Str based rogue help

[adamr09]

Never really played a rogue past 7ish and dont want to spend a bunch of resources on it if it wont end how i would like. So was wondering if any of you rogue experts could help me out on this build

The build needs to have high str to do great dps. can focus on sneak attacks and diplo to get rid of agro.
Needs high AC without every single raid item out there to boost it.
High trap skills
UMD capabilities (obviously)
No more than 1-2 +2 tome requirements (preferably none)
Mostly rogue levels for exceptionaly high sneak attack potential

can be drow or elf with rapiers or dwarf with axes. idc too much either way as long as it satisfies the requirements.

also, would prefer assassin. not too fond of the others from what i hear and want this build to focus on battle.

Would like to hear any/all advise from the rogue specialists out there. thanks a lot everybody


-adamr

[QuantumFX]

You have given a REALLY, REALLY tall order.

Assassin is a great path for STR based rogues. However it is VERY dependent on rogue levels. You don’t want to splash too much to lose Assassinate DC nor do you want to lose out on Tier III which requires 18 levels of rogue. So this pulls your request away from the 13 Rogue/6 Ranger/1 Monk builds. If you're going for 18 rogue levels you might as well go for 19 rogue levels to max out your SA damage. This leaves 1 level to splash.

If you're a dwarf you want 1 level of a heavy melee class to get Dwarven Axe proficiency. (Your Axes requirement.)

If you're an elf you can go a bunch of different directions with the splash but will be pretty squishy.

[baddax]

IMO Drow would be the best choice.
stats would be something like:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 16 Lawful Neutral Drow Male
(16 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 154 (202)
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 19
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             16                    22 (28)
Dexterity            16                    22 (28)
Constitution         10                    10 (16)
Intelligence         16                    16 (22)
Wisdom                8                     8 (14)
Charisma             12                    12 (18) 

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 16

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 2 (Rogue)

Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting 

Level 4 (Rogue)

Level 5 (Rogue)

Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise

Level 7 (Rogue)

Level 8 (Rogue)

Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike

Level 11 (Rogue)

Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind

Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue) defensive Roll 

Dont forget to max Diplo and Or Bluff to shed unwanted agro, with a 28 str Assasin you will be pulling some serious agro!
Should be able to break 300 hp with shroud iteam and Buffs.
Weakness is Low Wisdom but at least you have the option of Drow Sr and a second wisdom save Via Slippery mind.

[Monkey_Archer]

Yes, you are asking alot.... basically just a rogue that does everything well...

I wouldnt count out a dex based rogue if you go mostly rogue levels...
Most of your dps will come from sneak attacks anyway, and if you want a high ac you will need high dex.

If you insist on being str based, a dwarf 19rogue/1fighter (or barb) Dwarvern axe user might be your best option. Wearing mithril chain or breastplate or something with dwarvern armor mastery if your dex is high enough. Still, an armor wearing assassin will not have an exeptional ac.

If you are willing to give up a bit of dps, a dex based elf or halfling with rapiers can also be a good option.
By the sounds of it, if you plan on focusing on direct combat, why not acrobat? An assassin needs to be in sneak mode to assassinate, and you wont be deaing alot of dps sneaking around trying to backstab stuff. Acrobat immunites are great, and can get a much higher ac.

I have a dex based TWF elf acrobat14/fighter2 that can self buff to over 60 ac and does some pretty good dps.. a bit gimped with 16 starting intel (my 1st 32 point build) but if i were to reroll i would probably go something like:
1monk/1fighter/18rogue
str 14
dex 18 +level points
con 12
int 13
wis 13
cha 8

[Noctus]

Your very steep requirements basically boil it down to a Dwarf Rogue 18 / 2 Fighter.

Wear light armor and get yourself the full dwarfen armor mastery line.

Strength 16 (all level ups here)
Dexterity 16
Constitution 16
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 8
Charisma 6

You only need a +1 DEX tome for this build.

[optianlly: If you have a +2 DEX and a +2 INT tome you can lower INT by 2 and DEX by 1, raising your CHA to 10.]


Feats:
- TWF
- ITWF
- GTWF
- Combat Expertise
- IC:Slashing
- Thoughness
- Dodge
- SF:UMD or Two Weapon Defence. [I´d tend to the later, as AC needs to be focussed on, to be really worth it. Take the other feat you did not take initially at 18th level.]



Use UMD to wandwhip Shield wands.


While Baddax´s build is solid, i would never recommend starting a Rogue with a mere 10 CON. Much too squishy, even with great aggromanagement you will die. Alot.

[baddax]

imo giving up 3 dc to your assasinate (at level 20) is a very deep price to pay for 80 extra hp. i think the build noctus is suggesting would be much better as a thief acrobat (since the acrobat PRE doesnt depend on rogue levels or int; although the 3rd tier hasnt been announced yet).

[drachine]

Never really played a rogue past 7ish and dont want to spend a bunch of resources on it if it wont end how i would like. So was wondering if any of you rogue experts could help me out on this build

The build needs to have high str to do great dps. can focus on sneak attacks and diplo to get rid of agro.
Needs high AC without every single raid item out there to boost it.
High trap skills
UMD capabilities (obviously)
No more than 1-2 +2 tome requirements (preferably none)
Mostly rogue levels for exceptionaly high sneak attack potential

can be drow or elf with rapiers or dwarf with axes. idc too much either way as long as it satisfies the requirements.

also, would prefer assassin. not too fond of the others from what i hear and want this build to focus on battle.

Would like to hear any/all advise from the rogue specialists out there. thanks a lot everybody
-adamr

i have 5 rogues and they are all strength based. i am convinced that to do so is one of the best options of the game. they can do amazing things at higher levels. understand though even if you attain all the things you want, they are not tanks and depending on how powerful the mobs can't fight more then 1 to 3 people at a time for very long.

all my rogues are drow. i just like them. they are perfectly suited for the rogue classes with bonuses at first level to search and spot as well as other things like enchantment resistance.

regarding high dps there are three paths you need to examine

diplomacy - is good as long as someone else is close by, but keep in mind this is a significant IF and you need to have another person there to shed aggro so you can gain sneak attacks

deception - deception melee weapons are a must as soon as you can acquire them. even if you have aggro, if you dual wield deception weapons, which i would advise, each one will bluff your opponent for a short time entitling you to more sneak attacks. deception is also very important at high levels because it works on red AND purple named raid bosses. treason is a perfect weapon for this. deception works against some creatures that cannot be blinded like beholders

radiance - as soon as you can acquire them, craft radiance in the shroud. these will become some of the best weapons you own for dps. the thing to remember is radiance blinds your opponent on critical hits. blind opponents take automatic sneak attacks every turn and if you have crippling strike, automatic strength damage every hit, making your opponents helpless in seconds.

bluff - not useful right now except for soloing possibly and improved feint is not worth the investment. hopefully this will change in the future.

since your goal is to keep your opopnents blinded by deception or radiance weapons or vulnerable with diplomacy, AC becomes less relevant. personally, i find it completely irrelevant. if your opponent has no strength they cannot hit you. sure this does not apply to red named or purple named bosses, but for the most part, red named or purple named raid bosses are going to hit you no matter how high your AC is.

and because AC is less relevant then it would be to say a fighter, i'm not going to spend a lot of time on it except to say this. if you want AC on a rogue, most people go dexterity based rogue which allows you that AC bonus. if your rogue is strength based, well in all liklihood you will just wear some armor and call a few items and call it day. i recommend guard items. they add dps which i think is the proper motivation. what you wear is dps. if you want AC ask someone else.

regarding UMD, you will obviously want to attain every UMD item in the game from the golden cartouche (delara's tomb), the seven fingered gloves (titan raid), and a +6 to charisma skills shroud item. by having this you will be able to use almost anything in the game. you may want to put points into charisma but its no necessary.

also remember, at lower levels rogues tend to be weak. i usually range if possible through the lower levels. you are vulnerable because your bonus to hit is lower and you cannot wear heavy fortification until higher levels. wants you can, you can be more aggressive. at lower levels, you will need the maximum plus you can get on a weapon. the +3 rapier will probably do better then +1 frost rapier for you. you will miss less and at lower levels rogues miss a lot.

tomes are not worth mentioning. if you have them great, if not whatever.

keep in mind as an assassin, stealth is somewhat important as well. you will need stealth gear once you start assassinating things if you are alone. the best rogue item for stealth in the game is the dustless boots which drops in the demon queen raid. they have striding 15%, move silently +15, hide +11 all on one item. try to acquire it especially if you don't want to put points into stealth. just be aware on elite, mobs will have a much higher chance of notcing or hearing you.

typically my drow rogues start with one of two option to the following starting stats:

strength 16
dexterity 16
constitution 12
intelligence 16
wisdom 8
charisma 10

or

strength 14
dexterity 16
constitution 14
intelligence 16
wisdom 8
charisma 10

honestly if you are concerned with hit points, take the 2nd build, there is not that much of a difference, but the 1st build will hit one better. i personally prefer the 1st build. hit point items seem to be plentiful in the game and if you are really worried just take a toughness feat. sacrificing just for hit points in my opinion is a mistake.

you could start with a lower intelligence or dexterity but so many rogue skills rely on intelligence and dexterity, you don't want to really take points from those skills in my opinion.

once you get to level 12 for an assassin, this is where you really start to shine. i would recommend taking crippling strike at level 10, improved evasion at level 13 and slippery mind at level 16. under no circumstances should you splash or take any other classes with the assassin build. you will not be as effective at assassination if you do.

that's about all the advice i can give you. have fun.

[Timjc86]

The build needs to have high str to do great dps. can focus on sneak attacks and diplo to get rid of agro.
Needs high AC without every single raid item out there to boost it.
High trap skills
UMD capabilities (obviously)
No more than 1-2 +2 tome requirements (preferably none)
Mostly rogue levels for exceptionaly high sneak attack potential

From my experience, you're asking for too much. You're not going to be able to get all of that in one package. The closest you can come is the exploiter build (15 ranger / 1 monk / 1 rogue).

I have a strength based assassin who is awesome, but his AC rarely breaks 40. Basically, if you're not willing to do some combination of dex based, monk splash, 3+ item slots for raid drop AC boosters, and/or Combat Expertise, you won't get a meaningful AC. Additionally, a playstyle that fully utilizes high AC is very counter intuitive for a rogue.

I play very aggressively on my rogue and do just fine with a low AC. Just make sure you have enough hitpoints to soak up some blows - I would recommend over 300.

[adamr09]

ya i know it is asking for a lot in the build so i think i can drop the AC part. if i can keep a strong diplo and a bit of hp, then i should be ok right? i just dont wanna have another build that can do massive amounts of dps, but also be being demolished.

so i guess i just want the build to be high str and dps (relying mostly on sneak attacks/diplomacy) and enough hp to survive several hits. also enough int for assasinate and trap skills.

also, regarding the poisons that you can inflict on mobs from the way of the assassin. are the poisons useful? how much does the ice one slow the mobs down and is there a save for the poisons? if so, how often do they actually effect mobs at endgame?

[Timjc86]

also, regarding the poisons that you can inflict on mobs from the way of the assassin. are the poisons useful? how much does the ice one slow the mobs down and is there a save for the poisons? if so, how often do they actually effect mobs at endgame?

No. They're terrible. Admittedly I have an inexplicable personal bias against them, but they're terrible. I will use them on boss fights for the bonus to sneak attacks (I forget what it is exactly, +2 attack or something). I rarely have had a chance to use it against things it will work on because they tend to die before the poison actually procs.

So basically, Assassin I is horrendous.

But Assassinate (with Assassin II) has been some of the most fun I've had in this game.

[kamimitsu]

I've never done the STR route, but I've capped a few rogues in my time.

If you are going for AssassinIII (which, at least as presented on Lamannia, rocks!) then 19/1 will likely be the way to go. At 19 you'll get another Rogue Specialty Feat, and d6 more backstab. Assassin II is crazy fun, but requires quite a bit of twitchiness in choosing targets and approaching your kills. For most players it would be faster and easier to just walk up to the enemy and start swinging. Some folks argue that your kill count actually suffers from the "slowed pace" needed to Assassinate. AssassinI blows goats, so I usually recommend folks do Mechanic until level 12 just for the assurance on trapsmithing over-level (and the occasional WF repair job), then respec to AcroII or AssassinII.

There are also some valid reasons to going AcrobatII and doing a 13/6/1 build. Crazy DPS, decent (if not great) AC, immunity to knockdown. I would suspect that the speed increase from tempest would outperform the missed rogue levels (and extra time wasted sneaking/assassinating... even when done fast, you're losing a few hits per encounter). If you prefer a "walk up and swing" or "circle and swing" fighting style, then this is the choice for you. I am seriously contemplating rolling one of these myself, but I can't bring myself to keep a ranger (even splash) in my character list.

Plenty of ways to skin this cat.

[drachine]

ya i know it is asking for a lot in the build so i think i can drop the AC part. if i can keep a strong diplo and a bit of hp, then i should be ok right? i just dont wanna have another build that can do massive amounts of dps, but also be being demolished.

so i guess i just want the build to be high str and dps (relying mostly on sneak attacks/diplomacy) and enough hp to survive several hits. also enough int for assasinate and trap skills.

also, regarding the poisons that you can inflict on mobs from the way of the assassin. are the poisons useful? how much does the ice one slow the mobs down and is there a save for the poisons? if so, how often do they actually effect mobs at endgame?

the main issue is how you play your rogue. first, i would highly recommend subtle backstabber. this allows you to be more agressive without drawing aggro too much. diplo is useful, but sometimes you will need to tumble away or jump. if you're drawing a ton of aggro it means you have crappy tanks in the party usually.

the main reason to use poison action boosts is the bonus to hit, the bonus to damage and the +20 to confirm critical hits which is all good. the stealth bonus is in my opinion useful as well.

no i don't notice any difference with icechill and because of that i have thought of taking it off my hot bar. i'll use Thoughtburn vs beholders and Soulshatter vs Mindflayers, but have not noticed any strong results. it is a level 6 ability after all so i'm not expecting too much.

[markymarksta]

I rolled up STR based dwarven rogue.

Went 14/2 rogue and pally.

Used WIS as a dump stat. Took force of personality. His saves are fantastic due to the CHA bonus. Its in the 40's against traps. He spots the traps in Monastry on hard (haven't been in there on elite) so don't be too concerned with needing Wisdom for a high spot. An item seems to suffice.

I use 2 MIN II dwarven axes for raid bosses and diplo. Weakening enfeebling for trash. For a STR build AC is difficult to achieve so HP's is your best defence. I would have preferred to go Warforge but the dwarven axe enhancements were too good to pass up to increase the characters too hit and damage bonuses.

I hope this helps.