Looking for a Wiz/Rouge build

[Demoyn]

It makes it easier to spot traps along with higher will save.

Spot traps? Well at least I got the daily humor out of the way.

[Noctus]

On a warforged? Bah, who cares about will saves on a warforged?

Greater Command.
Banishment.

Spot traps? Well at least I got the daily humor out of the way.

Not everyone has memorised the location of every trap in-game.

While being Spot-less can be worked around, as long as there are fat dwarfen barbarians who like to zerg ahead a bit.....
It is definetly a nice to have skill if you plan on dealing with traps.

[Demoyn]

Greater Command.
Banishment.

Greater command sucks, but there's no way I'm putting that much of my planning into one spell that's rarely cast against me. By the time banishment will work on us we'll have boots to prevent it.

[Leyoni]

Thanks guys . WF wizzy rouge is what I was thinking about just wanted to know when to do what. Server hoping to 28pt builds gonna be alot of fun.

This would be my advice as well.

The advice on having high INT is good but don't go beyond 15 at character creation. Max INT is not needed and between level ups and class enhancements a 15 INT is enough.

Use the build points you save by giving yourself a decent DEX, CON and STR. DEX does not have to be especially high either. Again, 15 is enough. I would recommend 15, 15, 14, 15, 6, 6 for starting stats.

First level is rogue. Next several levels are wizard. Keep DD and Search maxed out. Take second level of rogue somewhere around L10 for the evasion. Optionally, take the two rogue levels immediately followed by wizard for all remaining levels.

Edit: Odd starting stats get immediate boosts from the abundance of +1 stat items. Use enhancements to raise stats when they are available. You knew that though (but I felt the need to state it for any newer player looking at the thread).

[Leyoni]

Spot traps? Well at least I got the daily humor out of the way.

Agreed. Spot is not needed in the current game. Don't waste points on WIS. You need to be able to Search and Disable. Both take INT. You should know where the traps are unless you are a new player.

Let the Ranger take Spot if they have room for it.

[Montrose]

This would be my advice as well.

The advice on having high INT is good but don't go beyond 15 at character creation. Max INT is not needed and between level ups and class enhancements a 15 INT is enough.

Use the build points you save by giving yourself a decent DEX, CON and STR. DEX does not have to be especially high either. Again, 15 is enough. I would recommend 15, 15, 14, 15, 6, 6 for starting stats.

First level is rogue. Next several levels are wizard. Keep DD and Search maxed out. Take second level of rogue somewhere around L10 for the evasion. Optionally, take the two rogue levels immediately followed by wizard for all remaining levels.

Edit: Odd starting stats get immediate boosts from the abundance of +1 stat items. Use enhancements to raise stats when they are available. You knew that though (but I felt the need to state it for any newer player looking at the thread).

Ugh on several accounts. The build you are recommending may be fine for early game content, but late-game you are going to be non-optimal. You won't be gimped, but you're going to be hating life.

Dropping INT for STR or DEX is a mistake. Nearly every offensive spell you cast will have a save, and dropping your INT lowers that save. Additionally, you'll have less spellpoints to work with on an already spellpoint-starved build.

Also, if you needed more reason to keep INT high, INT is the primary stat for disable and search, so there's syngery there.

Not only that, but a 15 STR against a 14 CON? Really? I'd prioritize CON over STR on this build by a very large degree. HP will help you all the time, STR will help you only when carrying heavy loot or in the very rare cases where you are engaged in melee combat.

The most dangerous part about this build is that it will SEEM good at the start. Your high STR will let you hit trash mobs, and nothing will save against your spells. Then you'll hit level 12, head into the vale, and realize that you it's hard to banish, mobs saves against your FoD often, and you run out of spellpoints before you even make it to the quest.

Keep you INT maxxed. A 15 INT versus an 18 INT is a 2DC difference, or 10% on a d20 system (except, of course, in cases where you hit the floor/ceiling of a roll)

INT and CON are pri-1 stats

[Leyoni]

Generally I'd agree with Montrose. Just not on a warforged.

Here is why. Warforged tend to spend a lot more time in combat than non-warforged. The playing style is different. Now, it doesn't have to be. It just seems like it is.

So, survivability and improved effectiveness in combat takes a higher priority IMO.

In addition, we are talking 28 point builds rather than 32 point builds. While the difference is only 4 build points the difference between a 15 INT and a 17 INT is 5 points. If we were talking 32 point builds I would suggest 15, 15, 13, 17, 6, 6 for stats (reverse DEX and CON if you favor HP over AC -- a lot of people do).

The DC difference is actually only 1 point. A 15 INT with +3 enhancements, +4 level ups, +6 item and +2 tome is 30 INT. A 17 INT with same items is 32 INT. An 18 INT has the potential with a +3 tome to hit 34 INT but this isn't happening until you are already running end-game content in any case (meaning you've been running at a lower DC in order to succeed already, the extra +1 to DC only makes things a bit easier).

I don't know what will happen when level cap moves to 20. But, I'm assuming another level up point and routine +3 tomes (rather than the more routine +2s that we are seeing now). I'm also assuming +7 items (and possibly +8 items) and additional +1 enhancements.

Now, I don't know any of these things for a fact -- so it is all speculative. But, another +4 to maximum INT is what this all adds up to. That means a 36 INT if the character starts with a 15 INT and a 38 if it starts with a 17 INT. Still only a 1 DC difference. And, if there are +4 tomes the 18 INT will still have a 2 DC maximum difference (but still will need to be successful in the new endgame content at the lower DC in order to find those tomes).

In other words, regardless of what comes in DDO:EU nothing changes in the comparison.

So, in a fleshie character I would recommend as Montrose has that you max, or nearly max (I still prefer 17 to 18 INT in this case) the INT. But, because of the inevitable difference in play style that goes with having a warforged caster (and because the real difference is usually going to be only 1 DC) I suggest that a 28 point character start with only 15 INT.

[Demoyn]

Warforged tend to spend a lot more time in combat than non-warforged.

Only if they're... "special".

Also, the only times you should EVER start a character with an odd stat (repeat - EVER EVER EVER EVER) is if you're a hybrid melee build with a 15 strength, or if you're an elf with a 13 con. Any other time you're just throwing away optimization for no reason.

[Noctus]

The advice on having high INT is good but don't go beyond 15 at character creation. Max INT is not needed and between level ups and class enhancements a 15 INT is enough.

While the rest of Leyoni´s advice is okay, this is a way to gimp your Wizard into reroll territory, especially if you really need every skill point you can get!

You can do many thing when spending attribute points for a Wizard, but never, ever get the idea to not max out INT. This advice gets even worse as we are talking about a Arcane Trickster build, who is extremly short on skillpoints.

Starting with a 15 INT looses you 1.5 points of DC and 1.5 skillpoints each level, forever. (half the time the difference is 2, half the time it is 1) Nothing can make up for that.


Do not do this. Max out INT at character creation!
I very seldom have to disagree so hard, as most things in character creation are degrees of preference which can vary from player to player, or are about tradeoffs, which have a latitude of judgement. But not here. This is a simple mistake.

[Leyoni]

Only if they're... "special".

Also, the only times you should EVER start a character with an odd stat (repeat - EVER EVER EVER EVER) is if you're a hybrid melee build with a 15 strength, or if you're an elf with a 13 con. Any other time you're just throwing away optimization for no reason.

But warforged are special!

They have +2 AC at creation meaning they are not nearly as squishy as fleshies. At low levels they don't even need much else to be the high AC character in the group. But, toss in a mage armor and shield spell and most starting mobs can't hit them at all.

It doesn't take long before the player figures out he runs out of mana before he runs out of mobs. Solution, melee the trash.

It is the inevitable consequence of playing warforged.

As to the never have odd stats. We'll just have to disagree on that. The fact is that as different releases came out we went thru phases where odd numbers were more efficient than even numbers. We are at such a point right now as the elaborate example I gave shows. The difference between a 15 INT and a 18 INT is 1 DC (unless you find a +3 tome) -- but it is a huge cost in build points, it is an 8 build point difference. Following your advice gives a narrow focused specialist who is gimped in every other area. Following mine gives a broader focused specialist who is only 1 DC behind yours but is able to contribute in other areas as well.

The skill points difference is negligible. With 15 INT the character has enough skill points to keep DD, Search and Concentration maxed. With 18 INT it gains 2 more skill points. I'm having trouble identifying what is so important that it just has to be in the character's skill set. The wizard gets Jump, Knock and Merefolk's Blessing -- so it isn't jump, OL or swim. Maybe UMD but with 6 CHA that is going to be equipment intensive and so, while possible, isn't really likely. Hide/Move Silently -- Shadow Walk. Pretty much anything that would otherwise be part of the skill set can be duplicated by a spell.

[Demoyn]

But warforged are special!

They have +2 AC at creation meaning they are not nearly as squishy as fleshies. At low levels they don't even need much else to be the high AC character in the group. But, toss in a mage armor and shield spell and most starting mobs can't hit them at all..

First of all, squishy refers to hit points, not armor class. Second, at most you'll have a 21 AC, which requires the same attack roll as any player who's picked up a shield and suit of full plate (even non-magical versions).

More importantly, though, at about level 3 this line of thinking becomes null and void, since you have no other way to keep up with the AC trend. I always try to plan my characters to reach their peak at level 3... it's exciting that way! (sarcasm alert)

It doesn't take long before the player figures out he runs out of mana before he runs out of mobs. Solution, melee the trash.

Better solution: get someone in your party whose role is to melee the trash (like fighter, ranger, barbarian, rogue, paladin... hell, even a monk can manage most trash).

It is the inevitable consequence of playing warforged.

No, that's the inevitable consequence of poor character planning.

As to the never have odd stats. We'll just have to disagree on that. The fact is that as different releases came out we went thru phases where odd numbers were more efficient than even numbers.

What a great reason NOT to have odd stats... so that you don't have to reroll after the next release because you didn't plan your character for DDO, you planned it for Mod 6.

We are at such a point right now as the elaborate example I gave shows. The difference between a 15 INT and a 18 INT is 1 DC (unless you find a +3 tome) -- but it is a huge cost in build points, it is an 8 build point difference. Following your advice gives a narrow focused specialist who is gimped in every other area. Following mine gives a broader focused specialist who is only 1 DC behind yours but is able to contribute in other areas as well.[/quote]

Any item you can put on your 15 int caster I can put on my 18 int caster. The end result is that at level 20 there's a 2 DC difference. That means that out of every 10 spells we cast, you fail one more than I do. That's a lot of mana to waste on failed spells.

So instead of that mana to allow you to do the job your character class was designed for, instead you can.... what? If you increased your strength you still won't be able to melee effectively at end game (unless you planned your entire character around it, which you haven't even suggested). If you put it into dex you're still going to get hit 95% of the time. If you put it into wisdom you'll succeed at a few more will saves, which won't matter because by then you'd be out of mana anyway. If you put it into charisma you'll still succeed at every item you UMD (unless you don't have UMD, at which point it becomes completely useless anyway).

The skill points difference is negligible. With 15 INT the character has enough skill points to keep DD, Search and Concentration maxed. With 18 INT it gains 2 more skill points. I'm having trouble identifying what is so important that it just has to be in the character's skill set. The wizard gets Jump, Knock and Merefolk's Blessing -- so it isn't jump, OL or swim. Maybe UMD but with 6 CHA that is going to be equipment intensive and so, while possible, isn't really likely. Hide/Move Silently -- Shadow Walk. Pretty much anything that would otherwise be part of the skill set can be duplicated by a spell.

Knock can't get quite a few locks in the game. Open lock is still a very useful skill. Tumble and balance are also very nice to have a few points in. UMD is item intensive on just about all characters, but it's still usually worth the effort (especially since you're going to have most of the buffs up anyway - greater heroism, shroud mana necklace, etc).

The bottom line is that you can disagree all you want, but it doesn't make you right. Mathematics is not based on opinion, and mathematics says that your character build is horribly inferior.

[Leyoni]

First of all, squishy refers to hit points, not armor class.

I think at this point it is pretty clear that I have one opinion and you (and others) have a different one. I also think it is pretty clear that neither of us will convince the other that they are wrong. It becomes a "he said, she said" situation where there is ongoing debate but never a conclusion.

So, we just disagree.

I'm pretty sure that the OP hasn't been hanging around waiting on the outcome of our posts. He's probably already created his new character and is already playing.

We should probably just leave it at that and just play as well.

[Demoyn]

So, we just disagree.

That would be fine, except... how can you disagree with math? It's never wrong!

[Noctus]

That would be fine, except... how can you disagree with math? It's never wrong!

Hehee! +1 rep.

[Leyoni]

That would be fine, except... how can you disagree with math? It's never wrong!

Because the game is more than just math. It is about having fun, which some of us are able to do with out having the most narrow focused mathematically efficient characters possible.

Your math is only correct when using odd numbered tomes to boost stats. Use a +1 tome and you have a 2 DC difference. Use a +3 tome and you have a 2 DC difference. Use a +2 tome and you have a 1 DC difference.

Yes, mathematically there is a % failure rate that is different and it is lower for the higher INT character than the lower INT character. But, does it make a difference?

And, what additional utility exists in a character that has much higher abilitiess in other, non-INT, areas by saving 8 build points and applying them elsewhere? How much more often does evasion succeed by having the higher DEX? How much more often does a melee attack succeed (thus saving the need to use mana) by having the higher STR?

Your math only applies to a narrowly defined function. And, IMO, is more than offset by the greater utility and survivability of a slightly less INT but significantly higher STR & DEX character.

Or, to carry this pointless discussion further, where do you get the 8 build points to boost INT to 18? Do you drop STR from 15 to 12? How about DEX from 15 to 12? That is -1 to hit and damage in melee and -1 on Reflex saving throws all to get a +2 on INT DCs. The net is zero -- you sacrifice success in other areas for success in one.

But, it is worse than this because STR also affects carrying ability and DEX also affects AC. So you carry less (meaning less vendor items looted from dungeons) and get hit more often (meaning you are squishier -- and, squishy isn't HP it is hit and squished, something that doesn't happen if your AC is high enough, which it can be well thru middle levels at which time blur and displacement and stoneskin kick in).

So, do you fiddle with the stats? Do you boost DEX by giving away yet more STR? You still end with a net zero situation.

Your POV is only valid if the character remains out of danger and relies solely on its mana pool as a way to contribute to the group's success. Only you waste so much mana in this way that you end up contributing nothing for long periods while hunting for shrines -- or you depend on clerics to recharge your mana and/or suck down mana pots.

A minor decrease in DC ability causes significantly more utility for the character, more survivability in quests, more ability to assist the group in additional areas.

So you are correct. Math doesn't lie. Only you need to work the whole equation and not just part of it.

[Demoyn]

Because the game is more than just math. It is about having fun, which some of us are able to do with out having the most narrow focused mathematically efficient characters possible.

Well yes, I'll give you that. This thread wasn't asking about fun, though, he was asking about a good build (keyword good).

Your math is only correct when using odd numbered tomes to boost stats. Use a +1 tome and you have a 2 DC difference. Use a +3 tome and you have a 2 DC difference. Use a +2 tome and you have a 1 DC difference.

No... math is correct as long as the person's work is correct. It doesn't matter tomes you use; math is always correct.

Yes, mathematically there is a % failure rate that is different and it is lower for the higher INT character than the lower INT character. But, does it make a difference?

Yes. It makes a 5% spell failure difference. They key word here is failure... kind of like your argument.

And, what additional utility exists in a character that has much higher abilitiess in other, non-INT, areas by saving 8 build points and applying them elsewhere? How much more often does evasion succeed by having the higher DEX? How much more often does a melee attack succeed (thus saving the need to use mana) by having the higher STR?

There is no additional utility to be had. A properly built wizard with evasion doesn't add his dex to reflex (he has the insightful reflex feat). A properly built wizard also doesn't make melee attacks outside of shroud portals; and if you're planning your wizard to beat on shroud portals you should also plan to solo all content because nobody will want you in their groups.

Your math only applies to a narrowly defined function. And, IMO, is more than offset by the greater utility and survivability of a slightly less INT but significantly higher STR & DEX character.

Yeah.... math is referred to as "the universal language" because it's a well known fact that it's narrow in its defined functions...

Or, to carry this pointless discussion further, where do you get the 8 build points to boost INT to 18? Do you drop STR from 15 to 12? How about DEX from 15 to 12? That is -1 to hit and damage in melee and -1 on Reflex saving throws all to get a +2 on INT DCs. The net is zero -- you sacrifice success in other areas for success in one.

No, you're sacrificing failure in other areas for success in one. If you're worried about 1 melee attack and damage on a wizard you should instead be worried about finding a game you're good at. As stated above, the difference between an 8 dex and a 32 dex on an evasion wizard is zero since you're going to take insightful reflexes (well maybe not you, but everyone with a clue will).

But, it is worse than this because STR also affects carrying ability and DEX also affects AC. So you carry less (meaning less vendor items looted from dungeons)...

That's sort of true... but with a +strength item you'll be more than fine. The only time my 8 strength wizard has ever hit carry capacity is when he got hit by ray of enfeeblement, for which I quickly drank a lesser restoration potion and felt no ill effects.

...and get hit more often (meaning you are squishier -- and, squishy isn't HP it is hit and squished, something that doesn't happen if your AC is high enough, which it can be well thru middle levels at which time blur and displacement and stoneskin kick in).

I suppose you're right. You're not squishy if you only die one out of every 20 swings (when the mobs roll natural 20s).... or even one out of every 40 swings if you're factoring in displacement... (EXTREME SARCASM ALERT!!!)

Your POV is only valid if the character remains out of danger and relies solely on its mana pool as a way to contribute to the group's success.

I surrender. I admit it... you've got me slammed here. My PoV is only valid if a wizard plays his character properly. I hope you enjoy your little victory.

Only you waste so much mana in this way that you end up contributing nothing for long periods while hunting for shrines -- or you depend on clerics to recharge your mana and/or suck down mana pots.

You know the difference between a wizard and a good wizard? It's knowing when to cast spells so that they're the most effective. This allows them to contribute throughout the entire quest.

Last week I was helping some friends out who were new to the game. They didn't have a cleric, so I logged on to my rogue 1 / wizard 5 (we were doing Gwylan's - they were level 5) and put down so much crowd control and haste that they rarely took any damage (thus no cleric needed). If I can multiclass a wizard (thus less mana), underlevel a quest, and still have enough mana to control an entire quest I'd have to consider the possibility of even an average player being capable of contributing for an entire quest... provided they had a good character build.

A minor decrease in DC ability causes significantly more utility for the character, more survivability in quests, more ability to assist the group in additional areas.

Ten percent... or even five percent is not a minor decrease in DC. That's like saying that tempest are overrated because they "only" swing 10% faster. At least in the case of a tempest the three feats they lose may be considered a utility loss, unlike losing dex or strength on a wizard.

So you are correct.

Isn't it liberating to just admit the inevitable?

Math doesn't lie.

You're on a roll with all these correct statements!

Only you need to work the whole equation and not just part of it.

I kinda did that from the first post, but thanks for the reminder.

[Leyoni]

Well yes, I'll give you that. This thread wasn't asking about fun, though, he was asking about a good build (keyword good).

<snip>

A properly built wizard with evasion doesn't add his dex to reflex (he has the insightful reflex feat). A properly built wizard also doesn't make melee attacks outside of shroud portals; and if you're planning your wizard to beat on shroud portals you should also plan to solo all content because nobody will want you in their groups.

<snip>

My PoV is only valid if a wizard plays his character properly.

This is why these exchanges are pointless.

Demoyn presumes that he knows what constitutes properly built and played -- meaning the way he insists it has to be done.

There is no way to work around the "there is only one right way, my way" POV.

My experience is different. I've observed other players who don't follow Demoyn's "plays his character properly" POV. And, on Ghallanda at least, they never are wanting for a group -- in fact, the opposite is true, their being in a group almost guarantees success.

But, there is no discussing things with people who insist that their's is the only valid POV. Which is why I started to just end this with agreeing to disagree.

Clearly Demoyn can't agree to disagree -- he has to be right (as his posts clearly show). Me, I don't need to be right because it isn't a matter of right or wrong.

DDO is a game. There are many ways to succeed in it. If there were only one "right" way it would not be D&D and, IMO, that would be a shame.

[Montrose]

This is why these exchanges are pointless.

Demoyn presumes that he knows what constitutes properly built and played -- meaning the way he insists it has to be done.

There is no way to work around the "there is only one right way, my way" POV.

My experience is different. I've observed other players who don't follow Demoyn's "plays his character properly" POV. And, on Ghallanda at least, they never are wanting for a group -- in fact, the opposite is true, their being in a group almost guarantees success.

But, there is no discussing things with people who insist that their's is the only valid POV. Which is why I started to just end this with agreeing to disagree.

Clearly Demoyn can't agree to disagree -- he has to be right (as his posts clearly show). Me, I don't need to be right because it isn't a matter of right or wrong.

DDO is a game. There are many ways to succeed in it. If there were only one "right" way it would not be D&D and, IMO, that would be a shame.

Let's just say that your PoV is "non-traditional".

Other "non-traditional" ideas include:

• Putting your money in a mattress instead of a bank
• Trusting in a supreme being to heal you rather than seeing a doctor
• Driving without a seat-belt on so that you get thrown clear of an accident instead of being trapped in a car

Many people will argue that any and all of those are good ideas. This does not make them correct.

[Demoyn]

My experience is different. I've observed other players who don't follow Demoyn's "plays his character properly" POV. And, on Ghallanda at least, they never are wanting for a group -- in fact, the opposite is true, their being in a group almost guarantees success.

Let's just put it this way... when people mention servers with histories of good PUGs, they never seem to mention Ghallanda. Could that be because we play "my PoV" on Khyber? I do believe so.