Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[Angelus_dead]

It is player-made, which means it won't work.

It might be useful to point to the Oberoni Fallacy, which is jargon specific to RPG design. It states that even if players are allowed to adjust game rules to avoid a problem, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

[branmakmuffin]

I have to both agree and disagree.
Yes, it is fun to enjoy the content, completely, or nearly so, untwinked.
And it is fun to blow through low-mid content twinked to the gills.

That the game allows "twinking to the gills" ruins the game overall, IMO. It is not how D&D functions (there aren't endless other characters running around selling cast-off uber gear), and I'd prefer DDO work more like D&D, not less.

[Riorik]

I've read a lot of interesting thoughts & opinions. I think some of the points were valid.

However, that still leaves this entire thread as a crisis that really only exists in the minds of a few forum elites.

[Angelus_dead]

However, that still leaves this entire thread as a crisis that really only exists in the minds of a few forum elites.

What makes you say that?

[Angelus_dead]

It is not how D&D functions (there aren't endless other characters running around selling cast-off uber gear)

That's an important point which many people have failed to understand. They look at the specific D&D rules, and assume that deviating from those rules will always mean the game itself is deviating from D&D.

But in reality, an online game has differences which you simply can't change (such as the existence of 1000s of PCs instead of 3-10). In light of those differences, sometimes a rule change is needed to bring things back towards how they were supposed to work.

For example, the minimum level to equip a magic item. There's no such rule in D&D, and some people claim it was a violation to add it to DDO. But if it didn't exist in DDO, then level 1 characters would be handed +5 armor and +5 Holy Khopesh of Lesser Kobold-Bane, plus as many Stoneskin wands as they can carry. D&D has the assumption that if PCs are able to interact, then they're going to remain as one party and need to be able to share power to face encounters together. But since that major condition doesn't apply in an MMORPG, restrictions on the exchange of loot are direly needed.

[ShaeNightbird]

That the game allows "twinking to the gills" ruins the game overall, IMO. It is not how D&D functions (there aren't endless other characters running around selling cast-off uber gear), and I'd prefer DDO work more like D&D, not less.

I know. It would be nice if it did.
Unfortunately, the only game that I've found which replicates the P&P experience closer than any other is....*drum roll with cymbal crash...* Ta daaaaaa! The Temple of Elemental Evil!!!......*Hears loud boos and catcalls...* But actually, with the Circle of 8 mod it's really good. Yes, it's Greyhawk, 3.0 ruleset. Village of Homlett, all that.
But it too is extremely flawed in it's own way. Un- modded = un playable. And it isn't an MMORPG. *sigh*

NWN runs a close second, but still, no MMO.

[Riggs]

Rebalancing would be a good thing.

the quote from page 1 about "well the cr is only 1 different" is really telling about the disconnect in what actually happens in game, and what some devs seem to think based on some made up WoTC numbers. (CR is a judgement call - it used to be about hit dice).

New players generally get upset, ticked off, or just dont want to play the game when they sign up to a quest and say 4 of the people are newish - but 1-2 are leveling their 7th character, twink it out because they wont want to spend 3 weeks at low levels for their 200th time, and blast through the quest at super speed - leaving ****ed off new players behind.

The minimum level thing is for loot is absurd in all sorts of ways. What was balanced for paper fights is way underpowered with the DDO "100 monsters every 10 minutes" type of quests, with inflated hit points, spell points (i.e infinite) and increased to hit etc.

Pulling a 'level 2' +2 sword from a level 7 quest is a joke in DDO, and a bad one. Average loot is at least 6 levels below the quest level. If you fight with only looted items - by level 8 you are going to be getting killed fairly often, and by level 10-12 pretty much every single quest you will be dying a lot because you will be running around with a +3 sword and +3 armor. Few named items if any (new players dont spend 30 runs on Xorian usually while levelling the first time for example).

It took my first character months to find anything better than the +1 frost weapon I pulled while on my one and only loot run way back when Korromar was 'easy'. The things I pulled in that set of 5 runs I was using 6 months later because I never found anything better until level 12.

It is impossible to balance a game at low-mid levels for both new players and twinked players. New players should not be forced to always group with twinked out players - but it is hard to figure out from the average lfm how experienced a player is.

So something should be done, lots of good ideas.

Personally - I would LOVE to be able to start a character at level 6, and not have to run waterworks for the 400th time - really - its not new anymore. And it doesnt appeal to new players to try and keep up with someone zerging the thing when they actually want to experience a quest.

Loot should be dropping that is no more than -2 levels below a quest. A level 6 quest will be dropping +3 to +4 weapons say.

Named items should be useful to someone of that level, and drop more than 1 in 100 runs.

And for people that DONT run raids 30 times a week - running a raid once or twice, getting either nothing, and finding out they wlll really need to run it 19 more times just to have a half decent chance of getting ONE item, is a real disincentive to fun.

Also raids needs to cut out about 75% of the named items - as most of them are total garbage, were garbage when they were released, and a bad joke. Von has 19 items, and at least 12 of those items are barely worth picking up simply to sell to a vendor, never mind actually using.

Also quests need balancing for XP. Half the reason people zerg is that there is a bunch of quests not worth running, so they run the same few quests, but because tehy have run it 200 times, they are sick to death of it and run it as fast as humanly possible just to get it over with so they can enjoy the character at higher level.

If quests gave real xp for each level (House D depths for example, market quests, Korromar, House K, House J.....and so many others), people would spend more time runnign more quests than just a few, and maybe enjoy variety more.

Anyway....

[Borror0]

Loot should be dropping that is no more than -2 levels below a quest. A level 6 quest will be dropping +3 to +4 weapons say.

Considering a +3 weapon is ML 6, you're being a little too generous there.

Also raids needs to cut out about 75% of the named items

That's a dangerous thing to do.

As it stands, Hound and Vision have too little loot. The quantity is not as much of a worry than the quality.

Also quests need balancing for XP.

I could not QFT this enough.

If Turbine really wants to put development resources in low levels, one of the best way for them to achieve that would be by rebalancing the XP and level of quests (some quests are blatantly easier or harder than their indicated level). I will go as far as saying that developing new quests bellow level 15 is wasting their time as that time could be better used improving existing quests (adjusting the XP, making it less boring, adjusting the challenge, etc.).

There is no lack of low level content in DDO, only underused and overused quests.

The lack of content is situated at level 15 and beyond.

[maddmatt70]

Factually false. Look no further than DDO's launch or posts from new players explaining why they did not join.

I think Turbine has lost alot of players because they have failed to advertise. You could say the poorest aspect of Turbine/Atari/DDO as a business has been its failure to market and advertise as a game and I think you would not be false but rather accurate. DDO as a product has two really strong and unique features: active combat and character customization. The owners of DDO should be able to have a strong MMO niche market at the very least but becuase of advertising in large part they have failed to acquire this niche. This is very factual and your failure to acknowlege this will not be remedied by your outposting me or others who broach this subject.

[Angelus_dead]

If you fight with only looted items - by level 8 you are going to be getting killed fairly often, and by level 10-12 pretty much every single quest you will be dying a lot because you will be running around with a +3 sword and +3 armor.

That's only true if you try to keep up with the Joneses, and aggressively attack the same kinds of foes chosen by characters whose gear was externally-provided. You won't have much choice to avoid that if you play with the general population, but if you could somehow only group with characters who also avoided external loot, you'd be fine.

For a particular example, I'll point out that I've seen a lot of advice telling PCs they should be "ready for gianthold" at level 11. That's absurd from the perspective of the original game design, which had those characters in the desert.

[dragons1ayer74]

That's only true if you try to keep up with the Joneses, and aggressively attack the same kinds of foes chosen by characters whose gear was externally-provided. You won't have much choice to avoid that if you play with the general population, but if you could somehow only group with characters who also avoided external loot, you'd be fine.

For a particular example, I'll point out that I've seen a lot of advice telling PCs they should be "ready for gianthold" at level 11. That's absurd from the perspective of the original game design, which had those characters in the desert.

If the desert quests had more xp then they might be worth it to run it. As it stands now the desert quests can be harder, take longer, give less loot, take longer to get to the quest and give less xp so why would you want to run them?

[eonfreon]

That the game allows "twinking to the gills" ruins the game overall, IMO. It is not how D&D functions (there aren't endless other characters running around selling cast-off uber gear), and I'd prefer DDO work more like D&D, not less.

Very good.
I also wish it did.
In my case I wish it was more like the Campaign I created more than 15 years ago.
So you want it to work more like 3.5 D&D right?
I missed out on that stuff, personally I'd "prefer" a game based on AD&D (whatever point 0 that is ).
Ce la vie.
I really didn't expect a D&D game online to even come close to the experience I had when I played it PnP.
Yep, that's true, it really is a separate experience from PnP.

Gotta ask ya Bran:
since you play in a closed static group and all, are you having a lot of difficulty controlling that twinking stuff?
If you aint what's the problem?

I remember as a DM I often balked at giving out the rewards that a module I used said I should.

Good thing I played by the option that allowed me to "fix" things for my group.

nah, sorry, gotta disagree.
Twinking to the gills may certainly ruin your game, no doubt, but 'overall'?
Sorry, you're no more qualified to make that call than I am.
So based on my experience- you're wrong.

I guess we'll see if you're right in the end or I am, or neither of us is.
I hope "twinking to the gills" doesn't ruin the game.

Simply because I like to Twink Out .

[Aaxeyu]

Pro respec and against twinking?
Something is wrong here...

[Borror0]

Pro respec and against twinking?
Something is wrong here...

I'll bite. Where's the contradiction?

[Aaxeyu]

I'll bite. Where's the contradiction?

Twinking makes rerolling much faster. So does respec. Ok, skipping the leveling process is not the only argument for respec, but lot of people wan't respec because they don't want to spend so much time leveling again if they reroll.
Some heavy twinkage will make them able to level to cap very quickly so atm, it's a good way to "reduce" the need for respec.

Personally I don't really know if I want twinking to be balanced as its pretty fun to powerlevel with a twinked toon. But I agree that it's overpowered.

[branmakmuffin]

Gotta ask ya Bran:
since you play in a closed static group and all, are you having a lot of difficulty controlling that twinking stuff?
If you aint what's the problem?

It's not a problem in that group. I never stated that's the only way I play.

Twinking to the gills may certainly ruin your game, no doubt, but 'overall'?
Sorry, you're no more qualified to make that call than I am.
So based on my experience- you're wrong.

Based on my experience, I'm right. Twinking (and the AH and brokers) allows characters to advance more quickly, thus exhausting content within a smaller time frame, thus leading to all these "There's not enough content!" whines. Disallowing twinking wouldn't stop those players from burning through content, but it would probably slow them down.

Monty Haulism is bad for a D&D campaign, and it's bad for DDO for similar reasons (players begin to use super gear, and the game has to be increased to match the gear to remain challenging; bad, bad, bad).

[Angelus_dead]

Twinking makes rerolling much faster. So does respec.

False.

lot of people wan't respec because they don't want to spend so much time leveling again if they reroll.

False.

[Aaxeyu]

False.

Nope.

False.

Nope.

[gizmos199]

I think you missed the part where I said to make quests harder as well.

nope i got your point did you get mine .... leave it alone . makeing the quest harder is NOT going to solve anything .
the reaver was ez, and any one was alowed into the group . then they made it harder for the new players so that they can feel usefull . ... here's what realy happened when it changened . if i didnt know you, chances r you didnt get in on the reaver run . do u see my point. you wanna make things chalegening for you . thats fine . do what i did . i started anouther account . didnt mail anything to it . a bare account and leveled 3 toons . to prove how well i knew my ddo. to myself . my self beeing key words . trial account . 10 days . i did it in 5 days all raids 1750 fav level 16 cap . i know the quest well . they r ez for me now . when i first started they where not . i died alot . it took 8 weeks to hit level 11 .

[Borror0]

the reaver was ez, and any one was alowed into the group . then they made it harder for the new players so that they can feel usefull

No, they did not. If that was their intent, they would have changed the quest in a different way than what they did.

you wanna make things chalegening for you

If it was only wanting to make the game harder to me, you would have a point. Sadly, it is not the case.