what feats does a bard really need?

[twoton]

probably not :P because I really didnt want anyones opion of the feats I have selected for my bard I just wanted to know if he would be gimped at end game not having the dc feats or mental toughness feats or spell pen feats. Which nobody ever answered. Everyone just wanted to question my build and not give me a answer about if I didnt take those feats if my bard would be gimped.

[Do'Urden]

I really wanted to post something helpful, but you seem hell bent on ignoring the solid advice provided by several posts above (the advice you asked for in the OP I would point out). Seeing as your convinced that using half your available feats on Toughness for a non-melee Bard is a good idea, then I say roll it up and have at it.

The good news for you is most people nowadays don't expect much out of Bards except songs. Few people have had the opportunity to play with a really great one.

[twoton]

I know isnt it great sit back make bank and have a great haggle to sell off junk and all you have to do is play some songs :P why do you think Im making it LOL

[Do'Urden]

I know isnt it great sit back make bank and have a great haggle to sell off junk and all you have to do is play some songs :P why do you think Im making it LOL

Congratulations on your upcoming journey to join the swelling ranks of mediocre Bards that are prevalent on every server. As long as you sing songs on cue like a trained parrot, it's likely nobody will call you a gimp...to your face.

[macros123]

Like I said to you earlier, when you are talking about feats, go ahead and give it a try. If you don't like it get some dragonshards and swap them out. Not like it is a permanent choice. You bard will not be gimp, but will just have some strengths in a different area from what most people expect. That those strengths may or may not be as usefull as some other choices will always be up for debate.

If you want some advice on something which others have more experience than you, then you should be prepared to listen to what they have to say, but if you have a "vision" of what you want your character to be, then go ahead and make it that way.

[Soldarm]

Gimped!!..

..Burp!!....

[twoton]

Like I said to you earlier, when you are talking about feats, go ahead and give it a try. If you don't like it get some dragonshards and swap them out. Not like it is a permanent choice. You bard will not be gimp, but will just have some strengths in a different area from what most people expect. That those strengths may or may not be as usefull as some other choices will always be up for debate.

If you want some advice on something which others have more experience than you, then you should be prepared to listen to what they have to say, but if you have a "vision" of what you want your character to be, then go ahead and make it that way.

Very true macros. Yes I have a vision for my bard. Yes I will probably take him spellsinger when the lvl cap goes up. I just dont know why they couldnt just give me a stright answer right off the bat instead wanted to try and put my build in a cookie cutter mold and if it wasnt then its ****.

Its true I can just change out the feats if its not working out. I just dont understand why you ask people one thing they just choose to make your build like everyone elses.

A good example of this is a cleric I know has like close to 500 hp but not the most mana a cleric can have but he never has to worry about his cleric dieing in a battle and can focus on everyone else.

[Thrudh]

I was planning on building a high hp bard but I wont be able to take spell focus feats or spell pen feats or maxamize or empower or heighten. I also will not have room to take mental toughness or improved mental toughness. Will missing any of these feats gimp my bard?

I just dont know why they couldnt just give me a stright answer right off the bat instead wanted to try and put my build in a cookie cutter mold and if it wasnt then its ****.

They couldn't give you a good answer to your original question without knowing what kind of bard you were building...

A warchanter fighting bard would not be gimped by skipping those feats...

A crowd-control, healing bard will be gimped by skipping those feats.

You have since indicated that you want a crowd-control, healing bard. You will be gimped by taking a bunch of toughness feats instead of crowd-control or healing feats.

Makes sense, right?

With a decent to high CHA, you will still do okay at crowd control in the early-to-mid game. As soon as monsters start getting Spell Resistance (end-game), your crowd control will be worthless without the spell pen feats. Your healing will not be very good throughout the game without empower healing or maximize...

You could make up for this by contributing to melee and with extra powerful songs boosts (warchanter). However, you won't have that either...

So your songs will just be okay, your crowd control will be decent until end-game, and your healing will never be very good... Your UMD will be good, so I guess you can spot heal with heal scrolls, but that's about it.

No one wants to force you into cooke-cutter... There's lots of different ways to build a spell-singer or warchanter, or even virtuoso. To completely skip those powerful Prestige Enhancements does gimp your character somewhat.

Good luck to you.

[twoton]

They couldn't give you a good answer to your original question without knowing what kind of bard you were building...

A warchanter fighting bard would not be gimped by skipping those feats...

A crowd-control, healing bard will be gimped by skipping those feats.

You have since indicated that you want a crowd-control, healing bard. You will be gimped by taking a bunch of toughness feats instead of crowd-control or healing feats.

Makes sense, right?

With a decent to high CHA, you will still do okay at crowd control in the early-to-mid game. As soon as monsters start getting Spell Resistance (end-game), your crowd control will be worthless without the spell pen feats. Your healing will not be very good throughout the game without empower healing or maximize...

You could make up for this by contributing to melee and with extra powerful songs boosts (warchanter). However, you won't have that either...

So your songs will just be okay, your crowd control will be decent until end-game, and your healing will never be very good... Your UMD will be good, so I guess you can spot heal with heal scrolls, but that's about it.

No one wants to force you into cooke-cutter... There's lots of different ways to build a spell-singer or warchanter, or even virtuoso. To completely skip those powerful Prestige Enhancements does gimp your character somewhat.

Good luck to you.

so if I give up skill focus umd at 12 for heighten at 12 for spellsinger? That way I keep toughness feats but lose out on umd which I will still have a unbuffed 33 umd.

[Thrudh]

so if I give up skill focus umd at 12 for heighten at 12 for spellsinger? That way I keep toughness feats but lose out on umd which I will still have a unbuffed 33 umd.

Heighten (increasing Spell DC) isn't the problem... Spell Resistance is going to kill you at the end-game..

I would take Maximize actually... That lets you get Spell-Singer (note that one of the benefits of Spell-singer is +2 to UMD, so you really only lose 1 point of UMD), and Maximize allows you to heal pretty well...

You still won't do much crowd-control at end game, but your spell singer songs will be much appreciated and you'll be a decent backup healer.

[Samadhi]

Umm... But if... *Smacks head against desk for a minute until the pain stops*

Ok, so after the first Toughness feat, taking just one more is not worth it. But taking two or three more is worth it? That's like saying $10 is too expensive for one cup of coffee, but $20 for two cups is a better deal. I don't think I can argue with you on this subject anymore.

I disagree. If we are talking about reaching a threshold where "do I have enough HP to not get oneshot," then the difference between 1 toughness and 3 might be very large.

[boldarblood]

Don't like the build and the feats are especially bad. It's a mediocre build at best.

You can make a much better build by embracing what has been said in this thread.

If you are looking to be a good buff build for bards, this build is not it. Your better served with either warchanter (preferably) or spellsinger. The benefits of both far outweigh any negative due to loss of said feats from above.

[Freeman]

I disagree. If we are talking about reaching a threshold where "do I have enough HP to not get oneshot," then the difference between 1 toughness and 3 might be very large.

Unfortunately, that wasn't what we were talking about. In the example you gave, both the 2nd and 3rd Toughness feats are equally valuable, since the goal could not be reached without either one. The statement I was responding to was this:

I know how to work toughness feats. most people only take 1 but if you ever take more than 1 take more than just 2. multi toughness feats work great in either 3 or 4.

Are you agreeing with him that players shouldn't take a second Toughness feat unless they can take 3 or 4? If you have a specific threshold that you need to reach and Toughness is the only way to do it, then take as many as you want. However, in the case of the bard being discussed, they are not needed to reach the goal that was specified.

[Elaril]

ok so this is what I am making neither a warchanter or spellsinger.

feats I am taking
force personality
extend
toughness x3
quicken
skill focus umd

ending stats should be
20 str
24 con
32 cha

should have with +3 umd item 36 unbuffed umd
and should have around 347 hit points

Whats I want to know is not taking any other feats will this gimp my bard? I thought it was pretty solid but never built a bard to cap before.

The toughness feats are ok, but you should get rid of FOP, and quicken and pick up heighten (for spellsinger) and another toughness feat :-P

[Zenako]

Back to your question...will that build be considered a gimped bard at cap....yes.

You seem fixated on taking toughness feats for HP, while willing to bypass feats that will more seriously affect your ability to contribute to quests. You are in fact MORE likely to die by taking those feats due to your group be less able to defeat whatever mobs you confront, leaving your semi buffing self with its extra 36 HP as the buffer between wipe and victory.

Hopefully you are aware that 36 HP is only a fraction of the damage a single hit is likely to dish out to you at cap.

The getting over 200 is a kinda benchmark for pure casters/buffers.

Over 350 for melees is a good target.

Some of this is due to the quanta of damage being dished out. Incoming spells doing 150 points. Casters survive one/two (depending on protections), melees survive 2/3 depending on protections. (Ignoring evasion here...) Would having 347 vs 311 your own math) make much of difference. Not on too many occasions.

More Hit points are good.

Just like more Spell points are good.

More DPS is good.

More AC is good (if enough to matter).

It is just that there is a tradeoff being made, and based on the feedback from many who have capped bards, we do not seem to feel that the tradeoff you are making is a wise one.

[rover223]

Ive never played a bard before but I think three toughness feats on anyone is a bad idea. At the mod 9 cap it is only an extra 22 hp per feat.

MT instead of toughness will get you 2-3 more heal spells hitting for 50-100 depending on your other feats and enhancements, which itself adds more durability than toughness. Also you wont be doing much damage without power attack or TWF so you will take more damage as you cant kill any mobs.

Making a durable bard i=s one thing, but gimping everything else to do it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I didn't mean that to be harsh, sorry if it sounded that way.

Toughness allows for racial enhancement toughness and if you splash fighter, one level of fighter. A dwarf with a fighter splash, can get 40 hp plus the tougness feat hp. That's 62 hp by your math. My warchanter has 378 hp and only has one toughness feat. In the shroud he's got to watch himself, just not the ac to stand in with the devil but in regular quests he's like the 3rd or 4th fighter in the group, and the whole party is doing more damage with his songs and rages. Toughness is very useful for any bard that is in the melee often.

[Riorik]

Why not go with Comf's post?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=183907

The build I went with was different.
Human (eventual Bard20)
Str17 all stat points +2 tome +6 item = 30
Dex15 (+2 tome - required for ITWF/GTWF)
Con14 +2 tome +6 item =22
Int8 (+2 tome - wanted for extra skill points
Wis8 +2 tome
Cha13 +2 tome

H1: Extend
CL1: Toughness
CL3: WF: Slashing
CL6: Power Attack
CL9: TWF
CL12: ITWF
CL15: GTWF
CL18: ????

Without greensteel equipment and items I generally had in the bank, I was projecting mid-300's HP on a Warchanter build - strong 2nd tier melee with 50+ Haggle & 35+ UMD all at Bard16 (not Bard20). Stats would likely end up a bit higher and the feats could be done in a different order, it's just a list.

[Bilger]

probably not :P because I really didnt want anyones opion of the feats I have selected for my bard I just wanted to know if he would be gimped at end game not having the dc feats or mental toughness feats or spell pen feats. Which nobody ever answered. Everyone just wanted to question my build and not give me a answer about if I didnt take those feats if my bard would be gimped.

Yes he will be gimpd for CC heighten is a must and at end game you will want as high as DC as can get.
Focuses are very useful and not going spellsinger gimps you more.
Lower SP is not big if your smart in how ya use sp.
Too many toughness IMO have 4 capped Bards and only one who is my cc/heal bard has 299 hp drow no toughness feats. Rest other 2 are a 360 1 toughness human and 440 1 toughness Dwarf.
No need for more than 1, last is bard/rogue and don't really consider a bard more rogue than anything atm in next mod that will change still has 300+hp no toughness.
IMO what ya have planned will gimp you for CC and healing with no empower healing or maximize, no focuses, noheighten, and too many toughness you will be near worthless in end game.

[Uska]

well I really dont have the feats to waste. to get either one of those. About the only one I could really end up tossing out but would like to have is skill focus umd. I mean it is a +3 to umd would hate to lose it. Is it really that important to be a warchanter or spellsinger? I was reading about both and neither really looked worth it. Unless you can explain why I should go against having a umd that I never miss on unless I roll a 1 vs. a bard specality class I will hear ya out.

Yes you will be much happier as either a warchanter or spellsinger but those take very differnt routes, I have spellsinger and I am very happy with her I went max cha so I am not to melee centered but I can get in there and do a little with effect weapons or power 5 I dont want to do to much damage as I dont want aggro, and as other have said 3 toughness feats are a waste at lvl 20 the extra 2 are only 44 hp drop one and take mental toughness so you can take spell singer or drop two and get the feats needed for warchanter.

[Uska]

no my bard is not going to melee at high lvls and also for droping toughness feats thats a no go. The whole point is to have over 340 hp. Honstly how can you say more than 1 feat of toughness is a waste thats like saying getting to wear a improved false life and greater false life (if they stacked) is a waste. The point is you wouldnt say that.

the extra hp you get is about 1 hit from end level content.