Halfling 12/6/2 - Monk 2 vs. Rogue 2

[Arcannon]

Hi all I've been away for a few years (stopped when level cap was 11) and I'm looking to get back into DDO, casually with a duoing buddy at first, then maybe raiding later once I've discovered all the new content the old fashioned way (non zerging).

My question is this. If I go with a 12ftr/6rngr/2?? build will I be better off with monk or rogue for the 2?

Monk gives great ac bonuses along with feats and such, but I've read they may be nerfing the monk AC for non-pure monks. I want this guy to last so would like some input if anyone on the test server knows this will happen.

Rogue would give me open and disable so me and my buddy can enjoy the most of every new quest, but I'm worried I won't have a viable armor class if I decide to keep this character and raid with him later.

Also I don't have access to 32 point builds so I'd like to know if this type of character is still playable with either monk or rogue with only 28 points to spend. (Note I'm more interested in having fun than being uber, so if it still works but it's not ideal, that's ok with me. Just want to make sure I'm not wasting my time)

Any input or build suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[maddmatt70]

Really the two extra feats for the monk levels are not that useful at the present time assuming they do not add new useful feats in the future of course. The analysis really is ac vs. umd + sneak damage + other rogue skills in my opinion. Since the ac really is not that great and since the to hit of mobs will likely be going up leading to ac characters having to really have a major focus for being a primary ac character the ac really just mitigates some trash mob damage. For experienced players who can just zoom to endgame I would make the rogue version over the monk version without a second thought. For a returning player who could use some trash mob mitigators while levelling up I would lean towards the monk

[Aaxeyu]

Monk levels are clearly superior. The two feats can make you fit dragonmarks. Combine those with the really high AC you can get, along with high saves, evasion and high DPS you get a real powerhouse.
Monk Ac will most probably not be nerfed. It's working as intended.

Rogue levels can't even begin to compete imo.

[Thanimal]

Monk levels are clearly superior. The two feats can make you fit dragonmarks. Combine those with the really high AC you can get, along with high saves, evasion and high DPS you get a real powerhouse.
Monk Ac will most probably not be nerfed. It's working as intended.

Rogue levels can't even begin to compete imo.

I'm with aax on this one, and doubly so because he's been heavily playing a similar WF and seemingly loving every minute of it!

[Unknownperson]

Really comes down to this. With monk you get two extra feats (everyone wants CE, toughness, and dodge anyways) and a bonus to AC if you plan on investing in wisdom. With Rogue you get UMD and possibly some rogue skills if you invest in them.

You choice depending on what you are building. Personally I solo a lot and hate any character I build without UMD, so I would pick rogue, but for others that might not be so important.

[Arcannon]

Thanks very much for the replies. I got just what I wanted out of them. If my partner goes with a wizard/rogue I will be going 2 monk. If he does not I will go 2 rogue this time around and then build a 2 monk when I get 32 point builds. For stats with the 12ftr/6rngr/2rogue how does this look?

str 14
dex 16
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 8

Or I could put con at 10 and bump dex to 18 to start. Int is at 14 because I want to have the rogue skills at or near max and I want CE. Any suggestions or comments?

Also no access to tomes at this time.

[Unknownperson]

Are you planning on being str or dex based?

[maddmatt70]

Monk levels are clearly superior. The two feats can make you fit dragonmarks. Combine those with the really high AC you can get, along with high saves, evasion and high DPS you get a real powerhouse.
Monk Ac will most probably not be nerfed. It's working as intended.

Rogue levels can't even begin to compete imo.

Monk ac is not so much getting nerfed as is all ac will need to be focused on more then just having a monk level with decent dex and wisdom. You will need to have CE and/or a highish dex or wisdom along with of course alot of ac gear which will take away from the offensive gear you could be wearing. This is a mod 9 question more so then a mod 8 i.e. what will be the ac thresholds in mod 9/level 20 and how much ac gear will be needed to be worn to reach these thresholds.

I would take no fail umd heal scrolls over 4 or 5 dragonmarked heals anyday as well. Ironically, I would have at least been receptive to a more creative argument such as also being bludgeon specced with the changes to transmuting and how that affects fighter dps with the probably future liches in the reaver's fate storyline. Instead of course the typical uncreative biased point of view that I have come to expect from yourself.

The 2 monk levels add less to dps then the two rogue levels which add d6+3 Sneak attack damage.

[Monkey_Archer]

Thanks very much for the replies. I got just what I wanted out of them. If my partner goes with a wizard/rogue I will be going 2 monk. If he does not I will go 2 rogue this time around and then build a 2 monk when I get 32 point builds. For stats with the 12ftr/6rngr/2rogue how does this look?

str 14
dex 16
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 8

Or I could put con at 10 and bump dex to 18 to start. Int is at 14 because I want to have the rogue skills at or near max and I want CE. Any suggestions or comments?

Also no access to tomes at this time.

As a 28 point build with no tomes..

Rogue hands down.

With those stats, i dont see room to get wisdom high enough for any benefit. You could swap 14 intel for 14 wisdom but then you wouldnt have CE. a 32 point build with 11-12 intel and 14 wisdom is probably the way to go for monk levels.

[Arcannon]

unknownperson - I want to be str based for damage output. When questing with my friend we will mainly be enjoying the new quests from a storyline and discovery standpoint, and if I decide to raid with this guy he will definately be teaming up on mobs with a tank type character. Now if you don't think I can swing a good enough ac to enjoy the quests on normal/hard, then I would welcome advice on a dex build.

I think I leaning toward rogue now due to the further input and that fact that this is going to be my fun guy, and quite frankly, I like being able to do damage and also be the utility character.

So if I go rogue the dragonmarks aren't really necessary because of heal scrolls? What about when I'm leveling up with my friend?

[Monkey_Archer]

unknownperson - I want to be str based for damage output. When questing with my friend we will mainly be enjoying the new quests from a storyline and discovery standpoint, and if I decide to raid with this guy he will definately be teaming up on mobs with a tank type character. Now if you don't think I can swing a good enough ac to enjoy the quests on normal/hard, then I would welcome advice on a dex build.

I think I leaning toward rogue now due to the further input and that fact that this is going to be my fun guy, and quite frankly, I like being able to do damage and also be the utility character.

So if I go rogue the dragonmarks aren't really necessary because of heal scrolls? What about when I'm leveling up with my friend?

Im sure you can probably fit in dragonmarks for low level quests, and swap them out later if you dont have room.

the stats you gave would work for both str and dex based builds.... 12 str, 18 dex might be better as dex based if you want a better ac.

[Aaxeyu]

Monk ac is not so much getting nerfed as is all ac will need to be focused on more then just having a monk level with decent dex and wisdom. You will need to have CE and/or a highish dex or wisdom along with of course alot of ac gear which will take away from the offensive gear you could be wearing. This is a mod 9 question more so then a mod 8 i.e. what will be the ac thresholds in mod 9/level 20 and how much ac gear will be needed to be worn to reach these thresholds.

I would take no fail umd heal scrolls over 4 or 5 dragonmarked heals anyday as well. Ironically, I would have at least been receptive to a more creative argument such as also being bludgeon specced with the changes to transmuting and how that affects fighter dps with the probably future liches in the reaver's fate storyline. Instead of course the typical uncreative biased point of view that I have come to expect from yourself.

The 2 monk levels add less to dps then the two rogue levels which add d6+3 Sneak attack damage.

Geez. The AC will be good enough, unless AC becomes completely useless for ever ytoon.
You seem to know the tohit of the mobs in mod 9. mind sharing?

Dragonmarked heals are instant, they don't require you to unequip your weapon. They can also be boosted with potency/devotion items and metamagics. They are also highr caster level.

Blunt spec is a baad idea'. Drop half your DPS just because you "think" that sometime in the future there might be a Lichtype boss?

You don't seem to have a clue of what you re talking about really, so perhaps stop posting your random drabble as if it were facts?

[Noctus]

You don't seem to have a clue of what you re talking about really, so perhaps stop posting your random drabble as if it were facts?

Someone is being cranky today.

I concure with the statements, but such talk is not just uncivil, but also unnecessary.

[Shroonith]

I too would not recommend blunt spec for anyone besides WF or human. Seeing as your halfling, piercing or slashing would be much better choices.

[maddmatt70]

Geez. The AC will be good enough, unless AC becomes completely useless for ever ytoon.
You seem to know the tohit of the mobs in mod 9. mind sharing?

You run a vod on Lammania? I know some people who did and the ac thresholds went up.

Dragonmarked heals are instant, they don't require you to unequip your weapon. They can also be boosted with potency/devotion items and metamagics. They are also highr caster level.

only 4 or so full dragonmarked heals.

Blunt spec is a baad idea'. Drop half your DPS just because you "think" that sometime in the future there might be a Lichtype boss?

Like i said sometime down the road there will likely be another lich in the Reaver storyline; specifically a dracolich. No reason to pick up blunt spec now, but there could be sometime down the road.

You don't seem to have a clue of what you re talking about really, so perhaps stop posting your random drabble as if it were facts?

You are the one who does not have a clue. You like your build great, but I prefer dps over ac especially on an offensive oriented character.

[Blazer]

You run a vod on Lammania? I know some people who did and the ac thresholds went up.

Off topic here, but any numbers to say how much those thresholds went up? I've got a couple of characters who are straddling the line of what's useful and if they're going to go from getting hit only 30% of the time to say 70% of the time, I'm going to start reorganizing some gear on them.

[Aaxeyu]

You run a vod on Lammania? I know some people who did and the ac thresholds went up.

lol, sure.
I know some people who did, and the ac threshold went down.

only 4 or so full dragonmarked heals.

5, and they can heal more than twice as much as a scroll.
You seem to care about DPS, then you should care about that dragonmarks are instant cast, and doesn't require you to unequip your weapon.

You also get some CSWs and CLWs

Like i said sometime down the road there will likely be another lich in the Reaver storyline; specifically a dracolich. No reason to pick up blunt spec now, but there could be sometime down the road.

Yes, but I don't see how that is relevant?

You are the one who does not have a clue. You like your build great, but I prefer dps over ac especially on an offensive oriented character.

This isn't about if you like a build or not, but what build is most effective ingame.
Taking rogue levels throws away your chance of having one of the most powerful builds in the game.
You can probably reach over 70 selfbuffed AC, while having great saves, evasion and probably higher DPS than a ranger. Along with very effective selfhealing that doesn't require you to swap out your weapon.

Wanna lose all that just because you want 6.5 SA damage that you only get once in a while?

[Delacroix21]

As a 28 point build with no tomes..

Rogue hands down.

With those stats, i dont see room to get wisdom high enough for any benefit. You could swap 14 intel for 14 wisdom but then you wouldnt have CE. a 32 point build with 11-12 intel and 14 wisdom is probably the way to go for monk levels.

I was going to suggest monk all the way until I saw this.


Realistically with 28pt builds and not tomes the monk splash wont me of much use. Monk splashed builds require too many stats and unless you can devote your time to them they will seem gimp. Gear/make them well and they will be gods!


Currently playing a 12rog/2mnk/2pal (will be 16/2/2), needs every stat item but int, and I would have never made it without my fullset of +2tomes and 32pt build. Even with that I was stretched thin!


EDIT
However! The monk option is still good and the dragonmarks should NOT be ignored if halfling. Especially since the Dragon Mark heir PrC has been announced. Who knows could be cool.

[Lifespawn]

also like to note that dragonmarks cannot be interrupted and you can cast them in beholders antimagic field and i could be wrong but fully specced in the dm i think you can get 6/8/10 if not then it's 5/7/9 and my halfling pally hits the dm for 280 with sup pot and devotion 2 quite abit more than a scroll that "can" fail.

[maddmatt70]

lol, sure.
I know some people who did, and the ac threshold went down.



5, and they can heal more than twice as much as a scroll.
You seem to care about DPS, then you should care about that dragonmarks are instant cast, and doesn't require you to unequip your weapon.

You also get some CSWs and CLWs

In the scenario you describe a healer is the best remedy. A high umd gives a character a better opportunity for success when a healer is not present, because there is no limit on heal scrolls. There is also the many other uses in DDO of umd - anything from fireshield to teleport to cloudkill scrolls to even just equipping items which require umd.

Yes, but I don't see how that is relevant?

Its relevant for a reason that the two extra feats you get for monk could be made useful. As is on your build you have feats like lightning reflexes, quickdraw, and the slightly more useful stunning blow.

This isn't about if you like a build or not, but what build is most effective ingame.
Taking rogue levels throws away your chance of having one of the most powerful builds in the game.

You can probably reach over 70 selfbuffed AC, while having great saves, evasion and probably higher DPS than a ranger. Along with very effective selfhealing that doesn't require you to swap out your weapon.

Wanna lose all that just because you want 6.5 SA damage that you only get once in a while?

As a matter of fact 6.5 SA is worth it and it is synergous with the halfling guile damage. I considered the 2 barbarian levels as well instead of rogue or monk, but wanted evasion. This game is about dps not about ac. Halflings get great saves. My halfling 8 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue has a 20 will save and his fort and reflex are close to 30. I would rather have more dps then have an ac which is by no means future proof.

I have a twf dex based 9 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk who can hit the mid 80s ac without short buffs (uncanny dodge for example) and I have friends who have character builds with high 80s low 90s ac. That is great when ac is needed we can bring a high ac character along. A character with an above average ac that will need to wear gear to up that ac instead of gear to up dps is not future proofing since ac thresholds will be going up and not maximizing dps.