Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[Borror0]

As it stands, there is a huge difference between a player fresh out of Korthos and a player who has been around for a while.

Not only is does a veteran have more skills and more knowledge about the game, but he also have loot far better than what a new player could ever dream of. The result is that some players can solo quests that takes a full party for some to complete. That is unhealthy as it makes balancing quests nearly impossible and has a potential to huge imbalances within a party.

To address this issue, I suggest to:

1. Increase the ML of the loot dropped in each quest
2. Add a ML to some potions and thieve tools
3. Implement new ways for new players to make money or find consumables
4. Add more static rewards to existing quests
5. Make static rewards static (like they once were) instead of semi-static
6. Increase the drop rate of low level named items
7. Change the minimum level for newly created Green Steel items from 12 to 18

Of course, the result of those will be that quests are much easier.

At that point, the logical solution will be to make quests harder (and that part is really important).

1. Increase the ML of the loot dropped in each quest
The main source of the problem is that veteran can mail loot to their new characters and gear them up with equipment of that level, while new players are equipped with gear that is three levels lower than themselves (and most often lower) because the minimum level of loot dropping in a quests is equal to the quest's level minus three.

Therefore, what I suggest is to make minimum level equal to the quest's level.

That way, twinking is still desirable but the difference between a new player and an old timer is greatly reduced, therefore making it easier to quests to design quests that are neither a snorefest for the veterans nor a frustratingly hard for new players.

To avoid this making running on Hard or Elite unattractive at cap I would suggest either of:

• -2 ML on loot for the character that pulled it out of the chest
• Hard give a -1 ML and Elite -2 ML for the character that pulled it out of the chest

2. Add a ML to some potions and thieve tools
Fairly simple, and I doubt I have to explain my reasoning much. Currently, a few potions and all thieve tools can be used regardless of level and thus allowing level one characters to use Cure Serious Wounds potions and +5 thieve tools.

I am aware this is a deviation from PnP, but I see this as a required deviation to fit a MMO.

3. Implement new ways for new players to make money or find consumables
While new players can buy stacks of 100 potions and as many healing wands as needed, new players cannot afford the same amount of potions. While it would be bad to give them a endless supply of potions, allowing them to afford a bit more than now or being able to gain more of those easily.

A good, obvious way would be to increase the drop rates from chests (both more frequently and bigger stacks than 3 potions).

4. Add more static rewards to existing quests
By that I mean:

• Add more static rewards to existing quest chains
• Improve the existing one so that more are desirable
• Add static rewards for flagging for raids
• Add chain quests at high levels

Generally speaking, static rewards are enjoyed and they allow to level the field.

I count improving the current ones as adding more rewards because some of them are just useless and it is as good as if they didn't exist.

If more chain quests are even added, try to avoid making them increase in levels (like Tangleroot and STK are currently), it does not make much sense. Since players run them from start to finish as one group, the group gets through very easy quests to then end doing really hard quests. It would make more sense to keep the challenge relatively equal across the board.

5. Make static rewards static (like they once were) instead of semi-static
The reason is to help the previous point. I can't remember the reason they were changed to semi-static but I remember thinking it was a poor one. I can't think of any good reasons for those to not be static. You've finished a long quest chain, after all.

6. Increase the drop rate of low level named items
For the time that they last in the hands of one player, their drop rate is inadequate. Even if one is good, the odds of a player finding are close to none. And then, someone in the party has to be able to use it (which is kind of rare).

Improving some of them would not be a bad idea either as many are totally useless.

7. Change the minimum level for newly created Green Steel items from 12 to 18
While now Green Steel equipment is end game equipment, it will not be the same in the future. In fact, in the future, Green Steel equipment will act as uber twinking gear by letting old time players mailing large ingredients to their level 14-16 character to craft themselves incredibly powerful equipment for the level.

[Quanefel]

A few suggestions if I may.

It would help everyone across the board if we had LOTRO crafting using D&D ruleset to allow even starting players the chance to make plat but also spend plat for us at the higher end, those of us who have so much but nothing really to spend it all. The lower level players or anyone not wanting to really quest could make plat off us who have the plat but not the desire to really craft. The plat will be earned and would be a boon to the DDO ecomomy.

The game as it is now, is a monty haul campaign. There needs to be measures in place to try to help pull back from that. Even someone like me who has more plat that I know what to do with and items packing my accounts that go unused.

So, another way to help bring that back into a reasonable setting is guild housing. Let us spend grotesque amount of plat for a nicety. Not something we really need but gives us a chance to use all that wealth for something. By doing so and combining it with crafting we can also have others players make us furniture or the like so we can pass along our wealth to others in a good way, constructive way.

Capitialism like this would work and be good for the game. Supply and demand.

[Angelus_dead]

As it stands, there is a huge difference between a player fresh out of Korthos and a player who has been around for a while.

Here is a completely different approach to reduce twinking problems, which would be a lot easier to perform:
Allow players with 2000 favor to create new characters at level 6.

Obviously there are many ways to elaborate on that idea.

[*]Add a ML to potions and thieve tools

Potions have ML... do you want it to be higher?

• -2 ML on loot for the character that pulled it out of the chest
• Hard give a -1 ML and Elite -2 ML for the character that pulled it out of the chest

That can be classified as "partial binding", which has been mentioned relating to some other games. It can greatly reduce the severity of twinking, while still allowing a lot of trading (and all the sublimation that entails).

If more chain quests are even added, try to avoid making them increase in levels (like Tangleroot and STK are currently), it does not make much sense. Since players run them from start to finish as one group, the group gets through very easy quests to then end doing really hard quests. It would make more sense to keep the challenge relatively equal across the board.

Story: prior to the release of module 2, I spoke to a DDO dev and complained that Threnal West was too much easier than East. I got the same reply over and over: "The numerical CR is different only by 0 or 1".

The reason is to help the previous point. I can't remember the reason they were changed to semi-static but I remember thinking it was a poor one.

To increase replayability, and to add a reward possibility for a character who wants none of the static items.

[Borror0]

Potions have ML... do you want it to be higher?

They don't. You can use a CSW potion at level 1.

I got the same reply over and over: "The numerical CR is different only by 0 or 1".

Wait... what?

[Angelus_dead]

Wait... what?

I kept on complaining that a character who soloed all of Threnal West with cheap gear could hardly get past the first 3 mobs of East. I said that since the NPC questgivers encourage you to try West or East in random order (with South coming after both), that they should have a similar level of challenge.

The reply to this was that the listed CR numbers on the missions were approximately the same, so therefore they were the same difficulty.

[Borror0]

The reply to this was that the listed CR numbers on the missions were approximately the same, so therefore they were the same difficulty, and any observation to the contrary was in my imagination.

Ok. I read that right the first time... I won't comment on what I think of this since developers are members of the community.

[Vyctor]

While CSW does not have min levels, some potions like haste for example do....

[mhorn]

Why are we messing with stuff that isnt broken?

Were we complaining that WoP was too powerful... Oh Please nerf away.
Were we compalining that Reaver Raid was too easy? Oh, please make the Air Ellys impossible.

[Angelus_dead]

Why are we messing with stuff that isnt broken?

1. Nobody is "messing" with anything.
2. There is no "we" applicable to the thread, because you don't share a unity of motivation with the thread author.
3. The twinking complained about is broken, although a case can be made that the experience of newbies is a much lower priority than retaining long-term customers.

Were we complaining that WoP was too powerful... Oh Please nerf away.
Were we compalining that Reaver Raid was too easy? Oh, please make the Air Ellys impossible.

Many people really did complain about both those things. Maybe you didn't notice.

[spifflove]

This is the single worst idea ever on the forums.

It would kill permadeath play.

You are already handed uber loot in korthos:
1. Pathfinder set +2 to hit
2. Insight googles +1 to hit.

woot! +3 to hit against all enemies!!! Maunty Haul loot given for free. Not even a rare drop.

If you are so concerned about new players found a welcoming guild.

May this thread die. Moved along nothing more to see here.

[Borror0]

It would kill permadeath play.

That does not make any sense.

If you are so concerned about new players found a welcoming guild.

Please forward that request to Turbine. I would say that being welcoming to new players is in their interest.

[Angelus_dead]

This is the single worst idea ever on the forums.
It would kill permadeath play.

That statement is so completely wrong that obviously you have no idea what you're talking about.

You either don't know what permadeath is like, or don't know what this thread says, or possibly both.

[Ryavin]

As it stands, there is a huge difference between a player fresh out of Korthos and a player who has been around for a while.

Not only is does a veteran have more skills and more knowledge about the game, but he also have loot far better than what a new player could ever dream of. The result is that some players can solo quests that takes a full party for some to complete. That is unhealthy as it makes balancing quests nearly impossible and has a potential to huge imbalances within a party.

To address this issue, I suggest to:

1. Increase the ML of the loot dropped in each quest
2. Add a ML to some potions and thieve tools
3. Implement new ways for new players to make money or find consumables
4. Add more static rewards to existing quests
5. Make static rewards static (like they once were) instead of semi-static
6. Increase the drop rate of low level named items

Of course, the result of those will be that quests are much easier.

At that point, the logical solution will be to make quests harder (and that part is really important).

1. Increase the ML of the loot dropped in each quest
The main source of the problem is that veteran can mail loot to their new characters and gear them up with equipment of that level, while new players are equipped with gear that is three levels lower than themselves (and most often lower) because the minimum level of loot dropping in a quests is equal to the quest's level minus three.

Therefore, what I suggest is to make minimum level equal to the quest's level.

That way, twinking is still desirable but the difference between a new player and an old timer is greatly reduced, therefore making it easier to quests to design quests that are neither a snorefest for the veterans nor a frustratingly hard for new players.

To avoid this making running on Hard or Elite unattractive at cap I would suggest either of:

• -2 ML on loot for the character that pulled it out of the chest
• Hard give a -1 ML and Elite -2 ML for the character that pulled it out of the chest

2. Add a ML to some potions and thieve tools
Fairly simple, and I doubt I have to explain my reasoning much. Currently, a few potions and all thieve tools can be used regardless of level and thus allowing level one characters to use Cure Serious Wounds potions and +5 thieve tools.

I am aware this is a deviation from PnP, but I see this as a required deviation to fit a MMO.

3. Implement new ways for new players to make money or find consumables
While new players can buy stacks of 100 potions and as many healing wands as needed, new players cannot afford the same amount of potions. While it would be bad to give them a endless supply of potions, allowing them to afford a bit more than now or being able to gain more of those easily.

A good, obvious way would be to increase the drop rates from chests (both more frequently and bigger stacks than 3 potions).

4. Add more static rewards to existing quests
By that I mean:

• Add more static rewards to existing quest chains
• Improve the existing one so that more are desirable
• Add static rewards for flagging for raids
• Add chain quests at high levels

Generally speaking, static rewards are enjoyed and they allow to level the field.

I count improving the current ones as adding more rewards because some of them are just useless and it is as good as if they didn't exist.

If more chain quests are even added, try to avoid making them increase in levels (like Tangleroot and STK are currently), it does not make much sense. Since players run them from start to finish as one group, the group gets through very easy quests to then end doing really hard quests. It would make more sense to keep the challenge relatively equal across the board.

5. Make static rewards static (like they once were) instead of semi-static
The reason is to help the previous point. I can't remember the reason they were changed to semi-static but I remember thinking it was a poor one. I can't think of any good reasons for those to not be static. You've finished a long quest chain, after all.

6. Increase the drop rate of low level named items
For the time that they last in the hands of one player, their drop rate is inadequate. Even if one is good, the odds of a player finding are close to none. And then, someone in the party has to be able to use it (which is kind of rare).

Improving some of them would not be a bad idea either as many are totally useless.

Another example of borror wanting to create his own game. Just do it already.

Here is a novel idea, how about just enjoying the game the way it is?

[Do'Urden]

As it stands, there is a huge difference between a player fresh out of Korthos and a player who has been around for a while.

Not only is does a veteran have more skills and more knowledge about the game, but he also have loot far better than what a new player could ever dream of. The result is that some players can solo quests that takes a full party for some to complete. That is unhealthy as it makes balancing quests nearly impossible and has a potential to huge imbalances within a party.

So now we're on to solving lowbie quest / gear balance issues as a panacea for DDO are we? Another step to alienate the truly experienced players who've earned the knowledge / gear that they've acquired? Yeah, that's what this game needs

Take away all the twink gear and the experienced veteran will still do what they do because of the yellow highlighted portion above. It's pathetically easy to blast through levels 1 - 8 or beyond without twinking at all. You know what? These people EARNED the right to do that by showing some initiative and learning how to play the game.

In contrast, Korthos Island and the NPE project have been a disastrous experiment in spoon feeding people completely new to the game. Decent gear is FAR MORE available at all levels to the new player than it ever has been. Having the knowledge of how / when to use it is a different story.

Not to mention, a year later the complete disregard for our capped playerbase is starting to take its toll in a flood of cancelled accounts. You don't have to drive off the vets to keep DDO alive and prosperous.

[Angelus_dead]

So now we're on to solving lowbie quest / gear balance issues as a panacea for DDO are we?

That accusation bears no resemblance to the post to which you replied.

[eonfreon]

So now we're on to solving lowbie quest / gear balance issues as a panacea for DDO are we? Another step to alienate the truly experienced players who've earned the knowledge / gear that they've acquired? Yeah, that's what this game needs

Take away all the twink gear and the experienced veteran will still do what they do because of the yellow highlighted portion above. It's pathetically easy to blast through levels 1 - 8 or beyond without twinking at all. You know what? These people EARNED the right to do that by showing some initiative and learning how to play the game.

In contrast, Korthos Island and the NPE project have been a disastrous experiment in spoon feeding people completely new to the game. Decent gear is FAR MORE available at all levels to the new player than it ever has been. Having the knowledge of how / when to use it is a different story.

Not to mention, a year later the complete disregard for our capped playerbase is starting to take its toll in a flood of cancelled accounts. You don't have to drive off the vets to keep DDO alive and prosperous.

I don't get it.
What is the nature of your objection?
It's about lowbee gear that may help out new players.
I didn't read too much into specifics, that whole -2 ML stuff and all is about rules and checks and balances I'm not qualified to really comment much, unless I acknowledge that is comes from my gut feelings and not "experience", but I don't know how these guidelines have any effect on those of us who've played and already acquired our gear.

Unless the simple fact that anything that "may bring them up" will also "bring me down"?
I'm gonna read the Op again, make sure Borr aint taking MY gear and giving it away somehow.

[Borror0]

I didn't read too much into specifics, that whole -2 ML stuff

As it stands now, the loot dropped is three levels lower than the quest:

• If you run a level 20 quest you will loot minimum level 17 or lower loot.
• For minimum level 20 gear, you will need to run a level 23 quest.

I proposed to change the system so that the loot is the same level than the quest.

Then, I made two suggestions from which the developers could pick:

• A level 20 quest will drop ML 20 but will be two levels lower for the character that pulled it out of the chest.
• A level 20 quest will drop ML 20 but will be of lower level for the character that pulled it out of the chest if the quest was on Hard or Elite (-1 to minimum level for hard and -2 to level for Elite).

Without either of these, there would be little incentive to run quests over your level and it would make Hard and Elite less attractive at end game. Not to mention it would pretty much prevent random loot of ever helping to make higher difficulty settings more appealing (which is bad).

As a result:

• there will be greater incentive to run a quest on Hard or Elite than now
• the random loot will improve
• players won't pull gear far inferior to their level all the time in chests while leveling
• twinked characters have less of an advantage over untwinked than now

I hope it is clearer.

I don't know how these guidelines have any effect on those of us who've played and already acquired our gear.

Of the top of my head:

• Chances you loot something useful for your lowbie will raise drastically
• Generally speaking, PUGs will have better gear so it will probably improve PUG quality
• Random loot will get better at cap
• New player retention will increase

[Goldeneye]

I like your idea- making the game accessible to lower levels.

New players, generally lack the gear, as a result they take quests slower, and learn the game much better then a player zerging through at full speed.

Though I really agree on your idea with adding more named items and good end rewards. For example, adding a +1 Acid Longsword to the WW end rewards would help new players catch up, and perhaps adding items like +2 Frost Longswords of PG to Tangleroot end rewards would make a big difference for new players.

[Angelus_dead]

As it stands now, the loot dropped is three levels lower than the quest

To be more precise, the loot actually has a minimum level three lower than the quest. To say that a +5 dagger is ML 8 is different from it being level 8. It's only a subtle distinction, but it provides useful insight into the intended functioning of the game design.

If a +5 dagger was "level 8", that would mean it was correct and natural for level 8 characters to possess and use them. But they are "minimum level 8", and the actual character level that was supposed to be expected to have one is higher.

Obviously that's not how the game works anymore. For a long time it has been easy for characters to pick up ML 8 items as soon as they train level 8. But that's due to a flaw in the game design, and is not how things were meant to be. (For an example of the original goal, look at the Threnal Warblade; a +5 weapon as the reward for a rather difficult L10 quest). It was intended that characters would mostly use items they had helped loot, and the reason the items from an L10 quest were usable by L6-8 characters is because of the possibility someone would join a quest a few levels higher than himself.

However, twinking and trickling* has cause the majority of ML X weapons to be available to L X characters long before they've had much opportunity to pull ML X loot personally.

* Trickling is the inadvertent transfer of game power from high to low level characters, usually as a side effect of liquidating their vendor junk. Twinking is similar, but has empowering the lowbies as the explicit goal.

[The10man]

Not signed not now way not no how. You play this way if you want I dont wish to. Forcing this would be very very bad.