Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[roggane]

At first, I thought of suggesting that each tier should add to the item's minimum level but that seem a little harder to code.

this would definitely be a better idea but probably not possible.

[Borror0]

not exactly true, anyone can hit the jackpot on pulls and make money off the ah. and I wouldn't consider anyone lvl 13-16 a "new" player anymore per se.

That still does not prevent the item from being unbalancing.

I would say that the general opinion on Green Steel is that they are the kind of items we should have gotten at level 20, not earlier. I don't think it's a particularly good idea to have them being part of the level 13-16 landscape. It's too soon, especially if we don't see weapons more powerful than Green Steel in module 9, or any time soon.

[eonfreon]

Just the opposite of that last part. I want new players to get better through acquired knowledge and experience (i.e. learning). The ones that stick around will have a stronger bond to the game as opposed to the generic MMO player who starts a new account, blasts through the content in a month or two, and leaves for another MMO because it's too easy and/or boring.
<snip>

That's the nature of my objection.

I don't want to see DDO get dumbed down either, but I fail to see how this, at face vale, will really do anything so negative as you describe.

As many say, it's our own understanding by spending Real Time actively participating in the game environment, that really trumps everything.

All the changes to the difficulty - either up or down- like all the ways that have already happened like trap DC's and other difficulty scaling problems, in DDO all falls into "I KNOW" category eventually.
So if Gear is only a part of the greater whole, will boosting it for certain levels, and nerfing it at higher levels break things.
Anyone who thinks "yes" I would really like some elaboration.
I understand your objection Do'Urden I think.
Because I share a variation of it, I also want to see challenge and want to see Bozos go away, but I want to make sure those who are on the fence, and are into it enough to really want to try, get thru their awkward masterwork stage (I know it doesn't really exist anymore, with Korthos and all), have fun.

If they are really Terrible they really aint a threat to our GamePlans until they hit at least 9th.
The really awful will most likely stop there.
Scaling quests is where I can see problems and a lot of work.
A lot of work is everywhere of course.

[Do'Urden]

I think you missed the part where I said quests should become harder.

It sounds to me like you believe new players are somehow alienated from DDO because they end up grouping with with experienced vets zerging twinked toons through lowbie content. You believe that closing this *power* gap is necessary to the health of the game (i.e. new subscriber retention).

Am I on target so far? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I want to make sure I understand the real background of the proposal you've put forth.

I believe the main cause of the gap is the experience of the veteran player. I think it has little to do with gear. How difficult would you have to make STK, for example, to slow down an experienced vet twinked or not? Then think about how difficult you just made that quest for a completely new player regardless of what gear you gave him/her. Having everyone crawling through lowbie quests is the answer?

As it stands, there is a huge difference between a player fresh out of Korthos and a player who has been around for a while.

Personally, I look at the opening line of the OP and say to myself...so what? Is DDO really putting the NPE / new sub retention on the backs of the veteran players speed leveling their 20th toon to cap? Do they really believe these vets are responsible for poor new subscriber retention rates and they can fix it by purging them and/or dumbing down the game for the masses? That might explain the dramatic slowing of new cap content in favor of fluff...or not. Time will tell.

[Angelus_dead]

I think it has little to do with gear.

If that were true, mailing gear and consumables to new alts wouldn't be as popular as it is.

Personally, I look at the opening line of the OP and say to myself...so what? Is DDO really putting the NPE / new sub retention on the backs of the veteran players speed leveling their 20th toon to cap? Do they really believe these vets are responsible for poor new subscriber retention rates

That statement is not related to the post to which you replied.

There is a difference between explaining a change and advocating for it, and a further difference between advocating and declaring priorities.

[Do'Urden]

If that were true, mailing gear and consumables to new alts wouldn't be as popular as it is.

It's popular because it makes things a tick or two easier for the handful of days a vet spends leveling a new character. It doesn't account for the majority of the power gap. Completely remove twinking and the vets that stick around will still zerg lowbie quests with properly built toons and the ability to maximize their potential in live gameplay. Experience and knowledge rule.

[Borror0]

It sounds to me like you believe new players are somehow alienated from DDO because they end up grouping with with experienced vets zerging twinked toons through lowbie content. You believe that closing this *power* gap is necessary to the health of the game (i.e. new subscriber retention).

Am I on target so far? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but I want to make sure I understand the real background of the proposal you've put forth.

Sort of. There is more to add to the list.

The general idea being that I don't think it is appropriate for old time veterans to be unchallenged by the content they are running, and for that you have to improve the new players, weaken the veterans or allow veterans to skip the low level content.

That last one does not solve everything, by the way.

I believe the main cause of the gap is the experience of the veteran player. I think it has little to do with gear.

A lot has to do with the experience, but there are far more resting on the gear than what DDO players like to think.

While some players totally smoke the average PUG player even if untwinked, that is not the case of the average player. For most players, their greatest advantage come from their gear and not for their experience. Even for a skilled player, better gear makes a lot more difference than most like to admit: I can be ten times more careful twinked than untwinked, and not feel a thing.

How difficult would you have to make STK, for example, to slow down an experienced vet twinked or not?

STK is an extreme example of how knowledge can give an edge.

The problem with STK is that the end boss it is a ridiculously unbalanced encounter when you compare it to the rest of the quest (it's nearly impossible to find a group of new player able to defeat the boss without being unchallenged during the whole quest chain) and that the trap is simply far more complex than everything a player will have met thus far.

If you take Waterworks as an example, you'll notice that knowledge has little to do.

Is DDO really putting the NPE / new sub retention on the backs of the veteran players speed leveling their 20th toon to cap?

Veterans players speeding through a quest do negatively affect retention.

If you have not heard stories of new players getting their experience ruined by alts going too fast for them, you have not been paying attention. When first experiencing an MMO, most players are in for the exploration and not for a race to the end game. It's important to remember that.

[Borror0]

It's popular because it makes things a tick or two easier for the handful of days a vet spends leveling a new character. It doesn't account for the majority of the power gap.

The intent is not to take away all advantages from veterans (if I really wanted that, would have made all gear Bind on Acquire).

The intent is to reduce the gap to a more acceptable level, and the gear has a lot to do with it.

[branmakmuffin]

The intent is not to take away all advantages from veterans (if I really wanted that, would have made all gear Bind on Acquire).

Bingo!

At the risk of sounding facile, don't "balance" twinking, eliminate it (gets rid of plat farmers, too).

[boldarblood]

Problem is not the gear. I rarely find the need to twink anymore with the quality of items that come through Korthos.

The things that seperate the players is the consumables and knowledge. And I'd even venture to say that knowledge is the greatest factor. I doubt we see any changed to consumables.

Knowledge can not be changed. I can take an untwinked character on Korthos versus someone who is relatively new and my character will be much more effective. Through stat placements, skill set, knowing not how to F up a toon.

Absolutely nothing will change, there will STILL be just as much of a gap between the players.

[Borror0]

I doubt we see any changed to consumables.

Personally, I would like to see healing wands and scrolls not being sold at vendors but I know I would be flamed if I was to propose that.

I don't think that having to throw your money away to be a good healer is good design (and I would guess most clerics will agree with me on this) and only servers to make healers less popular than they typically are (which is bad enough). And then, it makes many encounter that were intended to be hard far easier.

Oh, and I would put a long cooldown on mnemonic enhancers

[branmakmuffin]

Personally, I would like to see healing wands and scrolls not being sold at vendors but I know I would be flamed if I was to propose that.

Why would you let that stop you? Anything anyone might propose will be regarded as utterly ridiculous by someone or other.

The general state of the game is itself utterly ridiculous with its over-powered items, the AH and its endless supply of wands, scrolls and potions, which is not to say the game can't be played in a more reasonable manner (and it is, by PD guilds and no-twink static groups and such).

[Borror0]

Why would you let that stop you?

I want to avoid the thread devolving into a "Don't nerf me", which is what such a proposition would probably do.

[branmakmuffin]

I want to avoid the thread devolving into a "Don't nerf me", which is what such a proposition would probably do.

Did you also want it to not devolve into a "get rid of twinking" thread? The reason I say that is because I think spending time on balancing twinking is not necessary, when the best solution is right there.

Twinking ruins the game, and is no doubt responsible for a lot of player boredom. In the no-twink static group I play in, my character actually uses Miasma's Fang, and trading stuff to Yannick, Davyd and Golldscuttle is exciting because we wonder if we're gonna get a weapon of lesser bane for the "wants one of them" collectibles.

Some have claimed that the change to the way CON damage works has taken the "loot excitement" out of the game, because now a wounding weapon of puncturing won't be a big deal any more (setting aside for the moment the reasonableness of that position). You want to put loot excitement in the game (which is not the point of your thread, I know), make it so your character can't use anything but what it finds in quests, gets as end rewards or gets in trade for collectibles.

[boldarblood]

Personally, I would like to see healing wands and scrolls not being sold at vendors but I know I would be flamed if I was to propose that.

At this late in the game that change would really hurt the pug people more than anymore. You get rid of consumables being sold and there would be a mass exodous of accounts. The venom on this forum would be immense. Plus the LFM would shrink, why would I want to waste my valuable consumables in a pug. THey are not worth my time/money to pug at that point anymore. Bad mojo to get rid of consumables imho. At least in this stage of the game. Might not have been as big of deal if game started that way.

[branmakmuffin]

Bad mojo to get rid of consumables imho. At least in this stage of the game. Might not have been as big of deal if game started that way.

That is probably true, making many discussions along these lines mere academic musings.

[Borror0]

At this late in the game that change would really hurt the pug people more than anymore.

If by that you mean that Elite will be harder for most people, that would be the intended goal.

If you are telling me that normal would be impossible for most PUGs, then we would have a problem. I don't think that would happen, however.

You get rid of consumables being sold and there would be a mass exodous of accounts. The venom on this forum would be immense.

I have been around for Module 4.1 and I can tell you that you're overestimating the impact.

Not that I expect people to like it, if it was done. People don't like having their easy button taken away but a strong reaction would only prove how owerpowered it was.

Plus the LFM would shrink, why would I want to waste my valuable consumables in a pug.

That's backward. If you have a moron in your group, you let him die rather than heal him.

People will group because it is more effective.

[BLAKROC]

The intent is not to take away all advantages from veterans (if I really wanted that, would have made all gear Bind on Acquire).

The intent is to reduce the gap to a more acceptable level, and the gear has a lot to do with it.

Borro you must be bored cause this is the lamest idea you have propesed to date.

Don't forget that all chest loot is RANDOM. which means no guarantees. Kinda like the whole con change because of w/p some peeps pulled em others didn't and the have not's cried to the end of time.
doesn't matter how you start all characters are not equal in endgame.

give it a rest will ya as you generally have good things to say, Not this time.

[Borror0]

Don't forget that all chest loot is RANDOM. which means no guarantees.

Randomness does not mean unpredictable.

If you increase the minimum level of loot that drops in level appropriate quests, the trend will be that untwinked character will improve.

doesn't matter how you start all characters are not equal in endgame.

It matters. If a character starts with a sugar daddy funding him, he will be better equipped than someone who is not funded by sugar daddy.

There might be some are doing better while untwinked, but those are statistical anomalies.

[baddax]

So what you are saying is you want to punish players who have been playing the game for a long period of time, have aquired skill and understanding in game mechanics and character build design?

/ not signed