Questions on starting a Drow Sorc.

[Untfell]

Hi,

So Ireached 400 favor and would like to roll a Drow, probably a Sorc., but I have a few questions before getting started. Hopefully some of the good people here can help me out.

CONCEPT: Primarily I will be playing in groups, with very limited amounts of solo play. A lot of my groups are only two or three people.
I want my character to be useful as a nuke when needed. Big numbers are fun.

I really enjoy insta-kill spells. PK springs to mind, although I am sure there are others just as good, or better. I haven't played a Sorc. (or DDO) since level 12 was the cap., a lot has probably changed since then.

Buffs can be useful and i don't mind filling that role on if it doesn’t compromise other aspects of my character (nuke/insta-kill).

I love UMD.

Feels like I might be trying to do a little too much maybe? Well I guess that's why I am asking for advice!

STARTING STATS:
Figured,
STR 10
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 20
Correct me if I’m wrong.

ENHANCEMENTS
It’s a tough one. There are so many to pick from, and I can't be sure which ones are useful without really getting out there and testing them.
Drow Spell Resistance - is it worth it
Elf Dexterity - do two points of Dexterity matter.
Metamagic Improved <insert feat> - will the savings add up
Skill Concentration - seems wise, should I max. it?

*Spell Critical Chance
*Spell Critical Multiplier
*Spell Damage Ampification - which ones are good, and how many ranks do I need (if any)

Spell Penetration - consider it max'd
Spell Points - seems wise, should I max. it?
Spell Threat mod. - do I need it? How does the interplay of dmg/crit amplification, concentration, diplomacy, and whatever else, change its effectiveness (eg. if I drop a massive nuke will it even have any effect with regards to aggro managment?)
Stat Charisma - consider it max'd
Wand DC - will I need it
So, there the enhancements I am currently torn between. Any guidance would be appreciated. Feel free to point out good ones that I might have missed.

FEATS
/Sigh. Also tough. Only five feats to choose.
Currently leaning towards: Empower, Maximize, Extend, Spell Penetration., Greater Spell Penetration.
Also liked: Heighten, Combat Casting, Force of Personality, Toughness.
Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus seem cool , but also very hard to make room for. Unless I was going to be some kind of crazy specialist I can’t see the opportunity cost of other feats being worth it.
Mental Toughness line is for the birds imho.

SKILLS:
Concentration, Diplomacy, UMD max’d.
Then maybe one point of tumble and the rest into one of…Bluff (it’s a class skill afterall), Haggle (will it make me rich :P), Balance (is it that important at later levels), or…I dunno.

SPELLS
This is where I feel really boned. There are too many choices, and I don’t really understand the effectiveness of all the spells.
I like Haste and Web. A Resist or Protection against energy seems good. Invisibility seems useful.
Mind Fog/PK, is it just for Wizards?
Do things like Hypnotism work at higher levels without Heighten (or even with it)?
I can’t be bothered asking questions for every spell at this very moment, please, help me get a decent spell list!!

Alright, looks like a good start. Thanks to anyone that takes the time to help me out and offer some guidance. It is much appreciated.

-Sweom

[Varr]

Past max cha and max umd and empower, max, extend feats it is all flavor. Personally I would reduce int to ten and keep concentrate and umd maxed. I would then move the build pts to con or better yet to me to str for a fourteen. Grab some mith chain shirt, mith heavy shield, and acid rapier and melée a bit for fun at lower levels alternating casting and melée. You get 6 soon to be 7 feats and I like your first 5. I'd take force of personality, toughness, or enlarge as the other at level three or so and ic pierce as the 7th at eighteen. Max the fire/cold eh lines, and pen line. I like one tier of sp.

[bartcom2000]

I have a capped drow sorc. really hard to screw up. make sure you invest in UMD early and often so you can use heal scrolls at higher levels. Meta magic rocks Maximize, heighten, extend. Toughness as a feat is good. aim for upper 200's or low 300's Hit point wise at lvl 16. of course, you want to max your Charisma, but do not neglect Constitution either. try to use tomes early. Reccommend investing in +2 con and +2 Charisma as soon as you can afford it or trade for them.

[KingOfCheese]

A few recommendations:

1) boost your CON up higher (perhaps at the expense of INT, although having STR and DEX be dump stats isn't that bad either)
2) enhancements: don't sweat this too much, since they can be changed; at higher levels, you'll want spell pen maxxed; most nukers max out crit chance and multipliers and damage amp; sp boosts might be useful at lower levels, but many sorc drop them later on (more valuable things to grab and sp are plentiful at higher levels); spell threat mod is generally not useful (use diplo instead); max your charisma; wand DC (not very useful)
3) feats: you've picked the right ones (your leaning towards category); of the "also liked", I'd go with heighten first (heightened webs are powerful crowd control)
4) Skills: UMD, Concentration, Diplo of that staple ones; consider the others fun to have, but not critical--many sorcs take a few ranks in jump (to get you up to a 40 jump with the spell); or haggle (if you don't have a haggle bard); or balance (nice in a few areas, but not all that useful); or intimidate (nice to have if you are survivable)
5) spells are tough, here is my list for what it is worth (these change around a bit over time):

lvl 8: polar ray (no-save damage spell)
lvl 7: dancing ball (a lot of people don't carry this--but I still run a lot of lower level stuff to help flag people and it rocks for crowd control); finger of death
lvl 6: this is the tough one; too many good spells, not enough space; Acid Fog; Disintegrate; and Flesh to Stone (I used to carry GH, but now carry it on scrolls)
lvl 5: cloudkill; cone of cold; dismissal; teleport (I'm lazy--using scrolls for this is a good idea to open up this slot for something else--Ball Lightning, Break Enchantment; Hold Monster--lots of good stuff here)
lvl 4: dimension door; enervate; fire shield; wall of fire
lvl 3: displacement; fireball (a lot of people do not carry this); haste; protection from energy (being able to spam fire protect on yourself makes you essentially immune to all fire content in the game when combined with cold shield)
lvl 2: blur, resist energy, scorching ray (a great damage spell at every level), and web (great end-game crowd control when heightened)
lvl 1: charm person; jump, magic missle, ray of enfeeblement

[Untfell]

Awesome, thanks for the quick replies!

Taken much of what has been said onboard, aand here is what I am gonna roll tomorrow;

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Braks 
Level 16 True Neutral Drow Male
(16 Sorcerer) 
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 1490 
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 5
Will: 18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity            10                    11
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         12                    12
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             20                    27

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               0                     0
Bluff                 5                     8
Concentration         6                    24
Diplomacy             7                    17.5
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                     8
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            5                     8
Jump                 -1                    -1
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                1                     3
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                 -1                    -1
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      7                    17.5

Level 1 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I


Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery I


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I


Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II


Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II


Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation III


Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration III


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery II


Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II


Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery III


Level 14 (Sorcerer)


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration III


Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III

Although i am still very much torn on that level three feat...might take heighten instead...and 8 strength has me worried about encumberance.
Cheers,
-Sweom

[Shade]

Your original stats are fine. They actually pretty closely match my sorc, just did some 9/11s somewhere.. 12 starting con and my drow sorc has 267 HP at lvl16 - with no feats wasted on toughness (horrible feat imo)

The extra 2 con = 16 hp, or 20 later on. Not enough to make or break you.

The extra int can mean 1 more skill like jump, bluff or diplo.. All of which can make a bigger difference then HP in some cases.

Having around a 10 jump means you hit the 40 cap without an item - freeing up a precious item slot for something else, something that could well be worth over 16-20HP in terms of power.

[Shade]

Although i am still very much torn on that level three feat...might take heighten instead...and 8 strength has me worried about encumberance.
Cheers,
-Sweom

Heighten in a must if you plan to be all-around useful to a party. Web being one of the most powerful CC spells in the game, and rarely lands without heighten.
Force of personality has very littlle effect imo. Most will saves can be avoided simply by taking out the enemy before he can react, or by a freedom of movement spell or boots.

[FluffyCalico]

and 8 strength has me worried about encumberance.
Cheers,
-Sweom

Until the end game you will have plenty of room for a +str item on you. By the time you hit end game and have so much gear that you can't fit a str item on you, you will have aleady found a +str tome and eaten it.

My sorc started with either 8 or 9 str and with a +str tome and no str item it takes quite a few trash full plates in the inventory to cause an issue. Unless you are in TOR for a loot run it won't be an issue. And if you are in there just take that 10Gp full plate of garbage or +1 towershield of uselessness out of the bag and poof ready to loot lots more chests.

[Arianrhod]

Random thoughts -

Take Heighten. Your Webs & Hypnotisms will make you glad you did
Get a +str item to wear when around hobgoblin casters - they cast Ray of Enfeeblement, and being rendered helpless due to low str is just no fun.
Niac's is wonderful till about 5th level, then starts to lose its lustre. I switched it out for Jump once I got Cone of Cold.
No matter how great your PK is, you're still going to want Firewall sometimes.
Invisibility is mostly useless. Just sneak when you don't want attention, or carry potions/wands if you really want to be invisible. Don't waste a level 2 spell slot on it. (Don't get me wrong - being unseen has definite advantages. It's just that most of them can be had without the spell, and the spell tends to go away when you most want it not to).

[Trillea]

Your original stats are fine. They actually pretty closely match my sorc, just did some 9/11s somewhere.. 12 starting con and my drow sorc has 267 HP at lvl16 - with no feats wasted on toughness (horrible feat imo)

The extra 2 con = 16 hp, or 20 later on. Not enough to make or break you.

The extra int can mean 1 more skill like jump, bluff or diplo.. All of which can make a bigger difference then HP in some cases.

Having around a 10 jump means you hit the 40 cap without an item - freeing up a precious item slot for something else, something that could well be worth over 16-20HP in terms of power.

The toughness feat also opens up the racial toughness enhancements that give a drow an extra 20 HP, so at level 20 it'll be a total of 42 HP which is not insignificant.

[boldarblood]

The toughness feat also opens up the racial toughness enhancements that give a drow an extra 20 HP, so at level 20 it'll be a total of 42 HP which is not insignificant.

toughness at 16th level or under is a wasted feat. There are much better ones that make you more effective as a caster.

In no particular order, maximize, empower, extend, heighten, spell pen, greater spell pen.

At 18th level can take Toughness.

And I may even drop Extend in favor of Spell Focus Necromancy.

[Untfell]

Well, I have been busy playing on my other toon, so haven't had a chance to roll my Sorc. until now. I finalised the build, and am excited about getting out and about in Stormreach. The spell list is pretty similar to the one KingofCheese offered, I figured if wasn't happy with it or with the changes that I made, then I could just gradually swap spells out. Here's the build:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 16 Lawful Good Drow Female
(16 Sorcerer) 
Hit Points: 116
Spell Points: 1490 
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 7
Reflex: 5
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity            10                    10
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         12                    12
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             20                    27

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               0                     0
Bluff                 5                     8
Concentration         6                    25
Diplomacy             7                    17.5
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                     8
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  0                     0
Intimidate            5                     8
Jump                 -1                    -1
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         0                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                1                     3
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                 -1                    -1
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      7                    17.5

Level 1 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Spell (1): Charm Person
Spell (1): Magic Missle
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I


Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Spell (1): Ray of Enfeeblement
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery I


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (1): Jump
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Force I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Heightening I


Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Spell (2): Web
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II


Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Force I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery II


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (3): Haste
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II


Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Spell (2): Scorching Ray
Spell (3): Fireball
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II


Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Spell (4): Phantasmal Killer
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation III


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (3): Displacement
Spell (4): Wall of Fire
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements II


Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Spell (5): Hold Monster
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation IV


Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Spell (3): Protection From Energy
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Spell (6): Acid Fog
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration IV


Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Spell (5): Cloudkill
Spell (6): Disintegrate
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II


Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Spell (7): Otto's Sphere of Dancing


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Spell (5): Mind Fog
Spell (6): Flesh to Stone
Spell (7): Finger of Death
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration III


Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Spell (8): Polar Ray
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III

Thanks to everyone that took the time to give some input, it has been very helpful.

Cheers,
-Sweom

[KingOfCheese]

I should mention that at lower levels, my lvl 1 spells were a bit different. I had niac as a direct damage spell (good for the lower levels) and hypno (for crowd control). This was in place of ray of enfeeblement and charm. The reasons for these: niac puts up big numbers where magic missile does not and is useful against fire critters where scorching ray etc. are not. A lot of groups hate charm (especially zergers). Hypno is a good alternative.

[PSU93]

I don't necessarily share the opinion that Toughness is a wasted Feat. When taken with the Enhancements, it adds significant HP to a squishy character. Whether or not it's worth sacrificing the added Spell Pen or Spell Focus for HP depends on your playstyle and what gear you have to some degree.

You may want to consider taking Toughness initially and then swapping out later for one of the Metamagics or Pen/Focus if you find that the extra HP don't really help as much. Maximize, for example, isn't mana-efficient for low level spells. It works really nice with Firewall, which it looks like you'll be picking up at Level 9.

[Shade]

When taken with the Enhancements, it adds significant HP to a squishy character.

You don't need the feat to unlock the enhancements - so thats not relevant, its only 16 hp. You can instead just wear the minos legens to unlock them.

[boldarblood]

I don't necessarily share the opinion that Toughness is a wasted Feat. When taken with the Enhancements, it adds significant HP to a squishy character. Whether or not it's worth sacrificing the added Spell Pen or Spell Focus for HP depends on your playstyle and what gear you have to some degree.

You may want to consider taking Toughness initially and then swapping out later for one of the Metamagics or Pen/Focus if you find that the extra HP don't really help as much. Maximize, for example, isn't mana-efficient for low level spells. It works really nice with Firewall, which it looks like you'll be picking up at Level 9.

Do not agree with this.

Tougness only add 16 hit points as Shade was saying. Until mod 9 hits you can still get the enhancements without it. 16 hitpoints is nothing at all. Your much better served using your feats to help your spell casting.

If you had a 32 point human caster, toughness is ALOT easier to fit in. But even then you can make a case for such feats like Force of Personality or Skill Focus: UMD. But going drow, with the style of character you presented, toughness is a waste.

Maximize is always one of the first feats I take, its a boss killer.

In no particular order, at 16th level my recomendation for feats is empower, maximize, heighten, extend, spell pen, greater spell pen. There are other feats, but you mentioned you want to have instakill as an option. That makes spell pen and greater spell pen a necesicity (also max out spell pen for your enhancements).

[Trillea]

You don't need the feat to unlock the enhancements - so thats not relevant, its only 16 hp. You can instead just wear the minos legens to unlock them.

For now yes, you are 100% correct, but this will be wrong in Mod 9.

[boldarblood]

For now yes, you are 100% correct, but this will be wrong in Mod 9.

True. But then you get 20 hitpoints intead of 11, and you also get your 18th level feat which could be toughness.

[Thriand]

Do not agree with this.

Tougness only add 16 hit points as Shade was saying. Until mod 9 hits you can still get the enhancements without it. 16 hitpoints is nothing at all. Your much better served using your feats to help your spell casting.

Actually its 18 HP, and in mod 9 it'll be 22. and it unlocks 20-40 more HP through enhancements

42-62 hp is considerable, but won't make or break a build

[boldarblood]

Actually its 18 HP, and in mod 9 it'll be 22. and it unlocks 20-40 more HP through enhancements

42-62 hp is considerable, but won't make or break a build

And in mod8 you still do not need the tougness feat to unlock the toughness enhancements if you are using minos helm. At mod9 when you lose this ability add toughness as your 18th level feat.

And you are right it is 18 hitpoints. I would much rather make my spells better than use a feat for only 18 hitpoints.

I still content it is a wasted feat using toughness on a drow sorc, you are hurting your spell casting ability.