Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[Do'Urden]

It's about making the game challenging, not slower. Different things.

Being able to progress faster is fine, but being unchallenged is not (as it means you are utterly bored).

I like it better when you put casual player instead of new player. It made the point more absurd.

My opinion is only absurd to the extent that it opposes yours.

Changing the game to challenge veteran players in low level quests is meaningless and trivial activity from the standpoint of game health. Furthermore, such changes would also negatively impact new players regardless of what handouts you give them.

[branmakmuffin]

Which goes back to the theory that a reward for some large amount of favor should let you roll a new character at level 6 to 9.

Fact 1: Many established players with new characters want to hurry up and reach the higher-level quests that interest them.
Fact 2: As shown in this thread, many of those players feel that their seniority entitles them to hugely overpower the low-level quests.

If you take the position that the desire in Fact 2 should be respected and upheld, then one might as well go all the way and declare that the player has earned the right to auto-win low level quests without even walking to the dungeon. He gets a lump sum of XP and favor, and can proceed to what he wants to play, without interfering with the enjoyment of someone who is taking it slow.

Obviously there are certain downsides to that proposal (and then there are other changes that would fix them, etc etc)

Eliminating twinking (including money) would put a serious dent in Fact 2. It would also slow down character advancement, thus partly solving the problem of obsessive players burning through new content before the ink is dry.

As stated before, binding everything to the character would also eliminate plat farming.

[Angelus_dead]

New players leveling slower is totally acceptable (and arguable better) but them being far more challenge is not.

When you bumble around in all the side tunnels and fight extraneous mobs so that the quest goes 5x longer, there isn't a compensatory 5x increase in shrine density, so the challenge (expressed as Threats per Resource) increases.

When you stick to the shortest-path of a quest and face 70 mobs/shrine, you're not only doing it faster but also easier than if you noodled around and fought 110 mobs/shrine.

For some extreme examples of that, look at Shadow Knight, Shadow Crypt, or Wizard-King. One could plant the blame for this on the quest designers, but it would be difficult to change retroactively. (Plans have been announced, but I'm dubious)

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I dont think this really levels the playing field at all.

Twinking goes on at many levels. From that +1 flaming longsword to ingredients. Your powergamer is still going to have more loot/plat to spread around, my level 1 barb is going to have rarer, better gear than the dude that signed on last night, regardless of what falls out of a chest.

War Beads, no ML +2 CON necklace...50k plat...no problem, now my barb has a 24 CON at level 1...cause of the +2 CON tome I sent to him....

Yeah, this might give lowbies a lil more cash, but with more cash comes higher prices. If I know a lowbie now has an average of 100k gold to throw around guess what Im gonna do to that +1 Icey Burst of PG khopesh? The cash side would even itself out.

As for pulling better gear...ok, so they get a +1 flamie sword of tendon slice faster, but they are stil largley dependant on actual pulls rather than AH/Vendor's....my lowbie isn't.

Hopefully Im on the same page as ya Bor, cause ts very late and I really only skimmed the first three pages...

[Angelus_dead]

As stated before, binding everything to the character would also eliminate plat farming.

Yes, but I think Borror0 is looking for a solution that's plausible to add to an existing game, as opposed to one that would only have been accepted if already active from the start.

[Angelus_dead]

War Beads, no ML +2 CON necklace...50k plat...no problem

There was a suggestion to make it easier to pull your own war beads.

now my barb has a 24 CON at level 1...cause of the +2 CON tome I sent to him....

That's something already removed in mod 9.

[Do'Urden]

Hello. When players have to impose their own rules on top of a game system to make the game fun, that doesn't count as an endorsement of the game system as it exists.

I would change the above in yellow italics as follows...

Players choose to introduce their own rules into a game framework to make the game more stimulating to them.

Hmmm....sounds like D&D to me. There are other MMOs available that dumb it all down for the masses.

[branmakmuffin]

Yes, but I think Borror0 is looking for a solution that's plausible to add to an existing game, as opposed to one that would only have been accepted if already active from the start.

Yes, I know Borror0's notion is to re-balance the game in a way which can be accomplished relatively easily now.

Players choose to introduce their own rules into a game framework to make the game more stimulating to them.

Hmmm....sounds like D&D to me. There are other MMOs available that dumb it all down for the masses.

Are you implying DDO is not dumbed down for the masses?

[Beherit_Baphomar]

There was a suggestion to make it easier to pull your own war beads.


That's something already removed in mod 9.

You're taking what Im saying very literally.

Replace War Beads with +1 FB Khopesh of PG RR Dwarf...or anything else you can think of thats rare....what Im saying is if I have the plat/time then Im going to twink harder and better than anyone that's new to the game....the playing field will never be level, not even close to level.

Yeah, tome's have ML7 now, but again, you're being too specific. So he has a +1 tome in every stat, 32points and no ML+2 items....and Ive ground Delera's for breakfast coffee...oh and TR...and WW....

Whatever you 'give' to new players you're giving 10x that to powergamers...

[Angelus_dead]

Players choose to introduce their own rules into a game framework to make the game more stimulating to them.

Because new players cannot be expected to have the knowledge or assertiveness to impose their own rules in place of how gameplay proceeds organically, relying on player-initiated restraint to improve the game design is minimally helpful in extending the subscriber base.

I would change the above in yellow italics as follows...
Players choose to introduce their own rules into a game framework to make the game more stimulating to them.
Hmmm....sounds like D&D to me. There are other MMOs available that dumb it all down for the masses.

Let me know how I can introduce those rules and cause them to apply to every other account on the server, and then you'll have a valid point.

Oh wait! That's exactly what Borror0 attempted to do by asking the devs to change some rules...

[Angelus_dead]

Replace War Beads with +1 FB Khopesh of PG RR Dwarf...or anything else you can think of thats rare....

There was also a suggestion to increase ML for items you didn't personally loot, reducing the level delta at which those items can be twinked.

Whatever you 'give' to new players you're giving 10x that to powergamers...

Not if it's something the powergamers already had anyway.

[Angelus_dead]

Eliminating twinking (including money) would put a serious dent in Fact 2.

The suggestion I made when DDO was about a year old was that all magic items should have been Bind To Party. That means that if someone was in the instance when it dropped, you could give it to him permanently. Otherwise, you could lend things to other party members and they'll come back when one of you drops group.

[krud]

I have twinked out some of my new builds every step of the way. I have also leveled some up using only the gear they pulled (up thru the midlevels), as well as played permadeath. In every case I soloed a large portion of the early quests, and found very little difference between my twinked characters and untwinked characters. By far the biggest factor differentiating newbs from veterans is knowledge of the game. Twinking is a much smaller contribution, especially at the lower levels. Plus with korthos, newbs are able to get geared out a lot better than before. Twinking doesn't really make an impact until level 8 or 9, when the good loot really starts to matter (stuff that an average newb won't have, e.g. chaosguard, bloodstone, +5mith armor, stat damagers, bursters, etc).

I'm afraid altering the loot distribution won't make much of a difference.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

There was also a suggestion to increase ML for items you didn't personally loot, reducing the level delta at which those items can be twinked.

- Ah...thats actually quite nifty.

Not if it's something the powergamers already had anyway.

I dont really see how this would help then. While a newb will run Deleras, for example, twice in 3 months, the powergamer has milked that quest dry for anything worth anything...so the gap stays the same.

And doesn't all this lessen the excitement in the game? I remember running around with my +2 longsword looking at all the cool acid/icey/flamie swords thinking I wonder when I'll pull one of those...I remember being given a lesson in burst weapons then being handed two khopesh and being amazed at the damage...isn't that a core part of the game? The loot being rare? (At least it is when yer new to the game.)

[branmakmuffin]

The suggestion I made when DDO was about a year old was that all magic items should have been Bind To Party. That means that if someone was in the instance when it dropped, you could give it to him permanently. Otherwise, you could lend things to other party members and they'll come back when one of you drops group.

The first time I played DDO (in late March or early April '06) and realized players could give loot to other characters, I knew it was a bad idea. One of the players I started playing with got to cap (10) very quickly, leaving the rest of us behind. Then when he made new characters, he was able to twink them significantly, vastly outstripping our characters who had no sugar daddies (I remember a newly rolled lowbie of his dual-wielding true chaos scimitars when the best weapon my character had was a +3 rapier).

And doesn't all this lessen the excitement in the game? I remember running around with my +2 longsword looking at all the cool acid/icey/flamie swords thinking I wonder when I'll pull one of those...I remember being given a lesson in burst weapons then being handed two khopesh and being amazed at the damage...isn't that a core part of the game? The loot being rare? (At least it is when yer new to the game.)

I must be missing your point. Twinking lessens "loot excitement." So do you think twinking is good or bad for the game?

[Do'Urden]

Because new players cannot be expected to have the knowledge or assertiveness to impose their own rules in place of how gameplay proceeds organically, relying on player-initiated restraint to improve the game design is minimally helpful in extending the subscriber base.

Let me know how I can introduce those rules and cause them to apply to every other account on the server, and then you'll have a valid point.

I'll give you a little secret free of charge. This is how DDO works today.

DDO is one game and many at the same time accommodating different playstyles and preferences. You wouldn't continue playing PnP with a player that didn't play by your rules. You don't have to in DDO.

[Borror0]

Twinking doesn't really make an impact until level 8 or 9, when the good loot really starts to matter

...which is over half of the leveling of a character. Thus, I don't see how you could deem twinking an insignificant problem.

(stuff that an average newb won't have, e.g. chaosguard, bloodstone, +5mith armor, stat damagers, bursters, etc).

I think you need to reread the OP.

I dont really see how this would help then. While a newb will run Deleras, for example, twice in 3 months, the powergamer has milked that quest dry for anything worth anything...so the gap stays the same.

If a +1 Acid Longsword was added to Waterworks as an end reward, new players would get a bonus. Twinked characters would say "Meh, I already have +1 Flaming."

The gap is reduced, however.

And doesn't all this lessen the excitement in the game?

From my experience, getting cool loot is cool even if it is a static reward. The important part is that there must always be room from improvement.

And as bran alluded to, my suggestions allows veterans to experience "loot excitement" while leveling a new character.

[Angelus_dead]

I'll give you a little secret free of charge. This is how DDO works today.

No, I will tell you something: DDO today is in serious trouble and probably won't survive as it is.

[Borror0]

I'll give you a little secret free of charge. This is how DDO works today.

I suggest you to read the first sentence of the post you quoted a second time.

[Do'Urden]

No, I will tell you something: DDO today is in serious trouble and probably won't survive as it is.

On that we agree. On the reasons / root cause and solutions we do not. I'm sure you'll get over it as will I.