Suggestions to Balance Twinking

[baddax]

Minority voice.
Most of the folks I play with don't twink until lvl 8 (except for the +2 intel tome)...we just don't stay at that low level for more than a couple or three days, even as casual gamers who play a couple or three hours a day. It doesn't strike me as worthwhile to worry about for as little time as will be spent there by a seasoned player.

The bigger problem, imho, between seasoned players and newer players at lower/mid levels is the intimate knowledge of the quests possessed by the seasoned players. I see no way to balance, in a game mechanic, the knowlege of a person who has run a quest dozens, perhaps hundreds of times with someone who's experiencing it for the first time.

More randomization of dungeons would be one possible solution, however the basic quest would still be the same.

[baddax]

Heya Borr,
Something you said interested me.

You said that Twinking was clearly not intended.

I just want to know where you base this from?
From a Dev I take it?

Because from my POV, joining the game about 1 year in, I have seen very little to suggest that Twinking was not part of the "original" game.

Certainly the Devs decided that certain items should be Rare and "Unique" and bound to a single character.

But since nothing else is Bound only has a ML, it would imply that it can be given to whatever character you want, yours or someone else's.

And, as someone mentioned, the very concept of Twinking has already existed in other MMO's, so I find it hard to believe that twinking blindsided the Devs.

But, maybe it did indeed catch them off-guard; I just want to know.

I would have to say that the fact they are putting minimum levels on tomes lends credence to Borror0's argument.

[baddax]

No one really cares about game balance during the leveling process, balance at endgame is all that matters imo. Being able to twink your characters is not a bad thing imo, spending money on faster and more fun leveling is great if you ask me.
For any good player the first levels are easy as pie anyways, twinking only means some saved time. Alot of people don't even bother to twink their toons until mid levels as the low levels are over so fast anyways.

A new player with korthos gear will be waay behind a veteran in korthos gear, so it doesn't matter if CSW pots gets a min level, or if he will have 1-2 less AC due to new min levels. The new player will still be behind.

What you see as a problem is that skill and knowledge really matters in DDO, even in low levels.
Twinking is only a very small part of the problem.

Not all plaeyers are all about the end game. I know some who love low/mid range content and continuously reroll character to run them up again. Now they may be the minority but i know some who do.

[baddax]

Borror:
Do you really think that the ability to solo those quests is related to gear?

Do you really think that penalizing players that have been around longer than new players is a good thing?

Hey, how about this? Lets have graduated servers where if you have played the game less than one year you are on server A... and if it is between more than 1 year but less than 2 you are on server B and so on. That way no one would ever suffer the trauma of grouping with a veteran play who might have better gear. OMG the humanity!

Lets see. You are a fresh faced lad just about to head out into the world an seek your fortune. You head out to the big town from your father's farm with your pick axe and rusty old shield banged out of a wheelbarrow. You meet a grizzled veteran of many years. He relates stories of dungeons looted and chests plundered over many years adventuring... you decide to group up. You head out of the tavern and as he gathers his gear you see that he has a worn rusty old pick axe and a battered shield made out of a wheelbarrow, JUST LIKE YOU!

Wow, confidence inspiring isn't it. That is what you have to look forward to after many years adventuring? I think I would head back to the farm.

Actuially i dont find this idea as bad as it sounds however i would make it an player selected option.

[baddax]

The plausibility of my statement is sound. Turbine wants to motivate veterans to play new low-level characters because they will retain their interest, replay old content, and keep paying the subscription fees. I know most of my friends wouldn't do it all again if it were very difficult and slow to level-up. Now as for balance, yes the twinks will have more effective gear and thus a numerical advantage to the newbies' characters. However, I must reemphasize that Turbine's ultimate goal is to get all players to play the game more and thus make more money. There probably isn't a huge number of potential new players itching to play a 3-year old game (that's just a guess, but a realistic one imho), so if the existing player-base isn't interested in replaying the low-end content again, the new players (true newbies without a group of friends to join already) might have a really hard time finding enough 6-person groups to run all the low-level quests with- particularly the ones with minimal relative quest rewards.
I must also reemphasize that while the twinkage makes some difference in a character's effectiveness, its that players knowledge and skill that's FAR more valuable in simplifying quests than is their equipment, so you can only really solve the issue with balancing quest experience by not allowing vets to play with newbies at all, and I've already explained why they didn't do that. I think Turbine accepted the costs of potential quest imbalance as worth the benefit of keeping as many people playing the game as possible. Don't forget, Turbine has their own business strategists that likely thought about this a lot more than we have and had apparently concluded that this was the way to go to optimize their financial outlook, so it will probably not be changed significantly in this game.

The defense rests.
-Aeyr

/qft except the last statement. I have no idea if turbine has a business model or in effect even knows what one is. Its possible they are using the "slow and painful death business model" but not many businesses intentionaly do that.

[Angelus_dead]

No one really cares about game balance during the leveling process, balance at endgame is all that matters imo.

That's accurate... but it's a symptom of the problem, not a universal constant. The reason balance doesn't matter before endgame is because you can always get a higher-level character to come in and solve your problems by either feeding you magic items, or simply killing the mob himself.

Being able to twink your characters is not a bad thing imo, spending money on faster and more fun leveling is great if you ask me.

If some people want faster leveling for additional characters, and the devs decide to give it to them, the way to handle it would be to let them simply start at level 6-9. Can't get faster than that.

If some people want more fun leveling, then the devs would have to ask the question about whether it's more fun to be at matching power to the quest, or overpowered. If they decide that matched power is more fun, then they should obstruct twinking. If they go the other way and decide it's better for player characters to have uber power, they should go and give it to all low-level characters, without a need to twink.

What you see as a problem is that skill and knowledge really matters in DDO, even in low levels.

False. Skill differentials are skill differentials. Where it becomes a problem is when the new player joins up with a twinky and follows him through the quest doing all the same things, but gets different results because his inventory just can't compare.

An easy way to see the difference is to look at a group forming for STK or Tangleroot and see if they're looking for a cleric. If they don't want a cleric, it tells you that twinking is involved.

[baddax]

You can't even hang with this wonderful game becuase there is no new content yet you continue to ask for more unneeded changes. I herby petition to have Borror0's forum posting ability revoked until he can play this game he has these "grand ideas" for. My feelings are if you are not a part of the community you have no say. (my definition of community is one who plays not one who posts)

I have also discovered that they are correct. Borror0 will simply attempt to outpost you so that Borror0 has a feeling that Borror0 has won the discussion. There is no getting thru this wall of Borror0's wall of denial no matter how correct you may be.


Borror0 reminds me of a very popular influential man I am sure we can all recall.

"It depends on what the meaning of the words 'is' is." –Bill Clinton, during his 1998 grand jury testimony on the Monica Lewinsky affair


"When I was in England, I experimented with marijuana a time or two, and I didn't like it. I didn't inhale and never tried it again." –Bill Clinton

Lets stick on topic and not go political, i could go on and on with Bushism's.

[Angelus_dead]

The plausibility of my statement is sound. Turbine wants to motivate veterans to play new low-level characters because they will retain their interest, replay old content, and keep paying the subscription fees.

If that was Turbine's objective, they would have provided many more new character slots.

Since they haven't given new slots in ages (which is easy for them to do), clearly they don't have a plan that depends on frequent new alts from old players.

[baddax]

I would be interested to see how much skill affects game play by loading up a lowbe character and seeing how well he does vs's a non twinked experienced players character.

[maddmatt70]

I don't think that twinking is such a huge advantage as people often think it is. I rolled a gimp a couple weeks ago, and was a bit suprised at how easy quests still were, even with my horrible build (barb/rogue/wizard) and no twink gear whatsoever. All new players have to do is get some house P favor and they have access to all the uber buffs they need.. (+4 stat and 30 point resists are nothing to sneeze at for low level characters). Many of the best lowbie items are bound anyways (higher + stat items from tangleroot quest chain, blackwidow bracers, Carnifex, etc etc.). The new Korthos items (esp the bonus to hit items) are uber enough on their own, and wouldn't be replaced by hand me down gear until the mid-levels.

Mostly, the main twink I like for lower level characters is a +2 int tome, but the skill points are hardly game breaking and certainly aren't noticable at lower levels. I could send my lowbies some twink gear, but thats mostly a matter of convinience (GT items for delaras for example, though those items can just be picked up by new players if they run the catacombs series).

The main exception I see is having enough plat to buy haste and barkskin potions, which are a pretty big benefit. Still, new players could just sell a few pure waters, prophesy of khyber tomes, and some other collectables on the AH to keep themselves well supplied with plat.

That said, I'm not missing the potions as much as I thought I would on my Gimp. Mostly, I am of the opinion that twinking is maybe 10 to 20%, and the experience of the player is 80 to 90% of the difference. How many experienced players have even tried playing a non-twinked lowbie lately?

Also, I think its nice to leave the option open for experienced players to twink their characters to let them shave a bit of leveling time off (many of them are rather bored with the lower level quests).

Best post in the thread. This speaks to the real issue which is not twinking but experience players vs. inexperienced players. Taking away twinking completely at the low levels will not change the dynamics whatsover because the experienced players will still zoom through the quest because they know the quests. If you want to help improve the new player's experience at the low levels which is the money levels for keeping new player's subscriptions you have to really segregate those players from the experienced players. This is assuming that the new players (there are enough new players) will still have somebody to group with if they can not group with experienced players.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with Angleus Dead's concept of allowing vets to skip to level 6 as the only real way to improve the playing experience for new players. This would accomplish segregation of new players from players who are more interested in power levelling to level 6. It could be the 3500 pt favor award. The only caveat is are there enough players out there for new players to group with otherwise this would not be an effective remedy.

[TEK]

I agree with Angleus Dead's concept of allowing vets to skip to level 6 as the only real way to improve the playing experience for new players. This would accomplish segregation of new players from players who are more interested in power levelling to level 6. It could be the 3500 pt favor award. The only caveat is are there enough players out there for new players to group with otherwise this would not be an effective remedy.

well yeah. Would be a nice favor reward to achieve wouldnt.

then you can seperate all the newbies from those mean old vets

[Riorik]

If that was Turbine's objective, they would have provided many more new character slots.

Since they haven't given new slots in ages (which is easy for them to do), clearly they don't have a plan that depends on frequent new alts from old players.

No, it's revenue. I know of multiple guildies that have added 2nd or 3rd accounts -- paying accounts -- just in the last few months because they don't have enough slots. I know of many that have had multiple accounts for years. Some were gifts by friends or acquaintances that left - others bought and worked up from scratch.

I've thought about it. The cost isn't a factor. It's a bit more like, if I made another, I would play another and I'd want to dual box it which is a whole new level of obsessive behavior I think I'd like to avoid.

However, I guess you could say they did provide more slots...you just have to setup an extra account.

[stoc]

Lets stick on topic and not go political, i could go on and on with Bushism's.

These quotes where not placed here for any type of political statement but rather to show that even great men will resort to lies and twisting the language when backed into a corner having been faced with the truth. If you can further drive my point home with a few Bushisms I would welcome them.

[Angelus_dead]

No, it's revenue. I know of multiple guildies that have added 2nd or 3rd accounts -- paying accounts -- just in the last few months because they don't have enough slots. I know of many that have had multiple accounts for years. Some were gifts by friends or acquaintances that left - others bought and worked up from scratch.

Yes, Turbine has made a lot of business mistakes, but that seems too far even for them. To use few character slots as an intentional marketing tactic to lure some customers into doubling-up subscriptions... that's crazy.

[Aeyr]

If that was Turbine's objective, they would have provided many more new character slots.

Since they haven't given new slots in ages (which is easy for them to do), clearly they don't have a plan that depends on frequent new alts from old players.

Well, yes and no. It would make sense to add more character slots for this goal, and I think they have added quite a few to each account already, but I think there's more to it than just that. I know many players that play on multiple servers, so there's already the potential for 5x the number of characters per person which probably helps increase the total number of lowbie players on all servers. I think some players even have multiple accounts, so that's another multiple of potential characters per person, and more income for Turbine too.

I think Baddax had a good idea about comparing an experienced player untwinked with an unexperienced player twinked. That would make a splendid experiment that I'd encourage anyone to try. Of course, you'd have to try it out with a large sample of new and experienced players to get something statistically relevant to compare, and you could never really eliminate some variables, but it would be cool to see the results. However, there's the problem on how to find some acceptable measurement by which to compare a character's relative "effectiveness", and I'd personally be wholly unimpressed by the only metric provided in-game (kill count) as that's only a small part of the story of someone's effectiveness imho-and that subject was beaten to death many many times already in these forums over the years. Perhaps the only real way to compare things as objectively as possible would be to have large groups of unbiased players (inherently nigh impossible to find) run quests with all sorts of players (experienced, unexperienced, twinked, untwinked) and get enough of them (not just a few vocal people) to give their opinions about their relative "effectiveness". Even that kind of analysis wouldn't be perfect, but its better than just our musings.

[Aaxeyu]

That's accurate... but it's a symptom of the problem, not a universal constant. The reason balance doesn't matter before endgame is because you can always get a higher-level character to come in and solve your problems by either feeding you magic items, or simply killing the mob himself.

That is one reason, yes.
Another is that low levels are over pretty fast anyways, and most people want to level fast, (but not necessarily skip it completely), so they like to be overpowered as they can level faster. The same challenge can be found if they want too, in playing a higher level quest.

If some people want faster leveling for additional characters, and the devs decide to give it to them, the way to handle it would be to let them simply start at level 6-9. Can't get faster than that.

If some people want more fun leveling, then the devs would have to ask the question about whether it's more fun to be at matching power to the quest, or overpowered. If they decide that matched power is more fun, then they should obstruct twinking. If they go the other way and decide it's better for player characters to have uber power, they should go and give it to all low-level characters, without a need to twink.

The thing is that removing twinking won't make good players power match the quests.

The bolded part is just absurd and I'm sure that either you or Borro have a name for that kind of flawed arguing.

False. Skill differentials are skill differentials. Where it becomes a problem is when the new player joins up with a twinky and follows him through the quest doing all the same things, but gets different results because his inventory just can't compare.

An easy way to see the difference is to look at a group forming for STK or Tangleroot and see if they're looking for a cleric. If they don't want a cleric, it tells you that twinking is involved.

Skill differentials is a power differential, just as gear differentials. It's a much larger factor too.
A new player can't compete with a veteran even if they have the same items. Unless ofcourse the veteran sucks.

I don't see this as a problem really, but you do. So should we also dumb down the gameplay to wow/lotro levels?
In those games there is a much less difference between veterans and new players in the beginning as playerskill have much less impact on the gameplay.

It's obvious to me that an experienced player will be more powerful than a new player in DDO.

[Angelus_dead]

I think Baddax had a good idea about comparing an experienced player untwinked with an unexperienced player twinked. That would make a splendid experiment that I'd encourage anyone to try.

No, it's completely pointless. The result would have no bearing on any suggestion that's been made.

[Riorik]

Yes, Turbine has made a lot of business mistakes, but that seems too far even for them. To use few character slots as an intentional marketing tactic to lure some customers into doubling-up subscriptions... that's crazy.

I just know my friends have done it. I don't know that it's an evil Turbine plot or part of the marketing plan. There's always been a percentage of players that I've worked with in the past that have done this. The percentage, very subjectively, seems to be going up.

[Aeyr]

No, it's completely pointless. The result would have no bearing on any suggestion that's been made.

An experiment to compare the effectiveness of player ability plus equipment would strike at the very heart of the matter being discussed. Experimentation is much of the very foundation of every bit of scientific knowledge known to humanity. Saying a result of an experiment "would have no bearing on any suggestion that's been made" is incorrect.