Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[baddax]

That analysis does not allow to conclude that I want to punish veterans.

Perhaps you should take a look at the OP a second time as most are improvements to the new players, rather than taking away from veterans.

DDO has three difficulty settings. If other MMOs can pull it off with two, I am sure three will suffice for us.

I disagree with the whole premise. I would say it would be like trying to make rules changes to basketball football (insert favorite sport) and making the difference between a michael jordan, kobe bryant etc etc and making changes to the game to make it appear there is less of a difference between star players and average players. Who wants to watch a team of all John Paxons???

Either way if you are trying to narrow the gap of new players to elite players it is not a good thing IMO. Part of the allure to a new player is seeing how much better elite players are.

[baddax]

Also i dont believe any real (non game breaking)amount of buffing new, newer players is going to make up for the lack of experience.

Any new player can spend time on the forums and research builds ideas concepts and have a whole forum commintiy backing them up (ok flaming them, but i digress). Any new player will most likely find many helping hands as far as gear and such along the way. ie " (group leader) ok everyone got their disruptors ready? this last fight can be kinda nasty. (new player) uh i dont have one. (leader) hold on a sec let me swap toons i got a disrupting heavy mace on one of my older character that i was gonna vendor, brb."

[Borror0]

Part of the allure to a new player is seeing how much better elite players are.

Typically, the appeal is looking at higher levels and being eager to reach that point.

I remember, and have heard many similar tales, of looking at level 12 and saying "Can't wait to be like those guys!" However, the presence of a twinked player in my party was more disruptive than helpful. I was not looking up at them.

Part of the allure to a new player is seeing how much better elite players are.

It would not change that as twinked characters will still be superior. The difference is that non-twinked characters will not be useless.

Also i dont believe any real (non game breaking)amount of buffing new, newer players is going to make up for the lack of experience.

As Angelus_dead said, you only need one player that knows the quest to benefit of that.

Any new player will most likely find many helping hands as far as gear and such along the way.

It's not healthy for a game to rely on that type of thing to make up for bad design.

"Most likely" should be replaced by "maybe", to match reality and show why it is bad to rely on generosity.

[branmakmuffin]

Part of the allure to a new player is seeing how much better elite players are.

What?

[stoc]

As it stands, there is a huge difference between a player fresh out of Korthos and a player who has been around for a while.

Not only is does a veteran have more skills and more knowledge about the game, but he also have loot far better than what a new player could ever dream of. The result is that some players can solo quests that takes a full party for some to complete. That is unhealthy as it makes balancing quests nearly impossible and has a potential to huge imbalances within a party.

To address this issue, I suggest to:

1. Increase the ML of the loot dropped in each quest
2. Add a ML to some potions and thieve tools
3. Implement new ways for new players to make money or find consumables
4. Add more static rewards to existing quests
5. Make static rewards static (like they once were) instead of semi-static
6. Increase the drop rate of low level named items
7. Change the minimum level for newly created Green Steel items from 12 to 18

Of course, the result of those will be that quests are much easier.

At that point, the logical solution will be to make quests harder (and that part is really important).

1. Increase the ML of the loot dropped in each quest
The main source of the problem is that veteran can mail loot to their new characters and gear them up with equipment of that level, while new players are equipped with gear that is three levels lower than themselves (and most often lower) because the minimum level of loot dropping in a quests is equal to the quest's level minus three.

Therefore, what I suggest is to make minimum level equal to the quest's level.

That way, twinking is still desirable but the difference between a new player and an old timer is greatly reduced, therefore making it easier to quests to design quests that are neither a snorefest for the veterans nor a frustratingly hard for new players.

To avoid this making running on Hard or Elite unattractive at cap I would suggest either of:

• -2 ML on loot for the character that pulled it out of the chest
• Hard give a -1 ML and Elite -2 ML for the character that pulled it out of the chest

2. Add a ML to some potions and thieve tools
Fairly simple, and I doubt I have to explain my reasoning much. Currently, a few potions and all thieve tools can be used regardless of level and thus allowing level one characters to use Cure Serious Wounds potions and +5 thieve tools.

I am aware this is a deviation from PnP, but I see this as a required deviation to fit a MMO.

3. Implement new ways for new players to make money or find consumables
While new players can buy stacks of 100 potions and as many healing wands as needed, new players cannot afford the same amount of potions. While it would be bad to give them a endless supply of potions, allowing them to afford a bit more than now or being able to gain more of those easily.

A good, obvious way would be to increase the drop rates from chests (both more frequently and bigger stacks than 3 potions).

4. Add more static rewards to existing quests
By that I mean:

• Add more static rewards to existing quest chains
• Improve the existing one so that more are desirable
• Add static rewards for flagging for raids
• Add chain quests at high levels

Generally speaking, static rewards are enjoyed and they allow to level the field.

I count improving the current ones as adding more rewards because some of them are just useless and it is as good as if they didn't exist.

If more chain quests are even added, try to avoid making them increase in levels (like Tangleroot and STK are currently), it does not make much sense. Since players run them from start to finish as one group, the group gets through very easy quests to then end doing really hard quests. It would make more sense to keep the challenge relatively equal across the board.

5. Make static rewards static (like they once were) instead of semi-static
The reason is to help the previous point. I can't remember the reason they were changed to semi-static but I remember thinking it was a poor one. I can't think of any good reasons for those to not be static. You've finished a long quest chain, after all.

6. Increase the drop rate of low level named items
For the time that they last in the hands of one player, their drop rate is inadequate. Even if one is good, the odds of a player finding are close to none. And then, someone in the party has to be able to use it (which is kind of rare).

Improving some of them would not be a bad idea either as many are totally useless.

7. Change the minimum level for newly created Green Steel items from 12 to 18
While now Green Steel equipment is end game equipment, it will not be the same in the future. In fact, in the future, Green Steel equipment will act as uber twinking gear by letting old time players mailing large ingredients to their level 14-16 character to craft themselves incredibly powerful equipment for the level.

I got a great idea, why don't you just shut the hell up and sit down! Tired of all this crying **** about the game is too easy this or that; if you want to "balance" the game yada yada yada. If you don't want to play it with twinking etc then don't. Leave my game alone I like it the way it is (with the exception of the missing mod 9 but I'm not excited about all of those changes either).

[Borror0]

/snip

Thank you for taking the time to quote the whole post. Your ability to occupy a lot of vertical space is greatly appreciated.

Tired of all this crying **** about the game is too easy this or that

If one suggests to modify an aspect that he views as too hard or needlessly punitive, then he is dumbing down the game and that is bad. If one suggests to make a part of the game harder or trying to take away an easy button, then he is out of his mind.

Something tells me people just don't like change.

If you don't want to play it with twinking etc then don't. Leave my game alone I like it the way it is

Congratulation, you've missed the whole point.

Leave my game alone I like it the way it is

Hanging by a thread and about to get closed due to low subscription base?

[branmakmuffin]

Typically, the appeal is looking at higher levels and being eager to reach that point.

I can sort of agree with this.

However, the presence of a twinked player in my party was more disruptive than helpful. I was not looking up at them.

I can completely agree with this (I know, it's a shame for both of us).

Congratulation, you've missed the whole point.

I think he must have mistaken my position for yours.

[stoc]

I just wish that some people could just play the game and enjoy it rather than always trying to get it modified with thier non stop whine posts. Spend less time on the forums and more time ingame and maybe you would learn to enjoy it as is. Just a thought.

[stoc]

Hanging by a thread and about to get closed due to low subscription base?

The game is in this percieved state not for the reasons you mention but rather because people get bored for lack of content. I think the lack of content has a great deal to do with the minority outcry for continual uneeded game changes.

[Borror0]

I think the lack of content has a great deal to do with the minority outcry for continual uneeded game changes.

False. The lack of content is due to the low subscription base which is due to flawed design.

If you want more content, we've got to increase the subscription base and that is done by improving the game.

[Angelus_dead]

The game is in this percieved state not for the reasons you mention but rather because people get bored for lack of content. I think the lack of content has a great deal to do with the minority outcry for continual uneeded game changes.

Whether or not a certain proposal is good or bad is a separate and simpler question than what its priority should be among all the things you could possibly change.

It's totally true that high-level content (and balance) is a more urgent concern than than adjusting the gameplay experience in low/mid level quests, but that doesn't mean twinking is invalid as a topic of conversation.

False. The lack of content is due to the low subscription base which is due to flawed design.

Reduced budget is part of the reason, but being foolish with the budget they had also contributed. There was far too much addition of low/mid level quests when higher-level missions were what was needed. (Of course, the incorrect emphasis on the wrong level of content can itself be classified as "flawed design")

[stoc]

False. The lack of content is due to the low subscription base which is due to flawed design.

If you want more content, you've got to increase your subscription base and that is done by improving your game.

This is where you have missed the bus. All the changes various aspects of the game over time have taken developer coding time. I think we can agree on this. This time could have been redirected toward new content. Therefore to say that the lack of content is because of a low player base you would be wrong. Everyone that I know who has left this game did not leave because it has some "flawed design" they left because of, as you put it, "the same old content". I therefore conclude that if you would just keep your novel ideas to yourself or go out and create your own game that we would have more content and therefore more subscriptions.

[Borror0]

All the changes various aspects of the game over time have taken developer coding time.

Those changes enhanced gameplay (for the most part) and were desired by a portion of the playerbase (or a potential part of a future playerbase).

The real waste, as Angelus_dead put it, is the quests that are added at low levels.

Everyone that I know who has left this game did not leave because it has some "flawed design"

If the worry was the people leaving the game, you would sort of have a point.

The problem is the players not subscribing.

[Angelus_dead]

Therefore to say that the lack of content is because of a low player base you would be wrong.

That is obviously and provably wrong, as the rate of new, successful modules clearly went down as the population got smaller.

Everyone that I know who has left this game did not leave because it has some "flawed design" they left because of, as you put it, "the same old content".

Your experience is clearly incomplete.

[stoc]

Those changes enhanced gameplay (for the most part) and were desired by a very small portion of the playerbase (or a potential part of a future playerbase).

The real waste, as Angelus_dead put it, is the quests that are added at low levels.

If the worry was the people leaving the game, you would have a point.

The problem is the players not subscribing.

The old addage of "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". There is a lot of wisdom in this old saying. If Turbine is not worried about people leaving the game then that is the problem in a nutshell. I do not believe this to be the case. For every one that leaves dissatified you have a good number that will not even give the game a chance because "well my buddy x used to play it but said it sucked so he quit" vs the one player that trys it and decides "I don't have a cool sword like that guy so I'm not going to play that game".

Oh and I fixed the first part of your post in red.

[Borror0]

The old addage of "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush".

You are incorrectly assuming that I disagree with the adage.

Another adage to keep in mind is "do not put all your eggs in the same basket".

[stoc]

You are incorrectly assuming that I disagree.

Well I am glad to see we agree on something.

[eonfreon]

Did you also want it to not devolve into a "get rid of twinking" thread? The reason I say that is because I think spending time on balancing twinking is not necessary, when the best solution is right there.

Twinking ruins the game, and is no doubt responsible for a lot of player boredom. In the no-twink static group I play in, my character actually uses Miasma's Fang, and trading stuff to Yannick, Davyd and Golldscuttle is exciting because we wonder if we're gonna get a weapon of lesser bane for the "wants one of them" collectibles.

Some have claimed that the change to the way CON damage works has taken the "loot excitement" out of the game, because now a wounding weapon of puncturing won't be a big deal any more (setting aside for the moment the reasonableness of that position). You want to put loot excitement in the game (which is not the point of your thread, I know), make it so your character can't use anything but what it finds in quests, gets as end rewards or gets in trade for collectibles.

I have to both agree and disagree.
Yes, it is fun to enjoy the content, completely, or nearly so, untwinked.
And it is fun to blow through low-mid content twinked to the gills.
The difference comes in how I interact with others while engaged in different playstyles.
Since I never liked the unexpected UberGod Zergmeister taking over the group I am careful not to do this on my Fully Twinked "Perfectly" (at this moment, until I get nerfed LOL) Built Toon.
I'll either solo or join a PowerGroup.
On the flip side, on a Untwinked, pretty much use only what I can find, I shy away from certain groups and I'm not so keen to Solo Elite that's for sure.
I'll still send some money and supplies to my untwinked toon, mostly "just in case".
"Just in case" = I really like the group I'm in but we've bitten off more than we can chew, or the Dice Gods have been particularly harsh, and I'm willing to hand everyone a few CMW pots, some Remove Curse pots, etc- even simple elemental resist pots- most are what I've found but yeah I'll "cheat" and pull up consumables and stuff that I would not normally be able to afford, especially to prevent a wipe - that can frustrate anyone- new or old.
Not that I think failure will necessarily turn anyone off.
Recently I joined a PUG group, on my 4th LVL Paladin that, clicked and worked together well. 4-6 were our levels- so I was the "lowbee" and I was untwinked still using the Ember Great axe.
Everyone knew what they were doing and we had a completely new player who immediately let us all know that this was his first toon ever. HE had been grouped with the leader and they had apparently struck up a "friendship".
Long story short, after a few quests we have good enough about our abilities to do STK elite.
We failed; our Rogue had family things to take care of and he would be back as soon as possible.
He tried to get us to the fire trap before he had to leave, but he left just before the firetrap.
We could not get through it without a Rogue or an "Evasion" build.
We tried and tried, constantly recalling and reentering. I tried using every pot I could afford, because I had exhausted my "Bonus Starter Fund".
We failed, couldn't get thru. All we needed was 1 to make it and get every1 to that shrine.
Didn't happen, I even considered logging to another guy and sending more funds and stuff to my Lowbee, but I just ran out of time.
We failed, but the new player still had fun, and thanked us all for "sticking it out", he wasn't new to MMO's and he knew enough to appreciate folks who played and had fun and taught him stuff, and didn't curse and get angry at a loss.
Guess I just wanted to show an example of different playstyles, and how I prefer any rules that govern "twinking" to allow for different playstyles.
That's why I can behind the OP's ideas of modifying it, as opposed to simply disallowing it.
Yes I agree that untwinking will in theory add "life" to your game.
AS an option that's great- in your group it's easy enough, among your friends, to "control" your "campaign" within DDO.
But I've been playing awhile.
I don't want to play that way ALL the TIME.
I like the variety and I also like blasting thru the content to level some strange build I've come with to cap, checking him at endgame, and if I don't like him, I delete him.
Him I like him, he joins the "gang".
If I really like him, I wind up playing him almost exclusively for a year or so LOL.

P.S.
I'm still in favor of these ideas- and folks don't worry they are just IDEAS.
If Borr had the power to do this he would've already and to heck with your objections (at least till his Boss got sick of the complaints ).
It would be a lot cooler if you want to say "No don't like it" or "I think you should change this value or that" instead of "Sit down and Shut Up".
I'm pretty sure Borr's sitting as he types and I don't think words are passing through his lips at that moment anyway .

[ShaeNightbird]

I have both twinked and untwinked characters. I find there's challenge involved in running both sorts, it's just different challenges, that's all. The only thing that ruins the game for me is people trying to tell me what to do, how to play, how not to play, run this quest this way or else you will be responsible for everyone's ultimate dooooom, etc. The game doesn't wreck the game for me. People wreck the game for me. Meh.


When I want extra challenge, I play my untwinked characters. When I want to slaughter everything in the zone, I have my twinkie. I find that gear helpful at higher levels. I'll see what happens with my untwinked lowbies as they progress through the game. In my experience, untwinked characters do seem to fare better in a full group environment (obviously), twinked characters solo/duo more effectively. Time will tell. I'm glad I have options.

[stoc]

I have both twinked and untwinked characters. I find there's challenge involved in running both sorts, it's just different challenges, that's all. The only thing that ruins the game for me is people trying to tell me what to do, how to play, how not to play, run this quest this way or else you will be responsible for everyone's ultimate dooooom, etc. The game doesn't wreck the game for me. People wreck the game for me. Meh.


When I want extra challenge, I play my untwinked characters. When I want to slaughter everything in the zone, I have my twinkie. I find that gear helpful at higher levels. I'll see what happens with my untwinked lowbies as they progress through the game. In my experience, untwinked characters do seem to fare better in a full group environment (obviously), twinked characters solo/duo more effectively. Time will tell. I'm glad I have options.

/signed