Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[Angelus_dead]

but I don't know how these guidelines have any effect on those of us who've played and already acquired our gear.

Possibly what he's thinking of is that it will be harder for your L16 characters to loot a bunch of rare items to send to any new alts you might create, causing those characters to be much more relatively powerful than similarly-leveled characters of newer players.

Of course, that was the objective: overpowered lowbie alts is not an appropriate reward for a high-level character. If the game designers really decide that a player has earned a reward of easily skipping through the low and middle levels, then he should just allow her to start new characters at level 5-9.

[eonfreon]

Yeah I went back and read more closely.

As I understand it very little changes for Vets in regards to twinking.

Other than Thieve's Tools and CSW Pots - that'll change.
I don't think this part is particularly needed, I can even explain what I mean from a practical stand point, but maybe I'll get to that later.

Now as a consequence of your proposed changes/modification the Early Level Game will Change, differently across the board of course, but to a degree that consumables, random loot, and such appear quicker.

Effect:
1)Vets who choose to twink out and gear up to the hilt may still do so (with some limits but no big deal- come on yes I can make a case to keep +5 Thieves Tool free-for-alls but not to a degree that it's worrisome enough to me).
2)Anyone running Low Level Quests will acquire "stuff" at a higher accelerated pace than when "we" did it
a) therefore new players will have cooler stuff quicker
B)Older Vet players too, but most will still generally not automatically find any better stuff than their awaiting twink gear and stuff

As a consequence:
1) Newer players might experience a slightly more exciting gameplay and may stumble across something that allows them to keep up should they get in a zerg party- just as an extreme example.
2)Older Players are about the same although Endgame will of course change as the domino effect from your ideas take place.
3) Quests that had been designed around the old formula of resource/power that tried to balance Norm-Elite, Casual-Powergamer, Noob-Uber (which is all) will have to be re-scaled. Since re-scaling is presumably easier than re-creating everything from scratch, it can be done without excessive "messing with what aint broken", since points of view differ on this regard.
4) Vets who slept thru the sonic speed reroll meteoric rise to Endgame Cap will still sleep thru sonic speed reroll meteoric rise to Endgame Cap.
*Hey that's someone job, don't worry guys, we'll "get" ours.
Hopefully it won't be all that content we finally see becasue we come back 3 years later LOL.

What I mean by 3) like you say Borr, it may inevitably make quests easier.
So some things get loosened up, other things tightened up so to speak to compensate.
So far so good.....
I'll think up some disagreements soon.
No way u're gonna nerf me when I aint looking.

[The10man]

Not signed not now way not no how. You play this way if you want I dont wish to. Forcing this would be very very bad.

[maddmatt70]

I think a far bigger issue is knowledge of the quests i.e. which to run and how to run them. If your goal is trying to stop zerging for lowbies or something you will not succeed. You do not need to twink anything really and can zerge quite easily to level 8. Level 8 -11 I have the most trouble non twink because the house p buffs are a pain to get when you are in far away from House P and you start to need those power 5 weapons when you hit the gianthold. When I get the minos helm at level 11 my hit points usually go way up and with heavy fort and a couple of power 5 weapons I can hit level 12 (more weapons) and level 13 (close to end game) without too much trouble.

[Minor_Threat]

if DDO cared about twinking they wouldn't have a mail system or be introducing the new shared bank accounts in MOD9.

[Borror0]

I'll add another one to the OP:

7. Change the minimum level for newly created Green Steel items from 12 to 18.
While now Green Steel equipment is end game equipment, it will not be the same in the future. In fact, in the future, Green Steel equipment will act as uber twinking gear by letting old time players mailing large ingredients to their level 14-16 character to craft themselves incredibly powerful equipment for the level.

[gizmos199]

every ones got all these grate ideas on how the game should be played .
i think the game is fine . i like my tweeked toons . it took me 2 years to get them that way . I would like to keep them like that .

borroro you think that the new players need moer help . they DON'T . what they need is to spend moer time on newb iland with there min level 1 tweeked gear and learn how to play there toons . . they need to STOP beeing power level by outher plays .. cuz when they hit my groups and they have no clue how to play thier toons i insult them and if they quit over it i will not care .
point i am makeing . Dont give them a faster way to level 16 . gim me a faster way too 16 . y me ? cuz i put in the time . i have played all the quest over and over . cuz i am sick of all the low end **** and i want to be 16 in 5 days .

i power leveled a few newb's i would say about 15 of them , from level 1 -16 in a few days . some where on trial accounts . none of them play any moer . y would anyone wanna play a game where they caped a toon in a week .

[maddmatt70]

I'll add another one to the OP:
7. Change the minimum level for newly create Green Steel items from 12 to 18.
While now Green Steel equipment is end game equipment, it will not be the same in the future. In fact, in the future, Green Steel equipment will act as uber twinking gear by letting old time players mailing large ingredients to their level 14-16 character to craft themselves incredibly powerful equipment for the level.

This does not sound like you are talking about lowbies but rather middies. This is all aimed at level 8 - 16. Most true new players are not new when they hit level 8 er the biggest bang for Turbines buck is probably level 1-6. That is when they can retain the most players.

[eonfreon]

Guys, ther's little anti-twinking to Borro's proposed "measures" LOL.
It just gives a as-yet-undetermined chance that a person who does not twink- don't wanna/just started/unlucky slob - will find something better than-he-would-if-he-played-the-game-today.
Us Vets will still enjoy the Power and Prestige afforded us by our hard-earned spent Playing a Video Game.
We can still have every single toy and the kitchen sink waiting for us when we recap, whether it's a mad dash free for all 1 day Cap LOL, which I enjoy as much and sometimes more then the next guy or it's the slow dungeon sneaky taken on more than I can chew smell the roses style, which I also enjoy as much if not more than the next guy, or any way in between.

[Borror0]

Dont give them a faster way to level 16

I think you missed the part where I said to make quests harder as well.

[Borror0]

Most true new players are not new when they hit level 8 er the biggest bang for Turbines buck is probably level 1-6. That is when they can retain the most players.

True, but that is a rather simple fix that will level the field a bit.

I don't think I need to explain to you how huge the difference of power between Green Steel and non-Green Steel is.

[Do'Urden]

I don't get it.
What is the nature of your objection?
It's about lowbee gear that may help out new players.
I didn't read too much into specifics, that whole -2 ML stuff and all is about rules and checks and balances I'm not qualified to really comment much, unless I acknowledge that is comes from my gut feelings and not "experience", but I don't know how these guidelines have any effect on those of us who've played and already acquired our gear.

Unless the simple fact that anything that "may bring them up" will also "bring me down"?
I'm gonna read the Op again, make sure Borr aint taking MY gear and giving it away somehow.

Just the opposite of that last part. I want new players to get better through acquired knowledge and experience (i.e. learning). The ones that stick around will have a stronger bond to the game as opposed to the generic MMO player who starts a new account, blasts through the content in a month or two, and leaves for another MMO because it's too easy and/or boring.

I strongly believe that this game has already done too much in the way of handouts to new players starting with the Korthos Island / NPE. It's already flat out too easy to level without twinking of any sort. Dumbing down DDO is actually a barrier to closing the skill / knowledge gap in a meaningful way that leads to account retention and net subscriber growth. A brand new player can more easily level and acquire great gear along the way without having any idea how to use it. The death penalty certainly wasn't perfect but it was a useful speed brake for players without the skill, knowledge and...to a lesser extent...the gear to keep themselves alive and *graduate* to the next level with proficiency.

You see...I'm all for new players coming to DDO and breathing new life into the game but I'm firmly against dumbing it down to the mass market MMO level at the expense of what makes this game special. Character development, combat strategy / tactics, experience meaning something are all elements of what makes DDO a great game, but I can feel that slipping away as time goes on.

That's the nature of my objection.

[eonfreon]

I'll add another one to the OP:

7. Change the minimum level for newly created Green Steel items from 12 to 18.
While now Green Steel equipment is end game equipment, it will not be the same in the future. In fact, in the future, Green Steel equipment will act as uber twinking gear by letting old time players mailing large ingredients to their level 14-16 character to craft themselves incredibly powerful equipment for the level.

Well there was little anti-twinking until you tossed this in.
Don't disagree with this, don't agree neither - why take the big toys away from the big boys (and girls)?
Don't even have a Green Steel completed across 4 Capped 32 Well-Built toon (working on it) so I aint qualified to make judgements really. Maybe later .
Just had to add to my earlier post since this new wrinkle of yours changed the "landscape" and thus my earlier words lost some context.

[Borror0]

Dumbing down DDO

I think you missed the part where I said quests should become harder.

[Angelus_dead]

I think you missed the part where I said to make quests harder as well.

"Make quests harder" is three little words that hide a major amount of work.

Anyway, the real problem here is twofold:
1. Twinked characters are overpowered compared to self-geared characters of the same level.
2. Twinked characters are overpowered compared to quests of the same level.

There are three approaches you could take to solve those problems:
1. Weaken twinked characters, to match the level of self-geared and quests.
2. Strengthen self-geared characters to match the level of twinked, then boost quests to be challenging to both.
3. Eliminate twinked characters, such as by allowing some accounts to start characters at a high level already.

[Borror0]

"Make quests harder" is three little words that hide a major amount of work.

Probably true, but scaling allows them some tweaking without major work (assuming they can adjust the scaling to over 100%). It may be enough.

As it stands, most quests are already too easy (unless you are a wizard, sorcerer or Dex-based character without Weapon Finesse).

[roggane]

I'll add another one to the OP:

7. Change the minimum level for newly created Green Steel items from 12 to 18.
While now Green Steel equipment is end game equipment, it will not be the same in the future. In fact, in the future, Green Steel equipment will act as uber twinking gear by letting old time players mailing large ingredients to their level 14-16 character to craft themselves incredibly powerful equipment for the level.

While I don't mind this argument it is a lvl 17 quest, 18 doesn't seem right.

Also, when you can buy ingredients off the AH....what does it matter if they can be mailed? The shards are what limits ppl from making greensteel, not the ingredients as much.

[Angelus_dead]

Also, when you can buy ingredients off the AH....what does it matter if they can be mailed?

A new player could never afford to bid on even one.

[roggane]

A new player could never afford to bid on even one.

not exactly true, anyone can hit the jackpot on pulls and make money off the ah. and I wouldn't consider anyone lvl 13-16 a "new" player anymore per se.

[Borror0]

While I don't mind this argument it is a lvl 17 quest, 18 doesn't seem right.

At worse, just bump the raid's level to 18 if it troubles the players.

Also, when you can buy ingredients off the AH....what does it matter if they can be mailed? The shards are what limits ppl from making greensteel, not the ingredients as much.

At first, I thought of suggesting that each tier should add to the item's minimum level but that seem a little harder to code.