Idea for balancing the overpowered firewall

[Kistilan]

true ... but those same 20 mobs can be hit on my Acid Spec'd Wizard with a WoF for 75 per tick running them in a circle 10-20 times...

However I maintain that the problem is the AI. (well maybe the damage spike a little much too )

Aesop

Yeah I'll agree with all that.

PS: You're never in game or not on characters I look for.

[Borror0]

Though sometimes you don't fully explain you PoV

I tend to be lazy, sometimes.

Other times, I have yet to gather all my thoughts and I need more time to be able to explain my argument to other human beings. I have a non-linear way of thinking and bringing my reasoning to a linear way of explaining (you know like, talking or writing) is a very complex task and requires time, and debating with others on small facets of my position makes that easier.

[Aesop]

As much fun as I'm having with this one I have someone waiting for me ... so I'll talk to yall on Monday evening

Aesop

[Borror0]

That's taking the premier DPS spell and drastically changing its concept? I don't think you can do that without a severe amount of player backlash. ... not that backlash is a good reason to NOT do something ... but why tick off your player base when there are better options.

I don't think it makes sense for a level 4 lingering AoE spell to be main contributor to damage, in comparison to single use single target higher level spells.

Which means that unless a character is looking to do less DPS he has no reason to actually cast the spell.

As a damage over time effect, it would increase your overall DPS and would represent a better damage per spell point. Since it would not stack nor would deal massive damage, it would not be enough to simply kite the mob around. Players would also have to use other spells, whether it is CC for the melee to DPS more easily or other DPS spells to take the mob down quicker.

I will make an example with totally made up numbers.

Let's imagine that:
Wall of Fire: 20 damage per tick, 12 ticks; 25 SPs
Cone of Cold: 250 damage; 30 SPs

In that situation, casting Wall of Fire costs you less SPs per damage than casting Cone of Cold would. Not only that, but casting Wall of Fire increases your DPS overtime because the DPS dealt by Wall of Fire adds to the DPS of Cone of Cold. However, Cone of Cold offers better burst DPS and is faster, which makes it useful to use.

With Cone of Cold, you get your 250 damage instantly rather than needing to wait ages for a mere 240.

You create a persistant AoE that once a target passes through it is affected by the DoT.
There after until the DoT has expired he doesn't take additional effects from WoF.
Then once that DoT has Expired he can be effected again.

I would probably synchronize the duration of the DoT to whatever time there is to Wall of Fire.

If the Answer is more then DD spells then they'd be better off running in circles and forcing the Mob back through a Wall to reup the DoT when it ha

Time is an invaluable resource. I don't want to spend ten hours in a quest.

Not to mention that, unless you are soloing, you might not be kiting but rather have melee character get trampled by the mobs' DPS. In that case, it is far more effective to have a lot of DPS to lower the cost on the clerics' spell points.

[BlackSteel]

instead of fire immunity, why not give a good deal of monsters exceptional fire resistance.

We can get 50-60 resistance to an element (30 item +15 shroud + 6 class + boost), why shouldnt the mobs be able to do the same. A monster with 1000 HP and 60 fire resist is going to take a long time to cook, especially since firewalls dont stack (unless the mob is very very tall). This allows all fire spells to still be useful, since DBF and their friends deal their damage in one large chunk.

[epochofcrepuscule]

1. Giving the caster damage from his own spell is ridiculous-and the better do it to all allies as well. Wall of fire hit everyone, fireball hit everyone, if you get in front of scorching ray-to bad your dead. You cant do it for just one spell-that's not how any game works. Mentioning that fact alone is a sign of stupidity-who is going to use spells that are going to do damage not only yourself-but your team as well? 30 fire resist, yay, my scorching ray will still kill anyone who gets in its way that is not big on HP. Use the PvP arena to test out resist fire 30 before you suggest something that ridiculous. Think before you speak please.

2. Giving other mobs fire resistance is once again ridiculous-they don't have it according to the MM so why should they have it ingame? They want to make this related to DnD, not just use the base of it and create something else. Also, if you have problem with how firewall works, look it up in the PHB and make suggestions accordingly. Same spell, same rules. Some of these rules are not followed-I will let your bright minds look it up and figure it out.

3. So it makes leveling up easier, who cares. At endgame this spell is the most worthless spell in the game. If you are a mod 8 fan, not so much. But who likes mod 8? Ahh, thats right-its the worst mod yet-well besides mod 9 most likely. If you all really wanted balance according to DnD-apply spell resis.... oops, I almost gave away what you should look for in point #2.

[BlackSteel]

2. Giving other mobs fire resistance is once again ridiculous-they don't have it according to the MM so why should they have it ingame? figure it out.

If they're not supposed to have it, sure I agree with you. But theres no reason that if a monster is listed in the manual as having 10 resistance, that it couldnt have 40, or 50, or 60 resistance in DDO. Afterall we're not talking the same CR level either. Neither would it hurt for enemy casters to place resist energy on monsters that dont innately have resistance. Shouldnt a trog shaman buff all his melee buddies with GH and resist fire just like we do? They can load into the quest with the buffs already active.

If you want to firewall the critters you'll have to dispell em first.

[Meriadeuc]

From my perspective, all that would result of that is a very unpopular spell and a lot of griefing.

Not necessarily. Have the firewall do damage to the person who cast it but not to the other members of the party. Of course, there would still be come issues with firewalls in doorways that the rest of the party is blocking, but at least it would take stop the kiting-through-the-firewall gimick.

[Coldest]

Strategically place Mordekain's Foam Fire Extinguishers in all dungeouns.

[Borror0]

Not necessarily. Have the firewall do damage to the person who cast it but not to the other members of the party. Of course, there would still be come issues with firewalls in doorways that the rest of the party is blocking, but at least it would take stop the kiting-through-the-firewall gimick.

It would also make the spell really frustrating, which was implied in my "very unpopular" clause.

[Slam]

Nerf FW *after* Vorpals are nerfed. In fact, Nerf it when all GS items are nerfed. Remove all weapons from the game except Mastwork clubs. Then by all means, nerf FW.

Until then, don't touch it.

[redspecter23]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but would it balance Wall of Fire in any meaningful way if a fear effect were tacked on to it? All non intelligent mobs that would normally be immune to fear effects (the majority of undead, oozes, constructs) would behave as they currently do. Any intelligent creature would take one hit from the wall and then take off. You could still sort of corral them into dead ends or web or fog to keep them in place longer, but it would take a bit more effort. I'm not saying I necessarily want a change myself, but this seems like a fairly simple fix compared to some other suggestions and seems like a more "realistic" mob reaction.

[moorewr]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before, but would it balance Wall of Fire in any meaningful way if a fear effect were tacked on to it? All non intelligent mobs that would normally be immune to fear effects (the majority of undead, oozes, constructs) would behave as they currently do. Any intelligent creature would take one hit from the wall and then take off. You could still sort of corral them into dead ends or web or fog to keep them in place longer, but it would take a bit more effort. I'm not saying I necessarily want a change myself, but this seems like a fairly simple fix compared to some other suggestions and seems like a more "realistic" mob reaction.

If the duration of the fear effect was very short (or was localized to the fire itself, this could be a clever way to approach it. After all, if I found myself in a wall of fire, it would scare the hell out of me.

[epochofcrepuscule]

If they're not supposed to have it, sure I agree with you. But theres no reason that if a monster is listed in the manual as having 10 resistance, that it couldnt have 40, or 50, or 60 resistance in DDO. Afterall we're not talking the same CR level either. Neither would it hurt for enemy casters to place resist energy on monsters that dont innately have resistance. Shouldnt a trog shaman buff all his melee buddies with GH and resist fire just like we do? They can load into the quest with the buffs already active.

If you want to firewall the critters you'll have to dispell em first.

If they have innate resistance-by all means increase it, balance it a little. I fully disagree with buffing up mobs though. If you ran into a grp of 12 just as buffed as you-bard songs, gh, resists, all the good stuff.... well.... resources are gonna start burning up fast for clerics and casters. Not to mention-the b****ing and moaning you would see on the forums for the next several weeks/months. Imagine-12 ogres as buffed as you-they hit hard enough as is. Fully buffed AC wouldnt mean a thing-no matter how high you got yours. I wouldn't mind seeing them cast resist on themselves though.... if your enemy has thrown melfs on you/buddy-its only a natural thought, "hey lets get myself/buddy acid resist". Shoot, they are smart enough to cast, give them a boost as to what they should cast.

[Borror0]

If the duration of the fear effect was very short (or was localized to the fire itself, this could be a clever way to approach it. After all, if I found myself in a wall of fire, it would scare the hell out of me.

If the duration is short, it only means that the creature would into it.. then out... then in... then out... then in... then out...

...while getting nuked from afar.

[moorewr]

If the duration is short, it only means that the creature would into it.. then out... then in... then out... then in... then out...

...while getting nuked from afar.

Yes, but an extended fear would mean you could corner them and kill them while they were feared. The biggest defect is that you cna fight in the fire and some of your opponents get debuffed on top of the spell damage.

I see the sense now of making the fire damage `directional' (like PnP) - that would make it tactically more like blade barrier.

[Borror0]

Yes, but an extended fear would mean you could corner them and kill them while they were feared. The biggest defect is that you cna fight in the fire and some of your opponents get debuffed on top of the spell damage.

...which why making WoF bestow fear is a flawed proposal:

• If the duration is short, the mobs will feel and run back inn loop, basically giving 100% protection to the players.
• If the duration is long, then it becomes an overpowered version of the Fear spell.

I see the sense now of making the fire damage `directi
onal' (like PnP) - that would make it tactically more like blade barrier.

You lost me there.

[boldarblood]

Friendly Fire would be a big mistake.

I take it that most people have never played a pug where friendly fire is turned on. It is not bad when you know everyone on the team, and you know you will not get any grief.

In a random pug it can/will be bad. Just wait to see the venom in the people posts the first time some barb gets fod by a caster. It will happen. It has happened in every game I have played with Friendly Fire (some first person shooters add it). The griefing does happen.

I would much rather deal with an overpowered spell, than a griefing ahole.

And people who constantly ask for nerfs are pathetic. It gets old. This game is not a contest, its PvE not PvP.

[SimVerg]

As a damage over time effect, it would increase your overall DPS and would represent a better damage per spell point. Since it would not stack nor would deal massive damage, it would not be enough to simply kite the mob around. Players would also have to use other spells, whether it is CC for the melee to DPS more easily or other DPS spells to take the mob down quicker.

I will make an example with totally made up numbers.

Let's imagine that:
Wall of Fire: 20 damage per tick, 12 ticks; 25 SPs
Cone of Cold: 250 damage; 30 SPs

In that situation, casting Wall of Fire costs you less SPs per damage than casting Cone of Cold would. Not only that, but casting Wall of Fire increases your DPS overtime because the DPS dealt by Wall of Fire adds to the DPS of Cone of Cold. However, Cone of Cold offers better burst DPS and is faster, which makes it useful to use.

With Cone of Cold, you get your 250 damage instantly rather than needing to wait ages for a mere 240.

Wait, how is this different than the way it currently is?

[Borror0]

Wait, how is this different than the way it currently is?

Three big differences:

• The damage dealt by WoF is so high that you don't need much, really
• If you need more speed, the best way is to throw a bug of WoF and drag mobs around
• WoF stack, but would not if changed to how I proposed