean some of these have multiple bonuses attacked as well

take
Armor Bonus and Natural Armor Bonus

You an have

Armor Bonus (Full Plate has 8)
and Enhancement Bonus to Armor (+5 Full Plate has 5)

total +13 Armor Bonus with the Enhancement

same thing with Natural Armor Bonus

Gargoyle has a Natural Armor Bonus of 4
Barkskin can give a +5 Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor

total +9 Natural Armor Bonus with Barkskin

You could in theory have Icy Raiments give a Natural Armor Bonus that stacks with Barkskin saying it adheres and binds with the flesh of the wearer


I think the problem with AC is that there is so much disparity between someone with a good AC and someone with a great AC that someone with a Good AC gets hit on a 12 when the great AC person gets hit on a 20.

Idealy the great AC should get hit on a 19 and the good ac closer to 15.

I don't know... come up with something will ya I have to go do some house work

Aesop

[Borror0]

Hey Bor maybe we should look at al lthe AC bonus types and do something along the lines of a breakdown of how some of these could apply.

I would be more interested in all the bonus to AC that are not yet in DDO.

I don't know... come up with something will ya I have to go do some house work

I am working on an idea for a few weeks but with announcement of DDO:EU I prefer to wait for the dust to settle, so the thread has more visibility.

Meanwhile, I work on the concept.