Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[Borror0]

So what you are saying is you want to punish players who have been playing the game for a long period of time

Certainly not. Players who played the game for a long period of time would still be the most advantaged.

I don't know how you've reached that conclusion.

[boldarblood]

People will group because it is more effective.

People would avoid groups with people they do not know. I would rather short man with 1-2 people I know than pug with full group of 6. Because I know the people, know what they are capable of, and would not care if I had to use consumables on a friend. A lot of people would feel the same way. It already happens. Pug clerics are already hard enough to find, would be even more rare.

[Borror0]

Pug clerics are already hard enough to find, would be even more rare.

Clerics having to spend less money on a PUG would mean that there would be more clerics, not less.

[Do'Urden]

There might be some are doing better while untwinked, but those are statistical anomalies.

You have statistics on the performance of untwinked veteran players vs. twinked veteran players? /bow I believe you are strongly overestimating the impact of twink gear and underestimating the impact of the player behind the toon.

I don't get the point of wanting to slow down a vet who's running WW for the 200th time. This player most likely has zero interest in being challenged at low levels and it IS a race to cap / gear out their latest build. This player is most likely not going to be compatible with a new player. I accept that but I don't think that killing that ability is an acceptable solution. You're doing nothing to truly help the new player.

I LOVE the fact that, in DDO, you can choose your own pace. Nobody is forcing the vet to zerg and nobody is forcing the new player to dungeon crawl. The strong differentiator, however, is acquired knowledge and ability.

Seriously, you're not going to slow down the vets and if you make the game hard enough to do so you're going to KILL the new player at the same time.

[Borror0]

You have statistics on the performance of untwinked veteran players vs. twinked veteran players? /bow

I'll admit that was poorly worded. By doing better I meant "equipped better".

It makes sense if you quote the whole passage:

It matters. If a character starts with a sugar daddy funding him, he will be better equipped than someone who is not funded by sugar daddy.

There might be some are doing better while untwinked, but those are statistical anomalies.

Trimming a post to only quote the core is important, but be careful to avoid quote-mining.

I don't get the point of wanting to slow down a vet who's running WW for the 200th time.

It's about making the game challenging, not slower. Different things.

Being able to progress faster is fine, but being unchallenged is not (as it means you are utterly bored).

Seriously, you're not going to slow down the vets and if you make the game hard enough to do so you're going to KILL the new player at the same time.

I like it better when you put casual player instead of new player. It made the point more absurd.

[boldarblood]

Clerics having to spend less money on a PUG would mean that there would be more clerics, not less.

I just dont see it happening. I see less pug clerics, alot of cleric already run out of mana and have to go into consumables. Is this right, no. Of course not.

But take away consumables and they are less likely to join a pug. They would guild run only.

[baddax]

As a new player fresh off the boat to Stormreach, with no funds and no relevant knowledde to DDO, i found experienced players and looked up to them as beacons of what could be.

There were many names and faces some still play others dont but their knowledge and in some cases loot are still appreciated. I still remember reaching level 10 on my first character and an Uber player who i grouped with once or twice (who will remane nameless) took me to his market bank and helped me stock my very limited selection of weapons. Things that i could not afford and only dreamed about owning seen only in glimpses on the AH.

Today i still have those i look up to as examples of elite players. Some of which post builds and accomplishments on the forums and fellow guildies. Who accomplish the impossibe and give me things tro strive for. Glimmers of understaning and pieces of information found from conversations between Elite players and posts on forums are invaulable to myself and others. Trails blazed by past Elite players to be improved upon or modified to new ends. However due to oversized egos and such i wont name names, suffice it to say that there are many such players/guildes that i still look up to and give me achievements to aspire to.

[Borror0]

I truely doubt that.

As it stands now, clerics are not forced to use mnemonic enhancers. Neither would they be to use Heal scrolls if they were removed from vendors.

If you prefer, I could say that bards are not forced to use Wall of Fire and Blade Barrier scrolls any more.

[baddax]

Certainly not. Players who played the game for a long period of time would still be the most advantaged.

I don't know how you've reached that conclusion.

As it stands, there is a huge difference between a player fresh out of Korthos and a player who has been around for a while.

Not only is does a veteran have more skills and more knowledge about the game, but he also have loot far better than what a new player could ever dream of. The result is that some players can solo quests that takes a full party for some to complete. That is unhealthy as it makes balancing quests nearly impossible and has a potential to huge imbalances within a party.

My translation.... There is to wide a gap between new and experienced players. Vetran players have more skill and better loot making game balance difficult (impossible?). Thus we need to narrow this gap by taking away some of the advantages of elite players.

[baddax]

You have statistics on the performance of untwinked veteran players vs. twinked veteran players? /bow I believe you are strongly overestimating the impact of twink gear and underestimating the impact of the player behind the toon.

I don't get the point of wanting to slow down a vet who's running WW for the 200th time. This player most likely has zero interest in being challenged at low levels and it IS a race to cap / gear out their latest build. This player is most likely not going to be compatible with a new player. I accept that but I don't think that killing that ability is an acceptable solution. You're doing nothing to truly help the new player.

I LOVE the fact that, in DDO, you can choose your own pace. Nobody is forcing the vet to zerg and nobody is forcing the new player to dungeon crawl. The strong differentiator, however, is acquired knowledge and ability.

Seriously, you're not going to slow down the vets and if you make the game hard enough to do so you're going to KILL the new player at the same time.

/ agree.
it would be difficult (impossibe?)to do challange elite gamers and not totally destroy new players.

[Borror0]

My translation.... There is to wide a gap between new and experienced players. Vetran players have more skill and better loot making game balance difficult (impossible?). Thus we need to narrow this gap by taking away some of the advantages of elite players.

That analysis does not allow to conclude that I want to punish veterans.

Thus we need to narrow this gap by taking away some of the advantages of elite players.

Perhaps you should take a look at the OP a second time as most are improvements to the new players, rather than taking away from veterans.

/ agree.
it would be difficult (impossibe?)to do challange elite gamers and not totally destroy new players.

DDO has three difficulty settings. If other MMOs can pull it off with two, I am sure three will suffice for us.

[branmakmuffin]

Kinda like the whole con change because of w/p some peeps pulled em others didn't and the have not's cried to the end of time.

Put that tired old notion to rest, once and for all. Complaints by w/p "have nots" (assuming such people did in fact complain in significant numbers), had nothing to do with the change to the way CON damage works.

Look at the forums. Most complaining is done by the power-gaming (real or wannabe) self-styled "elite" who, at the merest mention of changes they view as "nerfs" to the equipment they "worked" so "hard" to "earn," cry like little children whose favorite toy got broken.

[BLAKROC]

Put that tired old notion to rest, once and for all. Complaints by w/p "have nots" (assuming such people did in fact complain in significant numbers), had nothing to do with the change to the way CON damage works.

Look at the forums. Most complaining is done by the power-gaming (real or wannabe) self-styled "elite" who, at the merest mention of changes they view as "nerfs" to the equipment they "worked" so "hard" to "earn," cry like little children whose favorite toy got broken.

/yawn

[branmakmuffin]

/yawn

So we can assume what I posted is so obvious as to be totally lacking in controversy. Excellent.

[Angelus_dead]

A lot has to do with the experience, but there are far more resting on the gear than what DDO players like to think.

Additionally, a big part of the advantage of an experienced player is just a high-level knowledge of where to go and where to avoid:
"Don't do Kobold Assault, it's an unrewarding timesink. Do Ringleader instead."
"Don't go down the hall. Jump over this box instead"
"Don't go through those doors, they lead to pointless monsters including some casters. Bear left and go for the end"

That kind of knowledge can represent more than a 5x speed increase for advancement, because DDO's quests have a lot of possible side-paths with no real XP or loot reward attached to them. But the key is that new players can fully benefit from that knowledge just by having one experienced party-member.

What they cannot do is survive and fight as well as a guy who has the +1 khopesh of lesser giantbane, the +2 mithral fp, and stacks of 100 sof, bark, resist, bull, bear, cat, owl, and cure pots. A person who was already skilled at videogames in general could follow along with everything an experienced player is doing, but his character sheet just can't handle it. The result will be either (a) release and drop group, (b) soulstone ride-along, (c) mooch XP while staying out of danger, or (d) finagle a donation of hundreds of potions.

Option (d) can be classified as a kind of player-initiated twink-balancing, but it's not healthy for a game design to rely on that type of thing.

[branmakmuffin]

Additionally, a big part of the advantage of an experienced player is just a high-level knowledge of where to go and where to avoid:
"Don't do Kobold Assault, it's an unrewarding timesink. Do Ringleader instead."
"Don't go down the hall. Jump over this box instead"
"Don't go through those doors, they lead to pointless monsters including some casters. Bear left and go for the end"

That kind of knowledge can represent more than a 5x speed increase for advancement, because DDO's quests have a lot of possible side-paths with no real XP or loot reward attached to them. But the key is that new players can fully benefit from that knowledge just by having one experienced party-member.

Part of the problem is that spoiling is viewed by some (presumably including you) as a benefit. It might seem a short-term benefit to the player, but it's a long-term detriment to the game (although nothing can be done to stop spoiling).

[Borror0]

That kind of knowledge can represent more than a 5x speed increase for advancement

It's important to differentiate speed from challenge, IMO.

New players leveling slower is totally acceptable (and arguable better) but them being far more challenge is not.

[...] because DDO's quests have a lot of possible side-paths with no real XP or loot reward attached to them.

I heard that optional are worth doing (or are at least more rewarding) in Module 9.

I have not run enough quest on Lamannia to confirm that, however.

[Do'Urden]

Additionally, a big part of the advantage of an experienced player is just a high-level knowledge of where to go and where to avoid:
"Don't do Kobold Assault, it's an unrewarding timesink. Do Ringleader instead."
"Don't go down the hall. Jump over this box instead"
"Don't go through those doors, they lead to pointless monsters including some casters. Bear left and go for the end"

That kind of knowledge can represent more than a 5x speed increase for advancement, because DDO's quests have a lot of possible side-paths with no real XP or loot reward attached to them. But the key is that new players can fully benefit from that knowledge just by having one experienced party-member.

What they cannot do is survive and fight as well as a guy who has the +1 khopesh of lesser giantbane, the +2 mithral fp, and stacks of 100 sof, bark, resist, bull, bear, cat, owl, and cure pots. A person who was already skilled at videogames in general could follow along with everything an experienced player is doing, but his character sheet just can't handle it. The result will be either (a) release and drop group, (b) soulstone ride-along, (c) mooch XP while staying out of danger, or (d) finagle a donation of hundreds of potions.

Option (e) Group with players of similar experience level and acquire the same knowledge and experience that accounts for most of the gap and at a pace that suits your style. DDO already allows for this possibility.

[Angelus_dead]

Part of the problem is that spoiling is viewed by some (presumably including you) as a benefit.

Which goes back to the theory that a reward for some large amount of favor should let you roll a new character at level 6 to 9.

Fact 1: Many established players with new characters want to hurry up and reach the higher-level quests that interest them.
Fact 2: As shown in this thread, many of those players feel that their seniority entitles them to hugely overpower the low-level quests.

If you take the position that the desire in Fact 2 should be respected and upheld, then one might as well go all the way and declare that the player has earned the right to auto-win low level quests without even walking to the dungeon. He gets a lump sum of XP and favor, and can proceed to what he wants to play, without interfering with the enjoyment of someone who is taking it slow.

Obviously there are certain downsides to that proposal (and then there are other changes that would fix them, etc etc)

[Angelus_dead]

Option (e) Group with players of similar experience level and acquire the same knowledge and experience that accounts for most of the gap and at a pace that suits your style. DDO already allows for this possibility.

Hello. When players have to impose their own rules on top of a game system to make the game fun, that doesn't count as an endorsement of the game system as it exists.