Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[Borror0]

I think the entire proposed problem is actually merely a symptom of a social issue.

If a quest being easier than intended is a social issue, then we have a problem. Our quests started to live and interact.

[Riorik]

If a quest being easier than intended is a social issue, then we have a problem. Our quests starting to live.

This has to be your most ridiculous quote of the hour. This is so out of context as to be a completely different question. It's roughly equivalent to me providing an interview and then you editing in a different question to my answer to give the appearance that I'm not just off, I'm way off.

Why don't you quote the entire answer? Why only the one line that you could mislabel?

The difficulty of the quests are designed to be that way. The easy button always existed, the most significant of which is quest knowledge, then twitch playing skills, character build, and lastly equipment...equipment plays a more significant role as characters go up in levels...at the lower areas...the areas you seem to be specifically addressing, it's not. It absolutely isn't for me. If it is for you, perhaps you should play more and type less?

Several of this threads' comments are on the idea that newer players would be distressed at running through quests with "old crew twinked" players and it might ruin their experience.

A lot has to do with the experience, but there are far more resting on the gear than what DDO players like to think.

While some players totally smoke the average PUG player even if untwinked, that is not the case of the average player. For most players, their greatest advantage come from their gear and not for their experience. Even for a skilled player, better gear makes a lot more difference than most like to admit: I can be ten times more careful twinked than untwinked, and not feel a thing.

This is where it's wrong. Gear plays a larger role at mid and higher levels. There is some stuff you can use at very low levels, but much of it is pure playing skill. A LOT of it is pure playing skill...and then the build.

I'll requote because I believe this one statement obliterates your entire argument.
"While some players totally smoke the average PUG player even if untwinked,..."

Again, this is all about an assumption that twinking is the problem. The social issue is the mentality that if somebody has something better than me, I either want it too or I don't want them to have it at all because it's better than me.

This viewpoint goes way beyond gaming.

[Angelus_dead]

Again, this is all about an assumption that twinking is the problem. The social issue is the mentality that if somebody has something better than me, I either want it too or I don't want them to have it at all because it's better than me.

This viewpoint goes way beyond gaming.

What do you think of the concept of "game balance" ?

[Borror0]

This has to be your most ridiculous quote of the hour.

It was intentionally absurd, because your comment was as well.

The difficulty of the quests are designed to be that way.

It is obvious that dungeons were not originally build with twinking in mind, nor was twinking intended.

Gear plays a larger role at mid and higher levels..

False. Twinked gear plays its biggest role at lower levels, and not at higher level.

The difference between a new player and a player with a stack of CSW potions and Maelstrom or a flaming longsword, a +2 Mithril FP and a +2 heavy steel shield is beyond ridiculous. At mid levels, the gap reduces slightly and then enlarges at higher level (but that is more acceptable).

The social issue is the mentality that if somebody has something better than me, I either want it too or I don't want them to have it at all because it's better than me.

This viewpoint goes way beyond gaming.

Your analysis could not be more wrong. Challenge is an important of gameplay, and jealousy has nothing to do with the issue.

[Aaxeyu]

Your analysis could not be more wrong. Challenge is an important of gameplay, and jealousy has nothing to do with the issue.

No game is challenging at the beginning, unless you suck at it.
The problem I see with twinking is that new players get super-rushed through the low level content and thus missing out on alot, and that is the result of old players mentality.
It's not the lack of challenge in the early levels that's the problem here.

[maddmatt70]

False. Twinked gear plays its biggest role at lower levels, and not at higher level.

This is false twinking has the least impact at the low levels. It is the middle and higher levels where twinking has a bigger impact. 4-5 round shroud part 4s vs. 1-2 round shroud part 4s are a great example of this at end gam. The gianthold is a great example of the impact twinking can have at the mid game.

The difference between a new player and a player with a stack of CSW potions and Maelstrom or a flaming longsword, a +2 Mithril FP and a +2 heavy steel shield is beyond ridiculous. At mid levels, the gap reduces slightly and then enlarges at higher level (but that is more acceptable).

I am lazy and rarely pass down a stack of csw potions until mid levels. Alot of potions are unusuable until level 4-5.

Your analysis could not be more wrong. Challenge is an important of gameplay, and jealousy has nothing to do with the issue.

You love using words like wrong and not factual. You play Lotro now, but just like to post in DDO, so how do you even know about what you are posting anymore? Have you run a character through Korthos even? Why do you want the devs to devote a bunch of resources and time to revamping the lowbie and mid quests and gear? Well they just did that in mod 7 and 8? I mean come on we have all been suffering for some end game content for god knows how long and you want them to do more lowbie work. Bah forget you..

[Riorik]

False. Twinked gear plays its biggest role at lower levels, and not at higher level.

The difference between a new player and a player with a stack of CSW potions and Maelstrom or a flaming longsword, a +2 Mithril FP and a +2 heavy steel shield is beyond ridiculous. At mid levels, the gap reduces slightly and then enlarges at higher level (but that is more acceptable).

Your analysis could not be more wrong. Challenge is an important of gameplay, and jealousy has nothing to do with the issue.

Really? I can tell you about me and my own experience starting up a new low level character recently. Other than tomes (which were insignificant to capabilities...they were convenience because I wanted it now), I did not bother limited twinking until 4th+...and seriously doing it until 8th+.

Lets analyze...so lets say a player does exactly what you propose. Melee build that throws on a huge pile of CSW potions, +2 MFP, +2 MHS, best weapons, whatever and we go with...the quests he would run, either solo or in a group, weren't really balanced on difficulty for him. His is the extreme condition that was ALWAYS possible, just unlikely in the first week after DDO was released that one player would actually have all of that available. Perhaps unlikely is the biggest understatement of the year.

Please explain to me why the player that deliberately is doing this - he/she has gone out of their way to orchestrate the collection/acquisition of all the appropriate items, created a new character with the obvious intention of making their transition to level 16 as quick and easily as possible...would be likely to just stop and say...hey, this isn't a challenge. I don't like this anymore?

Are you seriously making this statement?

It seems ridiculous that you would be; I don't think you would, but you seem to be attempting to blur that line...when you're actually talking about the other players in that party running with this incredibly overtwinked character. So, just one admission to start...you are talking about the OTHER players, right?

So lets assume you are talking about the OTHER players in the party. You're also assuming those players want something different. That's fair. However, are they truly locked into this experience in this way?

Why do you assume they have to stay in this party? Mind Control?

It is obvious that dungeons were not originally build with twinking in mind, nor was twinking intended.

I agree that twinking is not intended, in the same way that when you bought a notebook, it was never intended to be propped up to hold up one end of a shelf in a college dorm room.

However, human ingenuity knows few bounds and we adapt materials to our needs.
It is disingenuous and absurd to even state that it was unanticipated considering that twinking has been occuring for a long time.

Back in the early 80's when I received my Blue Boxed Edition of D&D and started playing, one of the early things I wanted to do was pass along items I'd found to lower level characters. Around 1990 in college playing on various Muds, Muses, Mushes, etc, I did it whenever possible through whatever methods were available. Would it surprise you to learn about twinking that's occurred on, well, every other MMO in existence that hasn't used a game mechanic to stop it?

[Borror0]

4-5 round shroud part 4s vs. 1-2 round shroud part 4s are a great example of this at end gam.

The problem there is that there is no incentive to play at higher difficulties, not the difference in gear.

The gianthold is a great example of the impact twinking can have at the mid game.

All that has been suggested would benefit equally, so that's an irrelevant criticism.

You play Lotro now, but just like to post in DDO, but how do you even know about what you are posting anymore?

Unless I missed it, Turbine has not update their game since October (which is the reason I play LOTRO in my free time instead of DDO).

I mean come on we have all been suffering for some end game content for god knows how long and you want them to do more lowbie work. Bah forget you..

Fail.

[Riorik]

You play Lotro now, but just like to post in DDO, so how do you even know about what you are posting anymore?

Given the above is true...

Unless I missed it, Turbine has not update their game since October (which is the reason I play LOTRO in my free time instead of DDO).

And this being your only response to it - absolutely not a denial but instead implies confirmation.

I think your argument is like an 18th century sailing vessel after a battle. Shredded sails tied to a shattered mast mounted on a broken keel and sinking to the ocean floor.

I think it's no longer worthwhile to post responses in this thread. I find it quite notable that my questions concerning who's experience you are addressing, the twinkee versus the other party members have not been answered by someone clearly lurking on the thread. I'd guess you chose not to because you do not have an answer that passes the sniff test.

[maddmatt70]

The problem there is that there is no incentive to play at higher difficulties, not the difference in gear.

All that has been suggested would benefit equally, so that's an irrelevant criticism.

Unless I missed it, Turbine has not update their game since October (which is the reason I play LOTRO in my free time instead of DDO).

Fail.

You are asking in this very thread for dev resources yet you say in the link we need more highby quests. You sir can not have it both ways.

[Borror0]

You are asking in this very thread for dev resources yet you say in the link we need more highby quests. You sir can not have it both ways.

To think a change is good and to think it is a priority are two different things.

Also, there is a difference between adding new quests and improving the overall experience.

[gfunk]

I don't think that twinking is such a huge advantage as people often think it is. I rolled a gimp a couple weeks ago, and was a bit suprised at how easy quests still were, even with my horrible build (barb/rogue/wizard) and no twink gear whatsoever. All new players have to do is get some house P favor and they have access to all the uber buffs they need.. (+4 stat and 30 point resists are nothing to sneeze at for low level characters). Many of the best lowbie items are bound anyways (higher + stat items from tangleroot quest chain, blackwidow bracers, Carnifex, etc etc.). The new Korthos items (esp the bonus to hit items) are uber enough on their own, and wouldn't be replaced by hand me down gear until the mid-levels.

Mostly, the main twink I like for lower level characters is a +2 int tome, but the skill points are hardly game breaking and certainly aren't noticable at lower levels. I could send my lowbies some twink gear, but thats mostly a matter of convinience (GT items for delaras for example, though those items can just be picked up by new players if they run the catacombs series).

The main exception I see is having enough plat to buy haste and barkskin potions, which are a pretty big benefit. Still, new players could just sell a few pure waters, prophesy of khyber tomes, and some other collectables on the AH to keep themselves well supplied with plat.

That said, I'm not missing the potions as much as I thought I would on my Gimp. Mostly, I am of the opinion that twinking is maybe 10 to 20%, and the experience of the player is 80 to 90% of the difference. How many experienced players have even tried playing a non-twinked lowbie lately?

Also, I think its nice to leave the option open for experienced players to twink their characters to let them shave a bit of leveling time off (many of them are rather bored with the lower level quests).

[zed1]

Why not create a server where twinking is not possible (no auction house, the mailbox would only be for incoming mail about favor upgrades, etc)? Then, make all new players start there until they have attained the proper favor to unlock the other servers. I suspect that the new server would be popular with classic PnP types, and permadeath guilds.

[Borror0]

[...] just unlikely in the first week after DDO was released that one player would actually have all of that available. Perhaps unlikely is the biggest understatement of the year.

That has nothing to with what I said.

Please explain to me why the player that deliberately is doing this - he/she has gone out of their way to orchestrate the collection/acquisition of all the appropriate items, created a new character with the obvious intention of making their transition to level 16 as quick and easily as possible...would be likely to just stop and say...hey, this isn't a challenge. I don't like this anymore?

If people can't identify who is the most attractive between two guys, then I don't know why you expect them to know what is most fun to them.

Speed, efficiency and power are very loaded choices, over fun. Furthermore when the choice is fun now or speed, efficiency, power and more fun sooner. It does not even matter if it is rational of not, humans are not rational creatures and trying to explain their behaviors or desires rationally is setting yourself up for failure.

If given the choice between speed or being challenged, people will pick speed even if they would have more fun by being challenged. When a player experiences most fun is when he can go full out and still be challenged (which is the reason there are difficulty modes in video games).

Having to handicap yourself to have fun simply is less fun. No matter how illogical that sounds, that is the reality.

Why do you assume they have to stay in this party? Mind Control?

If you find that a design encouraging the formation bad groups is good design, please stay away from game design.

As it stands now, there are two undesirables situation that can happen:

• An untwinked player can find a group with twinked characters, get a bad experience and stick to the group.
• An untwinked player can find a group with twinked characters and drop the group.

Neither of those situations are desirable.

The second one is the less worse, but still undesirable because it means that there are barriers to grouping in a game where grouping is already hard enough this way and nearly required for all quests. The first one is the worse, however, because instead of concluding "That grouped sucked" someone could conclude "Grouping sucks in this game" and not subscribe.

I agree that twinking is not intended, in the same way that when you bought a notebook, it was never intended to be propped up to hold up one end of a shelf in a college dorm room.

Incorrect analogy. If twinking was deemed an acceptable use of the game by the game developers, then there would be no minimum level on tomes in Module 9 and Korthos would not offer loot that is better than what can be found in the Harbor.

Would it surprise you to learn about twinking that's occurred on, well, every other MMO in existence that hasn't used a game mechanic to stop it?

The fact that there are MMOs who try to stop only reinforces the theory that it is undesirable.

I find it quite notable that my questions concerning who's experience you are addressing, the twinkee versus the other party members have not been answered by someone clearly lurking on the thread. I'd guess you chose not to because you do not have an answer that passes the sniff test.

If you have an important question, don't hide it in the middle of walls of text and then get upset it was not noticed.

The answer is both.

[baddax]

One thing has occured to me is that DDO was started out with too little content. This caused Founders and beta testers or people who weere here from close to day one to be forced to rerun the same content over and over, and thus the grind.

In Pnp you never played the same modules over and over with the same characters. If you defeated the Valeh in X module there was never any need to repeat the same module on hard or elite and actually couldnt be completed again because she was defeated, unless by so otherwordly source she returned but then that would be a different quest. You would just wrap up and give your DM time to go out and but the next module or design his own. Ie X player calls up DM " Hey we on for Friday night?" DM "Naw still got some work to do on the campaign, will have to reschedule for next wednsay. Let everyone know if you can. Thx."

Also raid loot. IF i wanted X character to have a Wounding puncturing Vorpal at the end of a certain qeust/campaign. Then guess what was in the chest at the end of the quest? A wounding puncturing vorpal. Loot was rarely If ever allowed to be transferred between characters as it would be to unbalancing. At least in campaigns i played. You could not repeatedly run quests over until the random loot tables gave you the reward you were looking for.

[Riorik]

That has nothing to with what I said.

Hmmm, lets see. Your quote was:

"False. Twinked gear plays its biggest role at lower levels, and not at higher level.

The difference between a new player and a player with a stack of CSW potions and Maelstrom or a flaming longsword, a +2 Mithril FP and a +2 heavy steel shield is beyond ridiculous. At mid levels, the gap reduces slightly and then enlarges at higher level (but that is more acceptable).

Your analysis could not be more wrong. Challenge is an important of gameplay, and jealousy has nothing to do with the issue."

My entire quote was:

Really? I can tell you about me and my own experience starting up a new low level character recently. Other than tomes (which were insignificant to capabilities...they were convenience because I wanted it now), I did not bother limited twinking until 4th+...and seriously doing it until 8th+.

Lets analyze...so lets say a player does exactly what you propose. Melee build that throws on a huge pile of CSW potions, +2 MFP, +2 MHS, best weapons, whatever and we go with...the quests he would run, either solo or in a group, weren't really balanced on difficulty for him. His is the extreme condition that was ALWAYS possible, just unlikely in the first week after DDO was released that one player would actually have all of that available. Perhaps unlikely is the biggest understatement of the year.

So what you did was pick a single statement out of context...the context was that you suggested that twinked gear plays it's largest role at low level and then you were very specific about equipment that had no or very low ML. My single quoted line was an aside...an admission that when DDO first opened, nobody had this stuff. If anything, if you make the assumption that the intended play style for a quest was always that which is done by the very first players to go through it never having twinked their characters...because there were NO high level characters in the first week.

Instead of supporting your original argument, you opt to misquote, reinterpret then casually dismiss the entire argument that you didn't want to address or answer.


What I am appalled by is that you did actually finally answer my question which I will paraphrase with this...my question...is it the twinkee or the individuals playing with them who's DDO quest experience you are attempting to enhance?

The answer is both.

I think your statements may have a small patch of ground to stand on when discussing new players entering the game for the first time who are disappointed by the experience, but the idea that it's the twinked character too?

Please explain to me why the player that deliberately is doing this - he/she has gone out of their way to orchestrate the collection/acquisition of all the appropriate items, created a new character with the obvious intention of making their transition to level 16 as quick and easily as possible...would be likely to just stop and say...hey, this isn't a challenge. I don't like this anymore?

So, was that your final answer? Would you care to use any of your three lifelines?


The rest of your post - sadly, the bulk of it, seems like so much psycho-babble and distraction off topic. You make so many assumptions as if there was only one reason or thing that motivates individuals. You assume so much with absolutely no empirical data.

So to analyze it...the first piece is, you think players are making a choice between "speed or challenged". And then you go on the two scenarios that assume a player is not having fun with a twinked character in the party and states that neither of the scenarios where a player with stays or doesn't stay is desirable.

I will assume, probably fairly, that you intend it to be desirable to the game designers for the overall intangible good of the game.

The first problem with this is, you make assumptions without any facts. At no point do you discuss how often this occurs nor do we talk about degree of twinking. There's no frequency nor large sample size (any) and there's no empirical data concerning the quest/party exit survey's that would be necessary to support the conclusion that somebody didn't have fun...or even the percentage of players in any given category.

This is all anecdotal and subjective. Your opinion that is probably valid for you personally but isn't for me, personally. I believe strongly that I am as equally equipped to analyze whether I'm having fun or not as you seem to be, as least in regards to me personally. I never regard myself as qualified to just know whether the individual standing/sitting next to me is having fun -- that's where the question "Are you having fun?" comes into play.

It is incredibly disingenuous to suggest as you did in your post that individuals don't know what makes them happy but somehow you do. Can't have it both ways - either all of us know or none of us know unless you're better than the rest of us.


So, thank you but no. I do not need you or anybody else to protect me from myself in this game. I tend to play on a goal oriented focus. To an absolute degree, there are no perfect games, except maybe Tic-Tac-Toe or coin flipping. And, I absolutely maintain my opinion...that twinking isn't a primary problem. It's a symptom related to the structure of the game that's impacted by dozens or hundreds of design decisions. It's not a problem so much as it's just one aspect of the entire package. It's not good nor bad. The bad experiences that new players have with twinked players, assumes that all such experiences are bad - a huge assumption without clearly providing a measurable way of defining good/bad/whatever.

I think group dynamics are something else entirely and absolutely about socialization and interpersonal relationships. Keep this in mind - regardless of how twinked a character might be, what if they hide in the back and let the newbie take the lead? Is there any possible scenario where it's all about the individuals and their "people" skills?

I think merely the possibility of the latter scenario utterly dismisses twinking as the end-all/be-all negative and here's how to make DDO better opinion. I can't criticize anybody for wanting to improve the game. This just isn't it.

[Borror0]

My single quoted line was an aside...

It was not an aside. It was the conclusion of two paragraph.

Well, either that or you are expressing yourself really poorly and I am not getting a word of what you are saying.

If anything, if you make the assumption that the intended play style for a quest was always that which is done by the very first players to go through it never having twinked their characters...because there were NO high level characters in the first week.

I would like to reply to this but it makes no sense at all.

So to analyze it...the first piece is, you think players are making a choice between "speed or challenged". And then you go on the two scenarios that assume a player is not having fun with a twinked character in the party and states that neither of the scenarios where a player with stays or doesn't stay is desirable.

Notice that I prefaced the two choices with "As it stands now, there are two undesirables situation that can happen", which means that I only list the possible negative consequences. I could have listed the situations where the experience is unaffected, but that is of no interest to the conversation.

This is all anecdotal and subjective.

Answer these questions, then:

• Why do you believe game developers (of all MMOs) take the time to code lines of code against twinking and add multiple levels of difficulty?
• Why do we see complaints against "dumbing down the game"?
• Why do we see requests to make the game harder or adding new difficulty settings?
• Why do game developers (of all MMOs) take easy buttons away?
• Why do we see requests for hardcore/permadeath servers?

If I am wrong, then game developers of all MMOs are wasting their time!

It is incredibly disingenuous to suggest as you did in your post that individuals don't know what makes them happy but somehow you do.

That is not what I said.

I think group dynamics are something else entirely and absolutely about socialization and interpersonal relationships. Keep this in mind - regardless of how twinked a character might be, what if they hide in the back and let the newbie take the lead? Is there any possible scenario where it's all about the individuals and their "people" skills?

Counting on player-initiated restraints to solve an issue is setting yourself up for failure.

While some players might be inclined to not play and let the untwinked players play, it's just preposterous to assume that is sufficient. For that reason, it makes sense for game developers to alter the game's design to decrease the likelihood of these situations to happen.

[Clay]

Borror:
Do you really think that the ability to solo those quests is related to gear?

Do you really think that penalizing players that have been around longer than new players is a good thing?

Hey, how about this? Lets have graduated servers where if you have played the game less than one year you are on server A... and if it is between more than 1 year but less than 2 you are on server B and so on. That way no one would ever suffer the trauma of grouping with a veteran play who might have better gear. OMG the humanity!

Lets see. You are a fresh faced lad just about to head out into the world an seek your fortune. You head out to the big town from your father's farm with your pick axe and rusty old shield banged out of a wheelbarrow. You meet a grizzled veteran of many years. He relates stories of dungeons looted and chests plundered over many years adventuring... you decide to group up. You head out of the tavern and as he gathers his gear you see that he has a worn rusty old pick axe and a battered shield made out of a wheelbarrow, JUST LIKE YOU!

Wow, confidence inspiring isn't it. That is what you have to look forward to after many years adventuring? I think I would head back to the farm.

[Vorn]

Minority voice.
Most of the folks I play with don't twink until lvl 8 (except for the +2 intel tome)...we just don't stay at that low level for more than a couple or three days, even as casual gamers who play a couple or three hours a day. It doesn't strike me as worthwhile to worry about for as little time as will be spent there by a seasoned player.

The bigger problem, imho, between seasoned players and newer players at lower/mid levels is the intimate knowledge of the quests possessed by the seasoned players. I see no way to balance, in a game mechanic, the knowlege of a person who has run a quest dozens, perhaps hundreds of times with someone who's experiencing it for the first time.

[Borror0]

Do you really think that penalizing players that have been around longer than new players is a good thing?

Penalizing a group usually means that they are at disadvantage, therefore I have no idea how you concluded that.