Capstones before 20?

[DSC]

This is probably already too late to matter, but I was just looking over the current capstones and thinking: maybe (in an ideal world), "capstones" should apply to any pure-class character, whether level 2 or level 20?

Obviously this wouldn't work with most of the capstones as written, but some of them already seem the kind of low-level buff that would be reasonable at any level, and others could be reworked or scaled to function that way.

Aside from adding flavor to pure-class characters before they hit cap, I also think this could be better balance-wise. After all, your splash in Fighter/Rogue/Monk/whatever adds benefit immediately - why should the pure-class characters have to wait until 20 before they see an added benefit from their choice?

[Draccus]

When I first read this, I thought you were nuts. However, something else made me realize that the intent is probably in the right direction.

The mistake DDO made was to not implement the experience penalty associated with Multiclassing. Yes, multiclass characters can be more powerful but that power often comes with a price. In DDO, it's just free, unbalanced uberness.

Giving an earlier benefit to staying pure would indirectly return a tiny bit of balance.

[Irongutz2000]

Thats why we have Pre's like tempest/ kensi/ warchanter..........the capstones r for "CAP"

[krud]

Thats why we have Pre's like tempest/ kensi/ warchanter..........the capstones r for "CAP"

The problem is it won't always be "cap". When level 22 comes about, what's going to be so special about those capstones? They will be just another enhancement, with no special meaning. Will there have to be capstones for every cap increase?

[Riorik]

I think he's right. At level 21+ it won't be a capstone anymore. It only makes sense if there is no intention to ever raise the limit again.

[Tanka]

The mistake DDO made was to not implement the experience penalty associated with Multiclassing. Yes, multiclass characters can be more powerful but that power often comes with a price. In DDO, it's just free, unbalanced uberness.

You try making it so an XP hit actually matters in a game that has functionally limitless XP gain.

Giving an earlier benefit to staying pure would indirectly return a tiny bit of balance.

You mean like Sorcs doubling SP gained from equipment? Yeah, they should do something similar for a lot of classes. Especially Monks.

[Starlytes]

I just want to pass along...unless something has been mentioned of late in regards to lvl increase over 20....thats all they planned on doing as lvls go... will go off in a clean up the game content...make more content ... maybe even an expansion pak direction (altho that hasnt been tossed around since lvl cap was 10)...Sooooo Capstone is just that.. U R Capped...

have a nice day

I have no proof of any of this it is all hearsay and specutaion and....besides that
I bame Spisey because well its just fun to blame him for any and all things.

[Angelus_dead]

You try making it so an XP hit actually matters in a game that has functionally limitless XP gain.

Easy: an XP penalty is not only assessed against your XP income, but also your XP limit.

However, it would be a mistake to pursue that approach, just like it was a mistake in D&D.

You mean like Sorcs doubling SP gained from equipment? Yeah, they should do something similar for a lot of classes. Especially Monks.

Although it's important to avoid front-loaded features, the sorc SP thing was a weak way to do it.

The designers of a multiclassed game should strive to prevent situations where you lose ability by gaining a level. Level advancement is supposed to be a positive thing, so perverse incentives to not level should be avoided. In the case of sorc SP, it's not important enough to really matter- but in general, losing powers by going up is a pitfall.

Whether or not it's worth it to suffer that flaw in exchange for de-frontloading a feature is conditional.

[Tanka]

Easy: an XP penalty is not only assessed against your XP income, but also your XP limit.

However, it would be a mistake to pursue that approach, just like it was a mistake in D&D.

Agreed. It's possible to do, but it would basically kill the entire reason multiclassing exists.

In PnP, the balancing factor is the possiblity of frontloaded abilities like Divine Grace or Evasion at the expense of a 10% XP hit, putting you that much behind your party. However, gaining either ability usually makes up for it at the end of the day.

Usually, of course, being the key word.

Although it's important to avoid front-loaded features, the sorc SP thing was a weak way to do it.

The designers of a multiclassed game should strive to prevent situations where you lose ability by gaining a level. Level advancement is supposed to be a positive thing, so perverse incentives to not level should be avoided. In the case of sorc SP, it's not important enough to really matter- but in general, losing powers by going up is a pitfall.

Whether or not it's worth it to suffer that flaw in exchange for de-frontloading a feature is conditional.

The thing with the Sorc bonus is, even without it, most Sorcs would still be over 2000SP. Compared to Wizards who hit, what, 1600 if they take both MTs and a few levels of the SP Enhancement? There isn't really a reason to have the doubling of SP gained from items other than as a flavor standpoint -- Sorcs are good at blowing things up fast and hard, Wizards are good at using the right spell at the right time.

De-frontloading an ability would be a balancing factor, but it would take the right amount of balance to get it right. I'm not entirely certain the Devs could get it right the first time. Or the second. Or even the fifth.

[Dracolich]

You try making it so an XP hit actually matters in a game that has functionally limitless XP gain.

you can, instead of somone capping at 159,999 xp(whatever it is) at level 16 rank 4. You cap multiclassed characters at 20% less. Just dont let them get the last few ranks in 16. It isnt limitless XP in this game, we are capped just move the caps depending on your situation and there you have penalties for multiclassing. Its kinda like the ECL of a character thats a human Vs say a Minataur PC. Give somone penalties for getting the benefit.

[Hokiewa]

if you all believe that levels beyond 20 are gonna be added to the game.....

ahaha, keep dreaming

[Noctus]

In PnP, the balancing factor is the possiblity of frontloaded abilities like Divine Grace or Evasion at the expense of a 10% XP hit,

In Pen&Paper the XP-Penalty hits 1% of the Min/Max builds and 60% of the Flavor Builds.
Its one of the biggest incentives to min/max, to not get hit by this penalty.
Also in Pen&Paper you have Prestigeclasses, so that you have 5 levels to spend in regular classes the most if you optimise.

For example:
2 Paladin / 2 Monk / 1 Fighter ---> Prestige Class of your liking. ---> Hard minmaxing , no XP penalty gained, ever.

6 Bard / 1 Fighter. ---> XP penalty. take that melee-oriented bard for not optimising. Ha Ha Haaar! *mustachio twirl*


Its not a balancing factor, its a "lets kick those on the shin wo did not go for build optimisation even more" rule.

I DMed several groups since 3.0 came out and the "multiclass XP penalty is gone" was the 1st houserule created. In the 2nd campaing. To lessen the gap between optimisers who plan whats best and stick to it, and non-optimisers who just think that their fighter might take a level of Ranger, just because he spend 2 level-ups and half a year in the deep wilderness hunting the Ork-King.....

[Tanka]

you can, instead of somone capping at 159,999 xp(whatever it is) at level 16 rank 4. You cap multiclassed characters at 20% less. Just dont let them get the last few ranks in 16. It isnt limitless XP in this game, we are capped just move the caps depending on your situation and there you have penalties for multiclassing. Its kinda like the ECL of a character thats a human Vs say a Minataur PC. Give somone penalties for getting the benefit.

It was a bad idea in PnP, it's a bad idea in DDO.

Obvious reasons: raid loot ML needs to be readjusted, powerlevel penalty needs to be readjusted, raids need to be adjusted for lower BABs/spell levels/whatever.

If there's anything that would make me (and many others) leave the game faster; it's an artificial and unnecessary penalty to multiclassing.

[frugal_gourmet]

I have this feeling epic levels may be handled differently and not like regular leveling, thus keeping capstones true "class" capstones.

[Scalion]

I have this feeling epic levels may be handled differently and not like regular leveling, thus keeping capstones true "class" capstones.

I agree with this post. While a game like this will need progression even after the cap reaches level 20, I imagine they'll take a different approach to advancement once level 20 is obtainable. Capstone, by the very definition included in the word itself, is for a character who is "Capped" as a pure class.

[Uska]

The problem is it won't always be "cap". When level 22 comes about, what's going to be so special about those capstones? They will be just another enhancement, with no special meaning. Will there have to be capstones for every cap increase?

20 will always be cap as beyond that is epic

[DSC]

I have this feeling epic levels may be handled differently and not like regular leveling, thus keeping capstones true "class" capstones.

Well, my OP suggestion was not specifically to address the issue of 21+, but more the issue of 2-19. Obviously, capstones could be viewed simply as a cool Level 20 Enhancement, but they were suggested as a way to slightly reward pure classes... and since multiclassing is worthwhile at low levels, it would seem to be appropriate there too.

[Azdraugnor]

I have this feeling epic levels may be handled differently and not like regular leveling, thus keeping capstones true "class" capstones.

Perhaps they'll use the "pseudo epic levels" that were in 3.0s FR handbook. Hopefully a more balanced version, though.

I expect they won't ever go to epic levels, though.

[Milolyen]

if you all believe that levels beyond 20 are gonna be added to the game.....

ahaha, keep dreaming

I think it will be awhile before they do epic lvls but I do think they will. My guess would be about a year to a year and half.

Well, my OP suggestion was not specifically to address the issue of 21+, but more the issue of 2-19. Obviously, capstones could be viewed simply as a cool Level 20 Enhancement, but they were suggested as a way to slightly reward pure classes... and since multiclassing is worthwhile at low levels, it would seem to be appropriate there too.

And in response someone pointed out the Pre's, A pure class will get access to these enhancements at lower lvls than a multiclass will if a multiclass will at all. For instance, more than 2 lvls of multiclass and you will not be able to get the third teir PRE at all.

Also wanted to agree with frugal in that they will most likely handle epic lvls differently as we have already seen them handle the lvl 20 cap differently than they have all the other lvl caps.

Milolyen